World Classical Tamil Conference – A Perspective
TweetUpdated 27 June 2010 6:45PM - The 78 page conference schedule is online at the wctc2010 site for those that want to use data to test MSS Pandian’s assertions that i refer below.
Updated 27 June 2010 6:45PM: Several people asked me how much time it took to do the research. The hypothesis was published on this blog as a post . I had formulated the hypothesis a few months before publishing. It took me nearly a year from then to collect the evidences needed, although the paper is only 5 pages long.
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My paper presentation
It was a great honor for me to present at this conference. My presentation was alongside Asko Parpola, the man who won the Classical Tamil award from the government. I presented my paper on 25th June 2010 at the conference. As it turned out, the prior track in the same room was delayed by 20-30 min and i got allotted 10-12 min by Session Chair Dr. Iravatham Mahadevan. Fortunately, i had prepared the previous night to deliver it in 10 min anticipating such schedule issues. On the day i managed to finish it in 9 min 30 seconds.
I had recorded my talk and have uploaded the slides with audio to slideshare and it is embedded below.
Session Chairman’s comments
Mahadevan Sir mentioned in his closing comments that as a 81 year old he was passing the baton to young researchers like me, which made me swell with pride. Another proud moment – later after we got down from the dais, he said “we have been looking at the seal for 40+ years and you are the first one to find the differences in the bangle in the same seal”.
Thank you all
A thank you to all my colleagues and twitter pals and my family for encouraging me every step of the way in the conduct of my research. As a newbie researcher into the IVC (just over 2 years), it is a huge honor for me that my paper was selected for the conference amongst the 1000s of papers that were submitted.
Responding to Right Wing Criticisms Hurled at the Conference
Before i begin, i want to make sure you all know that i have no political connections to the DMK party or its members.
The first set of criticisms come from the right wing Hindutva folks for whom any linguistic pride in anything other than Sanskrit or Hindi is Chauvinism. This is pure unadulaterated bullshit. That India should speak one language and have one religion is based upon very very outdated theories on nation-building. One would think that with the demise of the Soviet Union that such outdated theories will be in the dustbin. Not so for our right wing which still wants to cling to it.
Obviously due to the fact that the conference is about Tamil’s antiquity, several paeans to Tamil was sung. Any one with a half a brain engaged in research can easily tell that Tamil’s antiquity is well-supported by incontrovertible evidence. And that the Dravidian language family is likely older than Sanskrit and Indo Aryan Languages in the Indian Subcontinent. There is enough evidence to support this claim as well for those who will look with an open mind.
Responding to Scholarly Criticism
Some scholars that i respect have also criticized the conference. This article by MSS Pandian of N Delhi is an example. Some of his criticism about the extravagance is probably reasonable. In all fairness to the TN Govt, any event of such scale where several lakhs of people attended, is bound to raise questions of extravagance. But we expect more from a scholar like Pandian. Let us look at this statement from his article:
The academic sessions, which are going to be intellectually enervating, have no less than 20 papers on Karunanidhi and five on his daughter Kanimozhi. If Karunanidhi has claimed that about 5000 scholars from all over India are participating in the conference, he has his own standards of scholarship.
I doubt if Pandian even cared to look at the conference agenda. I have the agenda with me and i looked through it. There were approximately 1200 papers and i could count 6 or 7 papers dealing with MK’s and Kanimozhi’s literary works [Not to mention that MK is a serious and legit Tamil scholar]. Let us give the benefit of doubt to Pandian and assume it is 25 papers. 25 out 0f 1200 comes to 2%. I personally attended several paper presentations and the amount and the high quality of research being discussed is just mind-boggling. To dismiss all the 1200 papers because 25 are potentially tainted is ridiculous. We expect better from people like Pandian.
My Own Impresions
There were 2 parts to the conference – the public part and the research part. The public part drew several lakh people and was chaotic much like any tourist trade fair. The agenda was also quite political to further the interests of the DMK party. The research part is where i spent most of my time. It was a spectacular conference with all the arrangements nearly flawless. Students from local colleges were the volunteer force and they did a very good job of running the conference. the food/sanitation arrangements were extremely good. The CODISSIA hall is world class. I hope all of the facilities are not temporary. It doesn’t look like they were but i wasn’t sure. On the whole, i think the TN Govt must be congratulated for putting up such a grand event. Wonder why such a research conference doesn’t take place atleast once in 2 years.
Conclusion
I believe that India’s strength is its diversity. Language is a key element of that diversity. I wish all the major languages of India hold such research conferences and encourage true research in the respective languages so that we don’t lose the priceless heritage available in every language.
Additional Notes & References:
1. Asko Parpola’s acceptance speech. The Hindu has uploaded his entire dissertation online.
2. Asko Parpola presented his theory on the Wild Ass just before my presentation. It was a brilliant presentation with the depth of research that is stupendous. You can read Parpola’s Op Ed on the subject in The Hindu.
2. Madhan Karky has uploaded some pictures from the event.
3. You can read the coverage of the event on twitter by several people including myself at the hashtag #WCTC.
Nice presentation of your Bangle Hypothesis and Double = Great, should open ways to many other discovery.
Congrats sukumar! Interesting hypothesis and a nice lightning talk to sum it up!
Thanks a lot for your kind words Celestine and Jassi.
Great work . And accept 100 percent with your views on wctc .
Sukumar: Great! Wish you all the best in your research.
Wow Sukumar. Must have been quite an exprience presenting a paper in the presence of people like Mr.Mahadevan and Mr.Parpola.
I am hoping I can make it to Mr.Parpola’s lecture in RMRL tomorrow evening.
Very interesting presentation. Short and very interesting. Held my interest till the very end.
Thanks for your kind words Sudharsan and Lakshman.
Thanks Revs. Yes, i was a bit nervous because of the presence of stalwarts like Mahadevan and Parpola.
I plan to be at Parpola’s lecture tomorrow as well.
Thanks for your kind words about my presentation. Glad you liked it.
Sukumar,
First of all Congratulations!!!.
Getting an opportunity & being able to present your research work in the World Classical Tamil Conference is a great honor. I am sure that the minute you finished your presentation and heard the claps must have been a very satisfying & happy moment.
I have been following your twitter updates which made us see the event through your eyes. While that was a broadcast of the happenings in the event….. through this blog post, you have covered the event with your perspectives/views and hence has made us see this event through your mind. And I also listened to your recorded talk on “Bangle Tradition in the IVC Symbology”. It was interesting. Thanks for sharing the same.
And your response/views on the “Right wing Criticism” and “Scholarly Criticisms” shows your unbiased views.
Thanks for taking time to cover this event through twitter & facebook amidst preparing for your presenting in this event and finally summing it up through this blog post.
HI Suku,
Bumped into your article and reserach work just now. Seems quite a lot of science-like research has gone into your presentation that is well structured and presented.
You bring the same rigour of your work to hobby too.
Congratulations,
Srikanth
Hi Sukumar,
Great achievement. We at the sastwingees community are privileged to read your hypothesis before it is presented such a great forum.
Double == Great is very proven term. Even in our caste system, Brahmins are called Dwijulu – meaning people with two janmas (or two lifes). This is based on the theory that they are reborn after they wear Yagnopaveetham or Jandhyam.
I agree with your views on the political aspects of such a conference. I think in popular politics, that is to be expected.
Sukumar,
I am one of those condemned persons, who dont agree with parpola
..
I could not agree with parpolas fish interpretation.. even i can cite my own interpretation.. the Fish symbol was used as emblem by the pandyas.. hence i propose a hypothesis that the pandyas were the real dravidian who descended from the people of IVC.. i can collect many similar icons from pandya kingdom and IVC site, and then go on to produce more and more details.. there is no end to such hypothesis if we unleash our creativity..
And i read our CM saying that it is the tamils who taught Egyptians the language.. any thoughts??
I will list out my points regarding this tamil conference….
–> Tamil grammar was written by Tholkappiar, who is a brahmin and he knew sanskrit too.. but this fact is suppressed in the conference, because it will shake the fundamental dravidian ideology..
–>the conference has become a ground for ideological battleground (atleast from popular media news).. many topics in the schedule revolves around this dravidian ideology..
–> the actual criticism of the rightwingers (NOT necessarily the hindutvadis or the RSS) are NOT quoted in this post.. rather what i could see here is that they are simply being labelled here..
Nice work Sukumar! I don’t really trust our media to bring out the real picture behind anything. this event just reinforced that belief
Given that language is a prime part of the whole culture and origin debate and AIT/AMT is such a touchy topic, no wonder it is politicised and you have nuts of all types on all sides
So for people without political leanings, the only option is adopt a scientific approach and attempt to find the truth. of course, it is important at the same time that the findings aren’t given a political tinge and twisted out of context like our politicos are so wont to 
anyway, its pretty interesting that proto-dravidian seems to be a possibility in the ivc (i hope i’m read it right). given that we don’t really know what happ to these people who were spread out over an area stretching from modern day afghanistan to lothal in gujarat, do we have any clue as to what exactly happened to these people? did they just gradually decline?
Could you give a primer to decrypting the ivc script ? a place to start? and of course, a rebuttal of any claims and counter-claims made. its important especially when we’re grappling to decipher it
Hi Sukumar
Brilliant, the hypothesis presented with great confidence.It is definitely great honor for you to present it in one of the world’s largest conference. Way to go and hard-work never fails.
All the criticisms are our people always have to say something after a big gathering like after marriage people criticize mainly food’s taste etc. As you said, the research part was brilliantly organized,thats what i’m read from various news outlets.
I think WWTC organizers have to think about include other language’s pride and there influence in Tamil also. For example, lot of Tamil words still used Sanskrit words. Malayalam, Telugu and Kannada has lot of similar words from Tamil. My point is rather than narrow down to one, they have to acknowledge others also. As always, Tamil language have to take responsibility to lead by example for others to encourage to preserve their language’s heritage.
Subba
Hi Sukumar,
Excellent presentation and interesting insights on usage/relevance of 2 in IVC. You made an interesting point that IVC could be inhabited dravidian people and that dravidian languages have been for several years before indo-aryan ones like Sanskrit. Several scholars recently though have refuted the idea of dravidian/aryan races stating there was no such thing and present day races emanated from the same source. If IVC was indeed inhabited by dravidians, it is interesting to figure out how they moved south later.
Sukumar – it is mind boggling to see the amount of data that you have collected and the hypothesis looks so convincing. I think it must taken quite an effort to go through several articles, papers, dictionaries (references you had made in your deck). Congratulations on this great achievement! Wish you many more such accolades in your Indus Valley Research project.
Thamizh as you have said in your post should certainly be a very old language and I am also of the view that it should be preserved and however I am of the view that other languages should not be seen as a competition to Thamizh.
Congrats once again!
Congratulations Sukumar. Must have been a great feeling to present in the Tamil World Conference. Thanks for sharing. Its really good to see somone able to follow their Passion
Sukumar,
Liked the presentation. I can understand the context a little more now.
As on the criticisms, I think it is a basic human nature that everybody “MUST” have an opinion about everything or rather have a judgement ready like good,bad,interesting,boring etc. I guess it is difficult for humans just to do things and let systems take its course.
Not to mention the stage this kind of an event gives to every tom,dick & harry to voice his “facts”.
But one really good thing that struck me was the presentation is in english, which is an evidence itself that content mattered more that presenation. I guess the gulliable part is as they in tamil – “Even if you drink milk under a palm tree it is considered toddy”.
Can’t do much about that. When a cultural event is hosted by a strong region based political party this is a fallout.
Sukumar,
Very informative and well structured. Amazing time management, glad to see your other side of it.
Thanks for sharing.
-Baskar
Sukumar,
Excellent and nice try… Once again you have proved and you are an inspiration for all of us…
Thanks
Siva Guruvareddiar
Great presentation Sukumar. Congratulations on your acheivement. I hope you get to attain your long standing dream of deciphering the indus script.
Congrats Sukumar..Comendable job from you.Grt work.
On a different note:Many more happy returns of the day
Wonderful presentation, Sukumar and congratulations
Reading your earlier posts on IVC, been inspired to learn more on this subject…
And a happy b’day to you as well.
Dear Sukumar, I am really glad you got to present at a such a venue. Fantastic research but like some others on the board, I was wondering why the presentation was in English? Is it becasue of the target audience? I watched snippets on Sun TV and was amazed to see such organization and professionalism in the event planning in terms of venue, audio, video, layout etc. Great job and wish you more luck with your research.
Dear Sukumar,
Excellent presentation! The narrative and the defense of the hypothesis was clear and logical. Above all, this is the first time since school that I have actually listened to something about the IVC!
And I wish history was taught in schools this way…it would be a lot more fun.
Super presentation Sukumar. Speechless! And a good blog as well!
Srini,
Thanks for your kind words. Happy to hear that you were tracking tweets as well. Yes, i am very happy that i was able to attend the conference and present my paper in the presence of stalwarts.
Srikanth,
What a surprise to hear from you on this blog. Thanks a lot for your kind words.
Vamsi,
Thanks for your kind words. The term you refer in telugu is from the sanskrit Dwija – in fact all the upper castes in the Varnashrama Dharma are Dwijas. I think this is a loan from Dravidian.
Senthil,
1. If you don’t agree with Parpola, you need to write a scientific paper opposing his views and get it published in a peer reviewed journal. That is only if you want your opinion to be heard by the Indus research community. If that is not your intent, you are free to hold any opinion that you feel like having.
2. I heard the speeches that MK made. I don’t recall him saying anything like that. If he did say such a thing, that opinion is incorrect per the historical evidences we have today.
3. First the right wing has to make up its mind as to whether the caste system is a British invention or not. Currently the right wing claims that the caste system didn’t exist before the British came. Tholkappiyar for your information supposedly lived in the 1st or 2nd Century BCE approx 1600 years before the British arrival. Can you show me any evidence that he is a Brahmin? Please don’t point me to right wing propaganda sites. The only thing i will consider as an evidence is research paper published in an international or national journal of repute. If you don’t have that evidence, please stop this thread.
4. As usual you didn’t read my post. If you read my post you will know that there were 2 parts to the conference, the public part and the research part. Please take sometime and read the post before commenting.
5. Right wing hardly ever produces any criticism that is based upon data or evidence. From their point of view, as i said in my post, if you have pride about anything other than Hinduism, Sanksrit and Hindi, you are a chauvinist. In fact, you wrote this tweet
http://twitter.com/nativethoughts/status/16979141850 about WCTC which propagates that rightwing viewpoint with no basis in evidence or facts.
Sriram,
Thanks. IVC Research is a complex topic. There is plenty of material on the Internet. You may want to read some of the past posts i have written on this blog about IVC. if you don’t want to do that, you can try Harappa.com it has several papers that you can read.
Thanks Subba for your kind words. There were several papers presented in the conference about Tamil’s impact on Malayalam, Telugu etc.
Prakash,
Thanks for your kind words. If you truly want to understand whether Aryans came from the outside, you may want to read my older post http://www.sastwingees.org/2008/02/24/the-real-history-of-india-part-6-aryan-invasion-theory/
That Dravidians were driven to the South by the Invading Aryans is a very old theory. However, there is some evidence that some clans from the Harappan Gujarat area may have migrated south – this has some sparse references in the Sangam text as the Velir Migration. My guide Dr. Mahadevan believes firmly in this migration, but i have not convinced myself that this could have happened. My operating opinion at this time is that India was populated by Dravidian and Austro-Asiatic peoples, the Aryans arrive from the West and Aryanize India first in a West to East corridor and then a North South Corridor (of course this is an oversimplification because there are still several non Aryanized pockets across India).
Hope that helps.
Rams,
Thanks for your kind words. I don’t know where this notion of competition between languages comes from? In my view, as i said in the conclusion in my post, every language has to preserve its heritage, conduct research etc., otherwise we will see our old languages die slowly which will be a loss to India and to humanity. Hope that helps?
Thanks for the kind words Kavitha. Yes i am happy that i am able to follow my passion and conduct some research.
Thanks Kumaran. It is interesting that you view the presentation being made in English as evidence of Content being more important than the language, whereas some other commenters have observed on this blog post that the preso should have been in Tamil. Actually, i am also of the same view as you. Had the organizers been real chauvinists as the right wing is making them out to be, they could have forced the presenters to present in English. They didn’t do that. In fact, all the presenters in the Indus track including Parpola and Mahadevan presented in English. No one complained about that.
Baskar and Siva,
thanks for your kind words.
Archana,
Thanks for your kind words and wishes.
Karthik and Archana Madhubala,
Thanks for your kind words and wishes. Archana, glad this made you learn more about the IVC.
Thanks MD for your kind words. Yes, because the language of business in the Indus community is English, we all presented in English. There were a lot of researchers who are not Tamilians and hence this worked out better. And yes, the conf organization on the research side was superb.
Thanks a lot for your kind words Raghu. And yes, even i wish history was taught in a better manner in the grade school. I also wish that i had taken history a lot more seriously than i did.
Thanks a lot for your kind words Kartheeban. Glad you enjoyed my speech.
Congratulations Sukumar on reaching the frontier of professional and scientific history : dissemination of your work in the league of historians mentioned above. Best Wishes.
Thanks for the kind words Abdul.
Sukumar,
I was looking for actual contents of criticism from the so called right wingers in this post.. but you have not yet provided that so far.. In your last comment too, your hatred for right wingers is very evident and you have dragged caste system to further banish them.. the fact is that even the right wingers oppose the caste system very much.. It is only Me who had argued in support of caste system..
I have already proven in the previous discussion of this very blog, that present day caste system is a very much a british creation.. I am armed with more details now, and i can prove further if we have a discussion in separate post.. discussion in this post will be deviating..
Btw, I happened to read the MOM of the parpola’s speech at the following blog of vedaprakash..
http://ontogenyphylogenyepigenetcs.wordpress.com/2010/06/30/%E2%80%9Cthe-indus-script-harappan-dravidian-and-the-wild-ass%E2%80%9D-by-asko-parpola-and-the-debate-thereafter/
Tholkappiar as a brahmin:
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Nachinarkiniar was the first to explain the grammar of tholkappiam .. in that the real name of tholkappiar is mentioned as DhiranaDhoomaakkini (திரணதூமாக்கினி) , essentially a sanskrit name.. the tamil equivalent of this name is “pulathiyan” (புலத்தியன்).
Its very well known that tholkappiar is a disciple of Sage Agastya.. all these indirectly confirm he is a brahmana.. (NOT brahmin) .. since there is no other sources available related to tholkappiyar, we have to infer from the available ones..
Aindram school of grammar is one of the sanskrit grammar mentioned in panini’s Ashtadhyayi.. and Ilampuranar, one of the tamil grammarians of 12th century, describes tolkappiam as “Aindiram Nirainda Tholkappiam”.. also in the preface tof tolkappiyam, it is mentioned that the author was well versed in aindram..
These evidences indicate, the rich interaction of sanskrit and tamil, and their mutual influence.. And more importantly, the Dravidian concept of linguistics is shaken here..
Few points in support of sanskrit – tamil relations in ancient time:
–> Tholkappiam has three books – ezhuthathikaram, porulathikaram and sollathikaram .. the name “athikaram” is a sanskrit word..
–> The term “sangha” itself is a prakrutha word.. meaning coclave or conference.. in budhist history, they have established baudha sangha at various places to promote budhism.. the use of word sangha is NOT exclusive to tamil alone..
–> The word “kaappiyam” itself is a translated word of “kaavyam”..
–> Other such words are: katha – Kathai ; kala – kalai ; manushya – manithan ; etc..
Thus we find that, if we analyse without locking ourselves to any identity, we have lot of things to explore and understand..
Tamil Racism:
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I think you are exaggerating about right wingers.. Its the tamil dravidian group who spit venom on sanskrit.. and no right winger had spoken ill of tamil yet..
However, i myself fight with those right wingers on their over obsession with sanskrit.. because, their belief that sanksrit was spoken on those days itself is false.. and that, it is prakrutham that is the people’s language, and sanskritam is a constructed language for the learned to communicate and document and NOT for the common people..
I do not find fault with them.. Their activities are reactionary to the christian superiority that was witnessed during british rule..
Sukumar,
We can get the full source of tolkappiam from below url.
http://www.tamil.net/projectmadurai/pub/pm0100/tolkap.pdf
I am reproducing the preface in the above book..
வட வேங்கடம் தென் குமரி
ஆயிடைத்
தமிழ் கூறும் நல் உலகத்து
வழக்கும் செய்யுளும் ஆயிரு முதலின்
எழுத்தும் சொல்லும் பொருளும் நாடிச்
செந்தமிழ் இயற்கை சிவணிய நிலத்தொடு
முந்து நூல் கண்டு முறைப்பட எண்ணிப்
புலம் தொகுத்தோனே போக்கு அறு பனுவல்
நிலம் தரு திருவின் பாண்டியன் அவையத்து
அறம் கரை நாவின் நான்மறை முற்றிய
அதங்கோட்டு ஆசாற்கு அரில் தபத் தெரிந்து
மயங்கா மரபின் எழுத்து முறை காட்டி
மல்கு நீர் வரைப்பின் ஐந்திரம் நிறைந்த
தொல்காப்பியன் எனத் தன் பெயர் தோற்றிப்
பல் புகழ் நிறுத்த படிமையோனே..
Some inferences from above..
முந்து நூல் கண்டு முறைப்பட எண்ணிப்
It indicates that tholkappiar is refining an earlier existing book..
அறம் கரை நாவின் நான்மறை முற்றிய — mention of four vedas..
ஐந்திரம் – mention about ainthiram school of sanskrit grammar..
In page# 63 of the tolkappian book referred in previous comment, the following lines appear under topic எச்சவியல்..
இயற்சொல் திரிசொல் திசைச்சொல் வடசொல் என்று
அனைத்தே செய்யுள் ஈட்டச் சொல்லே..
If my understanding is correct, tolkappiar says, words borrowed from sanskrit (வடசொல்), can also be used in composing the poems..
tolkappiar says about vatasol as below..
வடசொல் கிளவி வட எழுத்து ஒரீஇ
எழுத்தொடு புணர்ந்த சொல் ஆகும்மே
Clearly, even in tolkappiam, the influence of sanskrit is allowed, when necessary.. thus when tamil lacked any vocabularly, it freely borrowed words from sanskrit also..
Sukumar.. i would like to know your views regarding the quotes i have given here..
namaste,
I am a non tamizh student of tamizh – with less than elementary knowledge of the script – a nodding acquaintance with speaking and understanding. I have the tolkappiyam in latin diacritic script downloaded from gottingen Etext Preparation & PDF version: Dr.K. Kalyanasundaram, Lausanne, Switzerland Proof-reading & Web version: Mr. N.D. Logasundaram, Chennai, Tamilnadu. This is easily converted to the Baraha software notation for transliteration ointo other Indian languages.
My interest in tolkappiam is the concordance of tamizh with the mayan language of the south and meso americas. I find very high concordance of keiche maya and pANiNi’s dhAtu. In other words armed with the dhAtu, (dhAtupATha in Sanskrit and English Translations compiled by Dr.S.Kalyanraman and roots of verbs by Whitney) anybody can understand and reconstruct the meanings of Mayan words. For example,
mayan word :ach’i’y adj) elastic; tough – sanskrit word / telugu : cIr – to split – [acIrya] not tearable
mayan word :a’tam adj) early sanskrit word a (negative indicator) tam (slow – not fast – tamas – tAmasaM)
mayan word :abix n) corn plant; cornfield (x pronunced sh)
abixbal n) plow
abixik v) to plow
abixinik v) to cultivate a plot of land
sanskrit ( bisa :-n. (m. only Hariv. 15445 ; also written %{vIsa} ; ifc. f. %{A}) a shoot or sucker , the film or fibre of the water-lily or lotus , also the stalk itself or that part of it which is underground (eaten as a delicacy) RV. &c. &c. the whole lotus plant MBh. xii , 7974.) (or %{vis}) cl. 4. %{bisyati} , to go , move Naigh. ii , 14 to split or grow Nir. ii , 24 to urge on , incite Dha1tup. xxvi , 108 to cast , throw Vop.
On sri.senthil’s following comments and conclusions, I have great reservations
1. It indicates that tholkappiar is refining an earlier existing book.. The monier williams sanskrit dictionary gives the meaning and no specific mention of any grammar – aindra is more probably related to indra and ancient vedic hinduism.
45783 aindra * [aindra]1[aindr'a] mf ( [I] ) n. ( fr. [indra] ), belonging to or sacred to Indra, coming or proceeding from Indra, similar to Indra #AV. #TS. #VS. #ŚBr. #Mn. &c.
45784 aindra ~> m. ( scil. [bhAga] ) that part of a sacrifice which is offered to Indra #R.
45785 aindra ~> ( [I] ), f. ( scil. [Ruc] ) a verse addressed to Indra #ŚBr. iv #ĀśvŚr. vi #Nir. &c.
45786 aindra ~> ( scil. [dish] ) Indra’s quarter, the east #VarBṛS.
45787 aindra ~> ( scil. [tithi] ) the eighth day in the second half of the month Mārgaśīrsha
45788 aindra ~> ( scil. [shakti] ) Indra’s energy ( personified as his wife and sometimes identified with Durgā ) #MārkP. #DevībhP. &c.
45789 aindra ~> N. of the lunar mansion Jyeshṭhā #L.
45790 aindra ~> a species of cucumber #Bhpr. #Car.
45791 aindra ~> %Cardamom #L.
45792 aindra ~> misfortune #L.
45793 aindra ~> ( [am] ), n. the lunar mansion Jyeshṭhā #VarBṛS.
45794 aindra ~> N. of several Sāmans
45795 aindra ~> of a country in Bhāratavarsha #VP.
45796 aindra ~> wild ginger #L.
2. thus when tamil lacked any vocabularly, it freely borrowed words from sanskrit also..
It is very difficult to conceive a tamizh, great orators that they are to have having ever a lack of vocabulary! pANiNi, in fact appears to have compiled existing words in Bharathavarsha of his times and freely compiled from earlier grammarian. His use and classifiying dhAtu as vyaktha, avyaktha and mleccha prayoga shows language existing before his sanskritizing for sake of convenience of his times.
3. tamizh is one great language which defines live and dead consonants. The southern scripts are all roundish and the a careful look at devanagari script shows commonality of the I and u matra.
4. In the matter of evolution of conveying concepts – Mayan hieroglyphics are unsurpassable – A single carving conveys thousands of words. With tamizh there are fewer glyphs than any other script yet contextually and depending on their place they can be read aloud and pronounced properly.
ANI is a rik vedic word and a common word meaning nail in Tamizh.
In summary, I think comparison and contrast sudies are needed for Tamizh, Maya, and Sanskrit to be able to get to the truth in history and Hinduism. What is most needed is a word by word (no masala) translation of the Tolkappiyam in English -
Sukumar,
I am also sharing another reference from Silappathikaram below, where there is reference to brahmins are made in positive manner, and also the vedas they profess.. So, if we take any of the oldest available tamil literature, we are able to find the references to the vedas and brahmins, which the modern dravidian ideologists often mention as aryan..
முரசுஇயம்பின, முருகுஅதிர்ந்தன,
முறைஎழுந்தன பணிலம்,வெண்குடை
அரசுஎழுந்ததொர் படிஎழுந்தன,
அகலுள்மங்கல அணிஎழுந்தது.
மாலைதாழ் சென்னி வயிரமணித் துணகத்து
நீல விதானத்து நித்திலப்பூம் பந்தர்க்கீழ்
வான்ஊர் மதியம் சகடுஅணைய வானத்துச் 50
சாலி ஒருமீன் தகையாளைக் கோவலன்
மாமுது பார்ப்பான் மறைவழி காட்டிடத்
தீவலம் செய்வது காண்பார்க்கண் நோன்புஎன்னை.
விரையினர் மலரினர் விளங்கு மேனியர்
உரையினர் பாட்டினர் ஒசிந்த நோக்கினர் 55
சாந்தினர் புகையினர் தயங்கு கோதையர்
ஏந்துஇள முலையினர் இடித்த சுண்ணத்தர்
விளக்கினர் கலத்தினர் விரித்த பாலிகை
முளைக்குட நிரையினர் முகிழ்த்த மூரலர்
போதொடு விரிகூந்தல் பொலன்நறுங் கொடிஅன்னார் 60
காதலற் பிரியாமல் கவவுக்கை ஞெகிழாமல்
தீதுஅறுக எனஏத்திச் சின்மலர் கொடுதுவி
அங்கண் உலகின் அருந்ததி அன்னாளை
மங்கல நல்அமளி ஏற்றினார், தங்கிய
இப்பால் இமயத்து இருத்திய வாள்வேங்கை 65
Now, i contest the following lines of yours in this post..
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when we find that the vedas and brahmins are part of the tamil society, as per the oldest available tamil literature, how come we conclude that tamil is older than sanskrit? For that matter, i do NOT say sanskrit is Older than tamil..
Read Stephen Oppeinheimers Real Eve and see the Journey of Mankind here
http://www.bradshawfoundation.com/journey/
In his Real Eve op cit page 152 like this.
” For me and for Toomas Kivisild, South Asia is logically the ultimate orgin of M17 and his ancestors; and sure enough we find the highest rates and greatest diversity of the M17 line in Pakistan, India and eastern Iran, and low rates in the Caucasus. M17 is not only diverse in South Asia than in Central Asia , but diversity charactrises its presence in isolated tribal groups in the south, THUS UNDERMINING ANY THEORY OF M17 AS A MARKER OF A ” MALE ARYAN INVASION ” OF INDIA. One average estimate for the origin of this line in India is as much as 51,000 yrs. All this suggests that M17 could have found his way initially from India or Pakistan , through Kashmir then via Centarl Asia , before finally ciming into Europe”
The aboriginals of Australia worship fire and still wear stripes (white) all over their body. But they are three at time in a place in the body. This is very much like the stripes worn in South India by worshippers. I am a Maharashtrian . I lived in TN for some time and seen this stripes in people from many cross sections of society, esp in TN. We must rely on science more like the work of Stephen O rather than hand weaving of hot air linguists who can twist words to their convenience. I have attended some conference overseas and in India. Mention the work of Stephen O and other archeogeneticists , immediately there is silence as if they the linguists and other proponents are about to loose their jobs. Science and specialy the experiemental evidence is the way to go. Modern Biology is the right way to go.
namaste,
Stephen Oppeinheimers, Real Eves, and M17s are for consumption of audience that they think are blind, deaf and real dumb. The whole focus is on the hocus pocus of political and religion based and funded research hovering around the middle east and abraham centred. And this is a small portion of the globe – They have no mention at all about the Mayas, Incas and Natives of the huge American continents?
2. My primary interest is The Concordance of Maya Language of the Meso & South America to the Bharath India Languages
Any simple person looking into any Dictionary of the Mayan languages can see a very high concordance of that language with Bharath India Languages using the following
1 pANiNIya dhAtupATHa, compilation of its English transliteration and translations
and Whitneys Roots of verbs by Dr.S.Kalyanaraman
2 A Sanskrit English Dictionary by Sir Monier Williams
An additional help willl be the Lexicon Bharathi compiled by Dr.S.Kalyanaraman. This takes care of the concordance of the Maya language with the so called Aryan Sanskrit component of Bharath Languages.
What about the Dravidian Divide and Tamizh language of Bharath? Heated debates are rampant of Sanskrit Influence on Tamizh or Tamizh and Dravidian influence on Sanskrit and the veda too? Tolkappiyar’s Tolkappiyam appears to be a good source of obtaining the pure so called Dravidian dhAtu in Tamizh.
Unfortunatelly, such dhAtu are difficult to distinguish because of the integration of regions in Bharath over aeons. pANiNi’s dhatupaTha supposedly in Sanskrit includes dhAtu classified into vyakta, avyakta and mleccha prayoga. This further raises the ire of the Southern regions of India loosely classified as Dravidian.
The first part of TolkappIyam is ezhuttatikAram
adhikAr and adhikAram are words used colloquially today very extensively in all parts of India. And it is used extensively in Sanskrit literature from time immemorial. That it is used by Tolkappiar can and has been leading to all sorts of debates. Has the Dravidian Tamizh been influenced and imported the Aryan Sanskrit word? Or is it a hijack of a Dravidan word by Sanskrit?
The first part of the next word, [ciRa] of ciRappuppAyiram catches the author’s eye.
[cira] meaning eternal, long time etc. is used all over India. It is used in the blessing such as
[cirAnjIvi] and [cirakAla abhivRuddhi] -A slightly different sounding word is [cIra]. This is used
to mean as a noun the saree in Telugu. As verb it means to cut up or split.
Now comes the amazing Concordance of Maya language to the Bharath Indian languages. The Maya word ach’i’y (adj) means elastic; tough meat!
The Monier Williams Sanskrit English Dictionary 1899 gives the following meanings for [cIra]and its usage in different works including Taittiriya arnyaka, Ramayana, Mahabharath, the Puranas, Manu SmRuti and others.
cIra * [cIra]1[c'Ira] n. ( √ [ci] #Uṇ. ) a strip, long narrow piece of bark or of cloth, rag, tatter, clothes #TĀr. vii, 4, 12 #Gaut. #Mn. vi, 6 #MBh. &c. ( ifc. parox. #Pāṇ. 6-2, 127 & 135 )
[cIra] is used to mean saree in Telugu and also to split or tear. It is used to mean split and tear in Hindi and many so called Sanskrit derived languages of India. So we have here an example of so called Dravidian used Aryan dhAtu (word) also used by Mayans in South America! [a] is negative indicator in Mayan, the same as in Bharath languages.
What such a Concordance will do to the different theories and politics is the last of the concerns of the author. Collecting facts of sound amidst cacophony can be enjoyable.
This work includes
1 tolkappiyam of tolkappiyar part i- ezuttatikaram in Baraha © transliteration script
2 Word List and Frequency. This is generated by using Linguist Add On in OpenOffice.org
3 Baraha / Bharat language sort and English language sequence for above
4 A short note obtain Baraha / Bharath language sorts.
And is primarily to help me read Tamil in a Roman transliteration script. And this was done in a matter of about 2 days.
http://www.scribd.com/doc/34061284/01-TolkappIyam-Baraha-With-Word-List
I will be putting the other portions shortly.
regards
namaskaram shri rajagopal sukumar
What I really like about the world tamizh conference and patronage of the respected chief minister is a sanction (in a way) for the common man to know the scholars views of the truth and vice versa. this is consistent with the bhArath ethos of [satyaM eva jayate]
I request you to have a look at
http://psenthilraja.wordpress.com/2010/07/06/influence-of-sanskrit-over-tamil/#comments
where I have listed all the words in the tolkAppiam along with their frequencies. There are 5871 words and a total count of 18003 in the heritage document.
I wrote
========
I will, in a few days time put up a fully analyzable tolkappIyam in spreadsheets – this can be read in in multiple scripts Baraha software notation (from www,Baraha.com), tamizh, telugu,kannada and devanagari. Thanks for your mention of korea and your friends comments. In the spreadsheet prepared it is possible to sort and obtain a single column tolkappiyam with one word per cell. This is useful for comparing them with concept words in traditional chinese, japanese top to bottom scrolls and also the mayan hieroglyphs on stone ‘stele’
In the meantime senthil ji, I am taking up length in your ‘wow’ blog site and the great depth of course of sri tolkappiar. From a simple analysis the stats show that vocabulary of the seer in the tolkApiyam is just 5871 words and the total number of words used is again very small relatively 18003 words.
That the (almost) entire grammar of a language can be enunciated and explained thus is sheer inspiring genius.
==========
I also take this opportunity of reproducing my brief response to a venerable maharashtrian scholar, teacher and scientist that asked me to prepare a list of similar words for mother, father, and close relatives in different languages.
my response “thank you very much for your your message- I am in the middle of doing a number of things when your message came in. I started looking up the what you suggested – and I realize that looking for similarities in observably divergent populations is a trap.
Maharashtrians are different from Andhras are different from Kannadigas. And they all are different from the Latins or Britishers
We do observe in India – that mother is AI in common parlance Marathi and it is amma in Telugu. mA mAta are common – Why is it AI in marathi? I did a quick look up in the meanings of the akshara – components of AI and ammA.
Monier Williams Sanskrit English dictionary gives this following most appropriate for the context
24077 A * [A]1[A]2 ind. a particle of reminiscence #Pāṇ. 1-1, 14 #Pat.
24078 A ~> also of compassion or pain [more correctly written 1. [As], q.v.], and of assent #L. [This particle remains unaltered in orthography even before vowels ( which causes it to be sometimes confounded with 1. [As] ) #Pāṇ. 1-1, 14.]
33116 I * [I]1[I]2 [Is] m. N. of Kandarpa, the god of love #L.
33117 I ~> ( [I] or [Is] ), f. N. of Lakshmī #L. [also in #MBh. xiii, 1220 according to #Nīlak. ( who reads [puNyaca~jcur I] )]
33118 I * [I]1[I]3 ind. an interjection of pain or anger
33119 I ~> a particle implying consciousness or perception, consideration, compassion
That it is name for Lakshmi – the giver of everything now makes sense in the very
ancient primal sense of the shabda.
And what about amma a – is a particle and main component is ma in Telugu and so many different languages.
The dhAtpATha and whitneys roots of verbs have this
~> mAh{}ma_h{}to measure @ I. (group 1155 dhAtu)
~> mah{}mah{}to worship; to revere @ I. (group 1155 dhAtu)
Names and sounds are not without reason – In the foundations of human intellect it appears that words are coined for what a person or thing does – the mother is an adorable person that measures and gives used as amma or ma mAta (ta is same as da meaning giver)
The Mayan word for mother in many dialect samples are
chuu
chUUch
me
mI
and even na
and definitely there is no similarity but when we look at the sanskrit dhAtu there is revelation (and beauty)
83354 cuci * [cuci]1[cuci] m. the female breast #W.
83355 cucu * [cucu]1[cucu] for [cuccu], q.v. #L.
father in Mayan is tata
Monier Williams gives this
91399 tata * [tata]1[tat'a]2 m. ( #[tAta] ) chiefly Ved. a father ( familiar expression corresponding to [nan'A], mother ) #RV. viii, 91, 5 f. ; ix, 112, 3 #AV. #TS. iii #TBr. &c. ( voc. [like [tAta]] also term of affection addressed to a son #AitBr. v, 14, 3 ; vii, 14, 8 )
Sir, I think I qualify myself when I say looking for similarities in a world where all the components are different is a great trap. And many may consider it foolish to compare mangoes and llamas. At the gross level yes. they cannot be compared but when we get down to the elements of things they become comparable. The molecules of llamas can be compared to the molecules of mangoes with authority by biochemists.
regards
namaste,
I am pleased to upload a fully analyzable [tolkApiyam]
at
http://www.scribd.com/doc/34247967/Tolkappiyam-Multi-Script-Analyzable
the tinyurl
is
http://tinyurl.com/2evuptv
1 This PDF file is made from a spreadsheet. It is in the [tolkAppiyam] word list mode. In this mode a list of all the words in the document can be seen in the columns
18 word – Baraha©
19 word – tamizh script
20 word – telugu script
21 word- kannada script
22 word – devanagari
The column
3 Baraha sort
has numbers 1 to 18003
The contents of the PDF file should be copied into a spreadsheet carefully and certain steps detailed below taken for your own study and analysis..
After transferring to a spreadsheet you can read [tolkAppiyam] as you would a simple text document in multiple language scripts. And also study and analyze the document using the full power of spreadsheet software in a professional and scholarly manner.
http://www.scribd.com/doc/34247967/Tolkappiyam-Multi-Script-Analyzable
regards
Kedarnath , you must publish your work or edit it with other works as a book. There are many publishers now. This will reach a wider audience.
I found this interesting article by Dr. VS Ramachandran on his page – http://cbc.ucsd.edu/indus_vlley.jpg about indus valley script and its similarity to sumerian and the easter island script. Have you seen it before sukumar?
To add, Dr VS Ramachandran’s wiki page – http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vilayanur_S._Ramachandran
A Padma Bhushan awardee no less
namaskar gajanan ji,
thank you for your comment. [ga~jga govu pAlu ghantadaina cAlu - in telugu] a spoonful of the cow’s milk is more than enough. getting attention of the right readers is the greatest reward and for that I am thankful to the moderators of this blog.
This BR Ambedkars view on Aryan Invasion , a paper with the great BRA’s quotes. I do not know whether you can acess this, but BRA debunks this theory outright. BRA lived during the time EVR Naicker and Jinnah and they have supposed to have met several times. One feels that BRA showed more of an analytical ability than his counterparts. Even though he went to Germany and studied in Columbia Univ USA with Maharaja Sayaji Rao Gaikwad’s ( Baroda) help, he did not kowtow to the machinations of the colonialists like the uppercastes ( in those times) and the leaders in the South , particularly those who lapped up this divisive European mischief. He had his views on epics etc , but all were critiques and he did not indulge in buffonery. All of his works are masterpieces. More later when there is time.
http://jaar.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/reprint/73/3/843.pdf
On why I Feel Tamil Could Be A Primordial Language that led to evolution of other language structures including possibly Sanskrit and not the other way round:
Please Discuss this Topic without emotions and Spelling Venoms against a Language and a Language Group:
1.Tamil And Sanskrit:
The Common Source of these languages have remained to be explored due to sheer extraneous and other than linguistic considerations.
2.While it is very difficult to point out which language stands first in antiquity or whether humans started with a language structure or a language was a derivative of a group of spoken words in each community,it is definitely possible to pin-point the antiquity of a particular language structure from literary perspective.
3.To share with you my perception of why i feel that Tamil could have been the primordial language or the syllable structure of Tamil could have guided, future development of encryption in other languages including and probably Sanskrit.
4.1.Tamil structure of sound or syllable encryption recognises Vowel and consonent clustre in the first order.—If this was not a primary phase of development of language structure or if Sanskrit was Impacting Tolkaapiyan as is being put forth here then the structure developed would have been different…as is evident in all the apabrahmsa-pali-prakrit-and other dravidian languages.This single point is sufficient to prove the primitiveness of Tamil Over Sanskrit.
4.2.Tamil has Aytham which syllable has helped in development of encrypting consonental and Vowel orders probably in sanskrit and other Indic languages.
4.3.Tamil grammar as schematized in Tolakaapiyam do not restrain a length of a vowel or degree of a consonent and as has aptly been clarified by the Author that the restriction of Maththirai is to Iyar Tamizh and not to the Isai Tamizh which has unlimited exponentiation.
4.4.If Tamil syllable encryption structure was not primordial,then it would have followed the course of other languages(including other dravidian)in encrypting orders by inter-extrapolating probably the Aytham.
4.5.While restricting encryption to the first order- syllable for iyar tamizh, the phonetic values based on conventional positions have been adduced by language users.Thus while a word begins in the first order consonent,it goes to the second order anywhere else appearing in the word which can be reduced to first order by placing a preceding meyezhuttu.
4.6 Moreover the development of vowel-consonant(UyirMey)and categorisation of sounds as Vallinam -Mellinam and Idaiyinam is Unique to Tamil Sound System.
4.7.While Sanskrit is considered as perfect for developing consonental orders,it could still not encrypt all the permutation and combination of pronounciations and sound production which is infinite.Thus if one goes into the dynamics of sound production(Vocal Chord Differentiation) and encryption it will be difficult to contain those consonental sound delivery within the four orders without erring in the encryption of sound produced and simply this has been taken by the Tolkaapiyar as isai tamizh which need not be subject to encryption.Thus Tamil scheme of things did recognise that limitation of encryption of phonetics,which is not limited to writing but emanates from speeches varied through vocal chord dynamics.The neuter(Ha)Aytham took care of the softening and hardening but remained primordial discovery to be implemented through Sanskrit scheme of things for encryption.
4.8.Added to this confusion prevails in using particular order of vowel-consonant that remains in framing words with the right kind of syllables,and questioning why a particular order cannot be placed instead of chosen order of a consonant for the particular syllable in a word remains unanswered in the Sanskrit scheme of things.
namasthe,
On the discussion proposed by Sri Ram
1) what is the objective of the discussion
2) what are the expected results
3) how will the results help the growth of sanskrit and tamizh
4) how will it help preserve OUR heritage literature
5) how will it help the children of Bharath-India today and in the future
6) how ill it help the “aam admi”
regards
namaste,
I wanted this intentionally to be a separate set
What are the Tamizh components of Bharath India Heritage literature contributing to the arts and sciences
a) architecture
b) engineering
c) biology and botany
d) mathematics
e) astronomy
f) music
g) Knowledge and Information technology
These need to be in transliteration formats. TSCII standard is a phenomenal achievement for unified tamizh presentations – Baraha (c) software is phenomenal freeware for text override in different Indian language scripts that are (naturally phonetic) as opposed to alphabetic systems.
namsthe,
the greatest help I have had from the study of tamizh, sanskrit and other Bharath India languages is to study and understand the Maya Language of the South and Meso America and also the Cheorkee and other Native (Amerindian) languages.
The first thing to do in such studies is take a dictionary or a lexicon and rearrange the sequence as per the system popularly known as bARAkhadi – a A i I u U (special care needed for Ru RU Lu LU if they can be identified) – from suh studies it is noted that o O e E peculiarly absent in Sanskrit is present in Maya and all South Indian languages. On closer examination of the vaidik oral traditions and vaidik accents it is found that these can be approximately represented in transliteration scripts.
Original scripts of the Mayan language is are not found today and all of it has been replaced by roman letter transcriptions. But in spite of this it is found that the akshara [pronunciation unit] [ja] pronounced supposedly as [ha] as in Spanish. [ga] is reported to be missing and the unit. [tza] is present. For the Bharath Indian researching on this the entire subject is relative cake walk if he is acquainted with both sanskrit AND Tamizh and understanding the use of the Aytham in Tamizh for representing differentiable can be pronounced/ is pronounced consonants such as [ka kha ga gha] [ca cha ja jha] [T Tha Da Dha] [ta tha da dha] [pa pha ba bha]
the tza in maya is no big wonder for the Bharath Indian because it is a pronunciation variant in the ca varga – which is also present in our languages.
Aytham occurs in 30 [tolkAppiyam] sentences
This information has been extracted in a matter of less than 10 minutes from an ordinary spreadsheet built up from the great India Heritage Document put up by Project Madurai. TSCII standards developed by the Government is the foundation from which further developments such as transliteration scripts in other Bharath India languages is enabled.
Aytam aHkAk kAlaiyAna. 7
pukar aRak kiLa~nta aHRiNai mEna. 49
aHtu ivaN ~nuvalAtu ezhu~ntu puRattu icaikkum
uyartiNaip peyarE aHRiNaip peyar enRu
aHkAn ~niRRal Akiya paNpE. 20
aHRiNai viravuppeyar iyalpumAr uLavE. 13
aHRiNai viravuppeyarkku av iyal ~nilaiyalum
aHtu en kiLavi Avayin keTumE
ANum peNNum aHRiNai iyaRkai. 8
uyartiNai aHRiNai Ayiru maru~gkin
aHRiNai enmanAr avar ala piRavE
Ayiru pARcol aHRiNaiyavvE. 3
urupu ena mozhiyinum aHRiNaip pirippinum
tanmaic collE aHRiNaik kiLavi enRu
uyartiNai maru~gkinum aHRiNai maru~gkinum. 49
aHRiNai muTipina ceyyuLuLLE. 51
aHRiNai maru~gkin kiLa~ntA~gku iyalum. 57
kiLa~nta iRuti aHRiNai viravuppeyar
aHRiNai maru~gkin ellAp peyarum
uyartiNaikku urimaiyum aHRiNaikku urimaiyum
pAl aRi va~nta aHRiNaip peyarE. 13
anna piRavum aHRiNai maru~gkin
teri~nilai uTaiya aHRiNai iyaRpeyar
uyartiNaikku urimaiyum aHRiNaikku urimaiyum
am mU iraNTum aHRiNaiyavvE. 21
kAlak kiLavi aHRiNai maru~gkin
kuRittu etir mozhital aHkit tOnRum. 42
~nilat tiripu inRu aHtu enmanAr pulavar. 28
maruL aRu ciRappin aHtu uvamam Akum. 9
aHtu ozhittu onRin etukai Akum. 89
ஆய்தம் அஃகாக் காலையான. ௭
புகர் அறக் கிளந்த அஃறிணை மேன. ௪௯
அஃது இவண் நுவலாது எழுந்து புறத்து இசைக்கும்
உயர்திணைப் பெயரே அஃறிணைப் பெயர் என்று
அஃகான் நிற்றல் ஆகிய பண்பே. ௨0
அஃறிணை விரவுப்பெயர் இயல்புமார் உளவே. ௧௩
அஃறிணை விரவுப்பெயர்க்கு அவ் இயல் நிலையலும்
அஃது என் கிளவி ஆவயின் கெடுமே
ஆணும் பெண்ணும் அஃறிணை இயற்கை. ௮
உயர்திணை அஃறிணை ஆயிரு மருங்கின்
அஃறிணை என்மனார் அவர் அல பிறவே
ஆயிரு பாற்சொல் அஃறிணையவ்வே. ௩
உருபு என மொழியினும் அஃறிணைப் பிரிப்பினும்
தன்மைச் சொல்லே அஃறிணைக் கிளவி என்று
உயர்திணை மருங்கினும் அஃறிணை மருங்கினும். ௪௯
அஃறிணை முடிபின செய்யுளுள்ளே. ௫௧
அஃறிணை மருங்கின் கிளந்தாங்கு இயலும். ௫௭
கிளந்த இறுதி அஃறிணை விரவுப்பெயர்
அஃறிணை மருங்கின் எல்லாப் பெயரும்
உயர்திணைக்கு உரிமையும் அஃறிணைக்கு உரிமையும்
பால் அறி வந்த அஃறிணைப் பெயரே. ௧௩
அன்ன பிறவும் அஃறிணை மருங்கின்
தெரிநிலை உடைய அஃறிணை இயற்பெயர்
உயர்திணைக்கு உரிமையும் அஃறிணைக்கு உரிமையும்
அம் மூ இரண்டும் அஃறிணையவ்வே. ௨௧
காலக் கிளவி அஃறிணை மருங்கின்
குறித்து எதிர் மொழிதல் அஃகித் தோன்றும். ௪௨
நிலத் திரிபு இன்று அஃது என்மனார் புலவர். ௨௮
மருள் அறு சிறப்பின் அஃது உவமம் ஆகும். ௯
அஃது ஒழித்து ஒன்றின் எதுகை ஆகும். ௮௯
I have already given the web site where this can be downloaded.
regards
Namasthe,
Last, but not the least AND lest we lose – The logic of representations possible with the Tamizh script needs to be patented Government of India / Government of Tamilnadu It is our heritage – Otherwise we will find somebody calling it “Backus Naur whatever else”. The system is most useful for natural language representations in computer software. This has scope in artificial intelligence (AI). The study of languages is not a mere pastime Arts subject for the students that are very wealthy or could not get into engineering medicine and the sciences.
Language students taking up application pursuits in agriculture, medicine, child care, and robotics and rocketry have immense opportunities in India.
regards
@ Kedar
Please Visit this site:
http://xlweb.com/heritage/asian/palmleaf.htm
@ Kedar
Your Global Search on anyword such as Aytahm through Baraha throws many related words which may not be the point under discussion.
Baraha is a helpful tool only if we have command over the language otherwise not.
@ Kedar
I appreciate your interest in Tamil but my request dont come to any conclusions soon since i myself i am yet learning Tamil and Sanskrit and am not very firm on views expressed since these two languages are vast in their development cycle and have a distant path to probe.
I would advice to learn Tamil through Tamil if ofcourse you have sufficient Time else better be a Learner.
@ Kedar
1) what is the objective of the discussion?
To throw open a paradigm study of Tamil and its Grammar by Tamil Knowing Persons and Tamil Seekers.
2) what are the expected results
Expectations is that to understand and appreciate the Worth of Tamil WRT Global Languages.
3) how will the results help the growth of sanskrit and tamizh
It will establish probably the rightful place of Tamil before general public and give a proper understanding on the Sanskrit Development cycle-Probably a Tantric and Mantra Literature(and not the Language of Mass communication).
4) how will it help preserve OUR heritage literature
By Establishing the rightful place of these languages it will give a new approach to understanding the Language development cycle of India and the world which lies in the 1000 nds of Oral-dialects and the scientifically developed languages from these dialects and offshoots in the language structure design.
5) how will it help the children of Bharath-India today and in the future
Better unbiased understanding of the Languages their forefather evolved through ages.
6) how ill it help the “aam admi”
The study will benefit aam aadmi in a better way than the current rising prices of commodities and the assurances of the Politician and their backup resources about stopping the inflation.
namasthe,
I think The Central Institute of Classical Tamil has been and is doing a wonderful job. They have a wonderful downloadable superb audio rendition of the tolkAppiyam
http://www.cict.in/
regards
Thirukkural is one of the most popular tamil texts, that is supposed to belong to sanga age.. and in the following kural, thiuvalluvar describes what is acceptable and not-acceptable w.r.t brahmins
மறப்பினும் ஓத்துக் கொளலாகும் பார் ப்பான்
பிறப்பொழுக்கங் குன்றக் கெடும். 134
Meaning: Even if a brahmin forgets (the Vedas), it is accepted , but not his falling down in his disciplines of his birth.
And what has this related to WCTC? This proves voidness of the dravidian racism exhbited in the conference, where tamil is pitted against sanskrit.. The tamil society of tiruvalluvar age has accepted brahmins as part of the society, and infact, they have accepted Vedas as a dharma for the brahmins..
With all humbleness, i reiterate my point that, there should be a complete revisit of the linguistic propogated by the white colonisers on a racial line, and we need to have an indigenous research on our language..
The extensive relation b/w tamil people and vedic people is to be researched, and the relation b/w tamil and sanskrit..
@ram
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4.2.Tamil has Aytham which syllable has helped in development of encrypting consonental and Vowel orders probably in sanskrit and other Indic languages.
**/
But aytham letter was NOT used widely in the tamil literature.. btw, is there any similarity b/w “ha” in sanskrit (as used in namaha) and the aytham letter of tamil?
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4.3.Tamil grammar as schematized in Tolakaapiyam do not restrain a length of a vowel or degree of a consonent and as has aptly been clarified by the Author that the restriction of Maththirai is to Iyar Tamizh and not to the Isai Tamizh which has unlimited exponentiation.
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The equivalent of iyaR tamil is the prakrutham, which is free flowing.. sanskrit is the artificial structured language for the learned.. so as the tamil grammar for the learned..
Grammar is developed from the base of spoken language.. sanskrit grammar from prakrutham and tamil grammar from IyaR tamil.. but the concept of language grammar seems to be independant of grammar.. ie, various languages would have used this concept to develop their grammar.. (just like OOPS concept is applied in various computer languages)..
in my limited knowledge, o observe that the translation from sanskrit to tamil is straight forword grammatically, with nouns and verbs directly translated.. whereas a translation from english to tamil needs re-orderinig of verbs and nouns in the sentence.. Can we interpret anything from this? (i dont know about other european languages and hence limited my scope of interpretation)