The Real History of India – Part 5: IVC Religion & the Proto-Trinity
The Real History of India – Part 5: IVC Religion & the Proto-TrinityProlog:
When I started on this journey, i first looked at the Aryan Invasion Theory debates and had come across the Kurgan Hypothesis from Marija Gimbutas, a brilliant Anthropologist from Lithuania. As you know, i later switched strategies to look at the entire Neolithic plate and its mother goddess religion. Over the past few weeks, i have formed a hypothesis. When I was testing it, i again came across Gimbutas – and found that she had forecasted that the entire world was following the mother goddess culture. She added that the world was matristic initially and later changed to a patriarchal setup via the Kurgan Expansion. You can read her interview that throws some light on this.
This matristic-patriarchal aspect of Gimbutas’s theory was pilloried by critics and i think it also indirectly reduced the credibility of her Kurgan Hypothesis. I think that Gimbutas was right in guessing that the whole world was following the same religion in the Bronze Age. I agree with her on the broader principles, but i think she made some critical errors in assuming it was matristic.
At Priya Raju’s constant goading, i started reading Dan Brown’s Da Vinci Code. My hypothesis about the religion was formulated before i started reading this book. So any similarities you see are accidental and may serve to corroborate my hypothesis.
Astronomical Foundation – Solar with a Lunar Twist
Symbologically speaking, IVC denizens believed that the Sun, Earth and Moon were 3 equal parties in the functioning of the world as they knew it – the proto-trinity. Additionally, they also believed that the Earth was the one that was providing the energy to both the Sun and the Moon.
As i have mentioned before, these people had phenomenal powers of observation. They must have observed and calculated the day lengths and figured out that there are 4 equinoctial points – vernal and autumnal equinoxes, summer and winter solstices.
Next they partitioned the 360 degree sky into twelve 30 degree parts to arrive at the 12 zodiacs. Based on where the sun rises in the horizon, they assigned the sun rise to the various zodiacs throughout the year.
Next they looked at the moon and figured out that it revolves around the earth in a 27 day cycle (modern calculations put it at 27.3 days!). They assigned a star to each of the days of the moon there by giving rise to the 27 star system. From a symbology perspective, they thought that the Sun and the Moon were competing for their energy from the earth. When the winter solstice occurs (Uttarayana Punyakalam starts), they deemed it as victory for the Sun and this cycle lasts for 6 months till the summer solstice. At the summer solstice (Dakshninayana Punyakalam), the Moon is said to have won the contest and the Moon’s 6 month cycle continues till the next winter solstice.
The next piece of symbology is in the regular monthly cycle, the moon wins during the waxing phase and loses during the waning phase.
Therefore each day in the calendar was marked with the cycle (sun or moon), the zodiac, the month and the day marked by the phase of the moon and the star associated with it.
Tamils follow to this day the same calendar as outlined in their Panchank (Almanac). My research shows that Keralites, Bengalis, Punjabis also follow a similar calendar framework. [Citation Needed]
Flora & Fauna’s Impact
As we all know by now, Cows and Bulls were extremely important for the IVC people. The Bull symbol was assigned to the Sun – the Uber-Father God. The Cow symbol was assigned to the Earth – Uber Mother Goddess. It is not clear to me what symbol was assigned to the moon, but my guess is that they assigned a Goat (Ram). BTW, the Egyptians also equated cows with their mother goddess (Goddess Hathor).
Trees were very holy for them symbologically because, its roots connect it to the earth (mother goddess) and the top foliage connects it to the sky – and by extension, to the sun during the day & the moon during the night. Trees also bear fruits and seeds which indicate growth and fertility.
At this point, i recalled the Egyptian “Crown” Symbology – the type of crown the gods wear shows if they are from lower or upper Egypt. They controlled both parts if they wore both types of crowns.
Now when i looked at the 3-horned mother goddess, things fell into place. The 3rd horn in the middle is usually a branch of a tree & it signifies the Mother Goddess – Earth – Parvati. She was also known as Durga in Bengal. For some reason they also thought that the mother goddess was from a mountain. Ninhursag, the Sumerian Mother Goddess is supposed to be from a mountian as well.
Now when you go back and look at the peepul tree worship seal, you will see the 3-horned symbology with the middle horn shown as a branch of a tree.
Let us consider the Bull. It also has 2 horns, and we already know that the Lingam is a phallic symbol. If you now look at the 3-horned male god’s crown, you will notice that the middle horn is a phallic symbol and that represents the Father God – Sun – Shiva. In a later post, I’ll explain why I think this is a phallic symbol and why we worship it.
Now that we have established the premises for Mother, Father & the IVC Almanac, it must be now clear to you that the Uber Son is – the Moon. Also known as Murugan (Karthik in Bengal).
This Sun, Earth, Moon is the Proto-Trinity which is a concept that was later incorporated into Vedic Hinduism and Christianity as well [Father, Son and the Holy Spirit]. I’m not saying that IVC loaned the concept to Christianity. What I mean is, Christianity adopted a concept that was prevalent in Neolithic societies.
Let us review parallels from the reference cultures – Sumer started with a pantheistic religion and later moved to the Trinity – Utu (Sun), Ninhursag (Earth) and Sin (Moon). Egypt moved to the Theban Triad during later Middle Kingdom and the start of New Kingdom – Amun (Sun), Maat (Earth) & Khunsu (Moon).
I believe the Minoans had the same triad, but I couldn’t get the name of the Moon god – the male god was called Cernunnos and the female god was Potnia Theron (both are greekified names of Celtic and Minoan gods). Notice that Potnia is known as the Mistress of Animals. Please note that this concept is present in IVC also. In order to understand that symbology, i had to consult Desmond Morris’s brilliant work – “Animal Watching”. I will explain this in later posts.
Now going back to astronomy, they assigned the Bull Zodiac (“Taurus”) to the point at which the Sun rises during the Vernal Equinox. It also marked the New Year – the agricultural season. Pleaides are a part of Taurus. Due to precession, the vernal equinox now falls in March. But since the Tamils place a premium on “Taurus”, their new year still occurs on April 14.
Festival Framework
There are 4 major festivals coinciding with the 4 equinoctial points (new year coincided with the Vernal Equinox as explained above).
1. New Year – At Vernal Equinox, the agricultural season starts, the fields are ploughed and the seeds are sowed. Here is where their symbology of the Sacred Marriage enters. They analogized the start of a New Yearly cycle with the sexual union of the Sun and Earth.
So the festival celebrated sexual unions. Celts called it the “Beltane Festival” – sometimes also called Corn Prince/Princess Festival. There is evidence to show that real sexual unions took place to symbolize the holy union of the Gods. The Uruk Vase found in Sumer shows the “Akitu” festival; Egyptians celebrated the “Opet” Festival which i wrote about during my visit to Karnak. Minoans must have done it as well, as indicated in the Fresco of the Prince. This is celebrated as “Chithirai Thiruvizha” in South India – Where a sacred marriage takes place in madurai between Meenakshi (Parvathi) and Sundareswarar (Shiva). I guess over time the sexual union was converted to a wedding, which is more palatable to our prudery!
The festival of colors must have also happened duing this time with the associated drinking of the Bhang. I believe the IVC people had the Bhang as well. This will be covered later. Holi is today celebrated during the Vernal Equinox – which as we saw occurs in March due to precession. During the IVC days, it would have fallen in April alongside the new year. Even today, the sexual undertones of Holi can’t be missed.
2. Winter Solstice – this is the festival of Suriya Pongal, which marks the Victory of the Sun over the Moon. Bull leaping was done during this festival. As we saw previously, Minoans did the Bull Leaping too.
The above 2 are the only Tamil festivals i knew before i did this research.
3. Summer Solstice – this marks the start of the victory cycle of the moon, and there are festivals that celebrate this. Please delve into your backgrounds and see what your families celebrate during this time. I was able to predict the existence of this festival and I managed to find the Tamil festival celebrated around the Summer Solstice 
4. Autumnal Equinox – this marks the culmination of the victory of the moon, over the evil forces. Again, dig deep into your backgrounds to figure out which Indian festival would be an ideal candidate for this equinoctical celebration.
Let me give you another insight into the minds of these people. Right after the Winter Solstice (Pongal in the month of “Thai”) – “Thai Poosam” which marks the birth of Muruga under the “Poosam” star is celebrated. Star Poosam is the 6th star from Karthikai (the Krithika goddess) – this is to accommodate the 6 pleaides stars [Citation needed]. Interestingly, “Thai” is the 10th month from “Chithirai” when the Holy Sexual Union takes place – They even made sure the gestation period was taken into account!
The celts had smaller festivals during what are known as cross-quarter days or mid-equinoctial points. I have not come across any festivals in India that coincide with this. If you think otherwise, please let me know. Do remember that the equinoctial points mark the quarters of the year.
Epilog:
Gimbutas had correctly predicted that the mother goddess woship was common. As you can see, the Neolithic people actually went a few steps ahead of that to create a religion that was egalitarian – with male, female and child having equal dominance to create the world’s First Trinity. Since the Sumerians and even the later Babylonians followed a Lunar Calendar, i think the IVC people are the first to originate a complex solar calendar system with a lunar twist. Egyptians did use a Solar Calendar, but i don’t think they superimposed the star system on it.
Some more puzzles for you to crack:
1. Who is the snake goddess in Tamilnadu (may have local variants in each region, i think) and why do we worship the snake goddess?
2. What was the real original name of Siva? [Shiva is the Aryanized name of Siva]
3. How did the Vedic Trinity – Shiva, Brahma, Vishnu replace the IVC Trinity?
4. How was the Muruga Symbology constructed? I believe it indicates a balance of both feminine and masculine symbols.
5. What was the Indus script element that signifies the Sun and Moon halves of the year?
Sukumar,
A Lunar calendar will be much simpler to follow, for pastoral people that didn’t till the land. Even now, in the Vedic culture, every day is counted with respect to Shukla Paksham (ascent of the moon) or Krishna Paksham (descent of the moon).
Its interesting how even Christianity, a monotheistic religion, had to adopt the holy trinity – perhaps to ensure its survival & aceptance among the pagans.
Priya, you seem to be influenced by Da Vinci Code
Sukumar, I am still digesting your post. It is very powerful analysis.
Vamsi – Not really
Christianity is an Abrahamic religion. So, where did the concept of trinity come from?
And if you look at the other pagan symbols that it has adopted – Easter & eggs, Christmas tree etc, its clear that they had to imbibe several pagan customs/beliefs to survive.
Sukumar,
Great post. Let me guess about the festival in summer solstice. Is it Aadi Pooram? Since I was born in July that’s the only festival I remember as being celebrated in July which marks the beginning of summer solstice. Also Adi Pooram would signify “Parvathi”(goddess). My birth star is Aadi Pooram and my mother always used to tell me that it’s very auspicious for a girl to be born in this nakshatram.
Thanks to your post, past 2 hours am just hooked onto reading about winter and summer solstice and connecting them to the father-mother-child trinity.
As Vamsi pointed out, am still digesting the post.
I had a doubt, is Dakshinayana considered to be inauspicious in any sense?(since the sun is moving south).
And let me guess the festival for autumnal equinox. Is it Vijaya Dasami?
Sukumar for your questions 4 and 5 I was going through this site and found some clues:
http://murugan.org/research/valluvan2.htm
This feels like some treasure hunt. Am already waiting for your next post to know more details about IVC.
Sukumar…
And then..the hunt for solving puzzles starts.You gave me a whole 2 days of work with this interesting follow up post.As vamsi said, still need some time to digest this.Great work again.
Sukumar
. I can take to puzzle number one since I’m from Nagercoil.
Very detailed and well written post. It will take 2 or 3 reading to understand and I hope then I might be able to solve the puzzles
1. We worship snake god “Nagaraja”, not goddess in Nagercoil. One of the reason for worship is to protect all farmers from the snakes in the fields. One beauti of this temple is, Nagaraja is installed in ground where it was originally found and the sanctum is a simple thatched shed, with mud walls on top it Travancore kings build temple with kerala touch, and Jain style.
Thanks
Subba
This is something sukumar.Really detailed analysis..woof its is going to take a lot of time to answer these questions….
I can try answereing the Snake Question…
I guess the Snake Goddes worshiped in Mancamma..I have heard it Andhra…
The reason for worshiping snakes is that During the monsoons snakes came out of the holes and bit both cattle and humans like…so snakes were worshiped to minimise this….
Now Nagapanchami coincides with this …
Sukumar – Let me take a shot at the Snake God myth. Taking a leaf out of ancient Egyptians, “Resurrection” was important to the Neolithic people. Snakes shed their skin & re-grow it – this may have been seen as a symbol of rebirth.
Snakes are cold-blooded. In the land of the Celts, they would have hibernated in the winter months – and emerged again in Spring – along with the greenery. In the arid deserts in the Near East, they would have aestivated in the Summer months to emerge in cooler times – but the legend from the Celts took root to equate snakes with rebirth & fertility? Sorry, my imagination is running amok.
My dirty mind also tells me that a snake was perhaps worshipped as a phallic symbol.
LOL Priya ….
But you are right, Snake worpship has some phallic orgins …for one atleast in Tamil Nadu and the South Snakes Goddess is worshiped for fertilty …
Second over the period of time Snake as been associated with the ultimate Phalic representation (Shiva and his ornamenst and aslo the Lingams)
Informative post Sukumar.The solar and Lunar twists was brilliant. However I just could not follow the Flora & Fauna’s Impact section.
/*The 3rd horn in the middle is usually a branch of a tree & it signifies the Mother Goddess – Earth – Parvati. */ what are the other two horns for?
/* middle horn is a phallic symbol and that represents the Father God – Sun – Shiva.*/ How do you make this distiction between the middle horn of the male and female. Could you point to the seal.
/*must be now clear to you that the Uber Son is – the Moon */ I am being very dumb. This was not at all clear to me.
Would it be possible for you to elaborate on these
Another aspect which I don’t understand. Shiva is associated with Bull, but parvathi is never associated with the cow. You are right in that earth is associated with Cow, but none of our stories ever point to Shiva being married to the earth.
Priya – You are right about snakes being the symbols of ressuruction and fertility, even in Hindu mythology. They represent the potent and renewing quality of nature because they shed their old skins and grow new ones.
I dont know much about snake worship.. But, my grandma used to offer a hen to karuppusamy temple nearby whenever she confronted with a snake in her house or cowshed and the snake went away without harming anyone ..
As with every other rituals, anything that’s powerful than human, are used to be worshipped.. same for snakes.. its really terrifying situation when confronted with snakes.. because, since it moves zigzag & lengthy, we cannot trace its movement that much easy.. I faced big such snakes for around 3 times.. (as length as my height).. No wonder, snakes are worshipped ..
My present house owner described how she faced a cobra.. a cobra raising as high as her head (straight to straight facing with cobra’s eye
) .. This incident happened around 10 years before, but she still goes to nearest snake temple regularly, (as she somehow killed that snake, she might have feared revenge from the snake’s lover 
)
Regarding snakes as phallic symbol, i think, its not.. the symbol of snakes is used to represent chakras in kundalini yoga. Found the following blog with excellent details of 7 chakras , as represented in Ganesha temple.. here, the 7 chakras are represented by coiling of two snakes with each other.. i remember seeing such image as a additional statue in ganesha temple..
http://bharataagamas.blogspot.com/2008/01/symbolism-behind-worship-of-lord.html
Thanks Karthik. See, I knew it – the dirtier our mind, the closer we are to the truth
The lingam is already a phallic symbol. They added snakes also, in case we didn’t get the message
This is why I wonder – why pile 1 symbol after another?
And what about the Caduceus – the symbol of the medical world, of 2 entwined snakes on a rod? Originally, the symbol of healing was the Rod of Ascelpius – a single snake on a rod. Of course, the Greek pantheon was not neolithic. But, perhaps it took over some of the existing neolithic symbols from Greece?
I’m reminded of the “Snake Goddess” figurine in Crete, dating back to 1700 BC.
Senthil – Perhaps the snake is not a phallic symbol. But you can’t disprove my claim by looking at Vedic (Iron Age) symbology.
You need to quote relevant Bronze Age (Neolithic) examples to say why snakes can’t be phallic symbols.
@ Archana ..U have raised a valid point on Earth not being married to the Shiva…but i do remember one story of Mahabharta ..where Earth takes thr form of Cow and Dharma takes a bull form and Kali ( as in yuga) will flogginh the bull till he breaks its 3 legs.Now he will be about break 4th leg and cow will be crying when Parakshit arrives and is about kill the brahmin( Kali) when Kali reveals himself and asks for boon from Parashit on his places to stay…
Now the relevance here is Bhoodevi is generally married to Vishnu but in this case its a different version where she is seen in the company of Dharma…
So may be in some older versions she could have been associated to shiva (again this is my speculation)
Priya/Vamsi,
Thanks.
Priya,
you are right. Aryans being a pastoral people used a lunar calendar. It is the lunar calendar we actually follow today except for a few pockets where the IVC’s solar calendar with a lunar twist is being used.
You are right again with the christmas tree and other pagan concepts that were incorporated into Christianity. I had heard the christmas tree incorporation to christmas bit from you first a few years ago. But at that time, i had no idea that the IVC people followed the same Pagan religion.
One of the main reasons why Christianity was forced to incorporate pagan practices/ideas/symbols was due to the Celts who were fiercely protective of their culture. They were christianized only in the 5th cent A.D.
Saraswathi,
Thanks.
1. Adi Pooram is a good guess.
2. At first i didn’t want to use the dakshniayana, uttarayana lingo because that is a Aryan concept. I did that only so that people could understand the solstice concept better. Dakshinayana being inauspicious is a Aryan concept. In the Mahabharat, Bheeshma waits for the Uttarayana to start before he puts his life down so that he can die during an auspicious time.
3. Thanks for the link. I had not come across that one in my research. i will follow through when i find the time.
Subba,
Thanks. That is interesting about the Nagaraja, i had not heard of that. But remember here we are talking about a Snake Goddess and not Snake God. You need to dig up some more.
Karthik,
Thanks. I had not heard of the Andhra Snake Goddess. It will be great if you can produce some links/citations for that. It could be connected to the Snake Goddess.
Your observation on snakes is probably accurate. Just think some more about why they come out during monsoons? That will give you some interesting clues to chase down.
Priya/karthik,
you are right. Snake is a phallic symbol. As the series advances you will see why that is the case.
Archana,
Thanks. the 2 horns represent the 2 real horns that the cow has. the third one is the symbolic one. in the mother goddess’s case it is a branch of a tree – specifically peepul tree. Please go back and look at the women standing inside the tree, you can see the middle horn that she has, right?
The same concept holds good for the male as well. Just that in the male god’s case, the middle one is a phallic symbol (lingam) You can do the digging up on the seals yourself. Or you can wait for the series to unfold.
Remember at the start of the post i said – the trinity is sun, earth and moon – if the sun is the father and the earth is the mother, the moon is the child, right? Also see the symbology of muruga’s birth happening exactly 10 months after the sacred marriage of sun and the earth in chithirai maasam.
I will respond to the other ones after my conf calls in the next few hours.
Thanks Maheswari. I am glad you are enjoying it.
Archana/Senthil/Karthik,
This comment applies to all the other readers as well.
All of you need to cast away your Vedic glasses if you want to truly understand the IVC. As a one-time practicing Brahmin (i am now an Agnostic), i found it extremely hard to do as well. But unless you stop viewing everything through the lens of Vedic customs/rituals, you will not be able to piece this together.
I was able to do that only by taking myself out of the context of India and looking at the entire world. It is that perspective that allowed me to tie the Neolithic Plate together.
If you are not able to do that right away, that is okay. As the series advances, may be you will be able to do it.
If i can be of any additional help in this journey, i will be happy to provide that.
To give an example, Archana is talking about how the cow was never connected to parvathi – which may be the case in the Vedic documents. But IVC was not Vedic. Karthik is talking about Mahabharat, which is again a document from the Vedic age.
Please let me know if there are other questions?
Sukumar …
I did some research on the Snake Goddess..I thk Mancama has its orgin from Manasa….Vedic literature calls her sister of Vasuki and niece of Sesha..
But she predates that and i seen as the mother of snake ..She is also a draividian goddess …who go incorprated with Vedic Culture …
She is seen as ferltity goddess as well as protector against venom and poisons..I will try to provide some links soon,,,we can stilll see her being worshiped among some tribes like bhils as well bengalis and Assamese
Sukumar,
Brilliant! F…ing brilliant! I am traveling and missed your post this morning. I see that you have made several leaps and this time, it has provided the key to open several puzzles in my head.
I need some confirmation / criticism of my thoughts.
1. I think IVC considered Sun and Earth as equals (I’ll cover this more in the following steps). They must have wanted to compare the family (mother, father, child) to everything around them – sun+earth+moon, trunk+root+fruit, animals around them etc. The sun is the father, the earth the mother and the moon the child. Remember, moon is smaller in size. They must have thought that moon is created (I’ll come to why earth created moon theory in a minute)
2. I read parpola and wondered why he thought inverted ‘V’ was for goddess. He says that it’s inverse of a horn. I couldn’t buy that theory. On reading your post, it dawned on me. Taking the tree, root and fruit similarity, tree is always represented as a ‘V’ or a ‘U’ in IVC. If you look at the root system, it looks like an inverted “V” or “U”. That’s why earth goddess was represented with an inverted ‘V’. That’s why the 3rd of the 7th palisades is represented with an inverted V on top of her head.
3. This is a side note – In Tamil the other son of Siva and Parvathi is called Pillaiyar. Look at the name! I wonder if people where asking “Yaar Pillai”, as in who’s son or why this son as it doesn’t fit with sun, earth and god trinity, and that’s how he came to be known as Pillaiyar?
4. The 6 month sun and moon cycle is interesting. I am sure you’ve heard the tamil phrase “kaadu 6 maasam, naadu 6 maasam”. My family used it all the time to denote a male member not being there available for a while. I wonder if it comes from signifying sun-cycle (sun being compared to father). Sun movement (from earth) looks like it moves between the two solstices (6 months). I also wonder if that started matching with people going out of their villages to towns to work for 6 months and returning back or vice-versa.
5. I am sure you are making a leap in establishing the context for the symbols and indus script through the 12 zodiacs, 27 moon days etc trying to depict the day of the year in the symbol and script. It’s absolutely brilliant! I agree with you.
6. Here’s my leap of imagination. You might already be here. Moon’s waxing and waning cycle matches with a woman’s menstrual cycle. Mother goddess gives birth to muruga, earth gives birth to moon (in their mind). Moon cycle is 27 days. Menstrual cycle is similar. You’ll also see why Palisades next.
7. I was wondering why palisades was important. There were so many stars visible. Why those 7 stars? I couldn’t buy just the vernal equinox theory. Then your post today made me think. A woman’s menstrual cycle is similar to that of a moon’s cycle. 28 days. If earth is mother goddess, a woman ovulates around the 13-14 day, which is 7 days after the menstrual cycle is over (6 or 7 days of cycle – http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Menstruation). That’s why I think the 7th star is Muruga to denote that if you conceive on the 13th/14th day, you’ll have a baby. That is also probably why Poosam is the star for Muruga, the first day of conception (and the 8th star in the lunar month). Also, in Tamil, a woman has 7 phases of growth (Pedai, pedumbai, mangai, madanthai, arivai, therivai, perilampen). This could be to signify different phases in her life as well as different days before ovulation. Imagine this – Rama’s birthday is on Punar Poosam (translation – prior to poosam). I wonder if it was done on purpose to put Rama ahead of Muruga.
8. I haven’t figured out why the 3rd lady from the left is the goddess earth (mirugaseesham). My theory is that she could be animal goddess as represented by the name “miruga sesham”.
9. Then I wondered, why associate bull, cow and goat to siva, parvathi and Muruga. Then I started digging deeper. Cows are the only animals that have a similar gestational period to that of humans. They are in gestation for 283 days (similar to humans) and that’s why bulls and cows are used to depict man and woman and no other animal. Check out http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gestation. I buy your Ram for Moon / Muruga theory also. As earth gave birth to moon, which looks smaller compared to sun and earth and looks different from them both.
10. I also have another theory on why Murugan is always on top of a Kundru. Kundru resembles a mother’s bosom and it could be to signify that a baby is always near mother’s bosom.
A few extraneous information –
a. There’s a phrase in tamil “murrikindu poran” meaning someone is angry/fighting and leaving. I wonder if Muruga has come to be associated with “kovam” in a similar way.
b. Equinox – Sun is right over earth. I was able to imagine the missionary position and hence the sun being the man and earth the woman.
Coming to your questions
1. Why do we worship snake goddess – Snake eats eggs (http://www.centralpets.com/animals/reptiles/snakes/snk2887.html). They live under the ground and eats mother goddess eggs. Using the menstruation reasoning above, this could be similar to women having mis-carriage and losing their eggs. Remember, we call lunar eclipse as a huge snake eating the moon (egg). So, to be fertile and to have a baby, you pray to snake goddess to help protect the eggs. I am sure that women losing uterine lining being similar to snake shedding it’s skin didn’t help either (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Menstruation)
2. Siva’s original name – You already told me this, so I won’t spoil the surprise for everyone. I was thinking further on this and thought siva is god of love like you said and he uses a flower arrow to woo the woman. Using the tree euphemism, you need the flower to bear the fruit. That’s why he carries a flower garland and that’s why he uses a flower arrow.
3. Vedic trinity – huge plagiarism – God of love(pro-creator), Mother goddess (protector – one with womb) and Muruga (son) translates to Vishnu (protector), Brahma being the creator and Siva portrayed as a destroyer. In one fell swoop, you can destroy the image of an entire civilization by making him the destroyer.
4. Muruga symbol – it is earth and sun copulating – the 2 circles in union to form muruga.
5. You got me on this one. Now, I’ve got to do more research.
Now, I see the symbols in a new light. Amazing! Thank you!
2. I was wondering for a while as to why earth is mother. When I read your post, my head was about to explode as it unlocked several pieces for me. Women have a 27/28 day menstrual cycle, which matches with the moon cycle. Hence, also, Muruga is moon.
Sukumar,
Another thought – You know the fruit of knowledge story between Muruga and Ganesha. I wonder if it is because, muruga is associated with Fruit (tree, earth, fruit) in IVC and to dis-credit that story and being prudish about Muruga being closer to bosom and this being a fertility civilization, the vedic people created the ganesha story and gave the fruit to Ganesha to signify he is the favored son and that’s why Muruga went to a kundru being angry.
Thanks Sukumar. Yes it is going to be hard.
Another fact that I find hard to digest is sun and the moon deriving their energy for the earth. From whatever little I know, it has always been the other way round. Earth deriving its energy from the sun. That is why he is considered a prathyaksha devata, god who is visible to us. Dakshinayanam is considered inauspicious because, sun, the giver of life and energy is moving away from us.
It would be interesting to know how people of southern hemisphere perceived Dakshinayanam.
Sukumar,
Interestingly, I went back to your post #4 and referred back to the stars and what they mean – http://www.findyourfate.com/indianastro/nakshatra-table.htm. Uthiradam which is the 21st star is knows as the “latter red one”, which seem to match with my theory.
NK – Brimming with ideas & enthusiasm as always, I see
Regarding the “Fruit of Knowledge” myth, I’ll do a separate post, tracing its origins.
@Sukumar –
Athi I guess ‘Siva’/'shivan’ is itself a dravidian name and this link is descriptive about that! Aryan name for Siva is RUDRA!!!
http://saxakali.com/southasia/dravidian_india.htm
Karthik,
Very interesting. It will be great if you can dig up some authoritative sources for that Snake Goddess in Andhra.
Rupika,
Good work. Yes, Rudra is the Vedic God that subsumed Siva of the IVC. Next thing to dig up is, how did they connect this to that?
Archana,
Thanks for agreeing with me. I will offer one small thumb rule for all of you. If you are thinking about this and a Sanskrit word or phrase comes to your mind, that is likely to be incorrect because Sanskrit was the Vedic Language. Another thumb rule to adopt is to check if the concept is present in the Rig Veda Samhita (not the brahmanas, aranyakas) . It is the most authentic document from the Vedic period. so if something is present in the RV samhita, you can be reasonably sure that it belongs to the 1500BC-1000 BC timeframe. All else cannot be dated accurately. For example, this pratyaksha devata thing you quote is likely to be a Vedic concept.
Here is why the IVC people thought that the Earth was the energy giver. Remember that the heliocentric model came in to the picture much much later. To assume that Sun and the Moon and the stars revolved around the earth is the most obvious inference to draw. This is why in Science observation alone is not enough. But observation definitely is a good starting point and the IVC people were masters at the art of observation.
Let us first look at the moon, scientifically speaking, it is the earth coming between the sun and the moon that causes the waxing and the waning. So from the IVC point of view, you can say the earth is either obstructing or giving energy to the moon.
Now look at the Sun. By observing the day lengths, they figured out that we receive varying amounts of energy from the Sun. Because they also figured out the equinoctial points, they also figured out that the solstices and equinoxes are a phenomenon caused by the earth. So it will be reasonable in their astronomical model to assume that the Earth was giving the energy to the Sun.
Next look at the sociological aspect. Mother is the one that gives birth to the child. The father is just an instrument. So it is the Mother that is all powerful.
Next look at the agriculture aspect. The field is ploughed, the seeds are sowed and the crops grow on mother earth. The act of ploughing and sowing seeds is the equivalent of the sexual union and the output is the crops that Mother Earth produces.
Again, the power is the Mother Earth. This is why Mother Goddess was so important to them.
Hope that clarifies your question?
Sridhar,
Thanks a lot. I love your additional interpretations. They are brilliant.
1. The cow’s gestation period being common with humans. This is too good. I need a citation.
2. not sure i agree with the menstruation cycle. but you could be right. In the paleolithic age, menstruation was a holy thing. Again, we need citations.
3. Thanks for concurring with me on the V, U symbol for women. I am almost done with the Da Vinci Code, and he says the woman symbol is a V. so i think this interpretation is correct.
4. The punar poosam for Rama coming ahead of poosam is a great catch. I hadn’t thought of that. Another thing that corroborates your view is that Rama Navami occurs right around the New Yeaar. This is the same way, Emperor Constantine, made Dec 25 as christmas to coincide with the Pagan winter solstice festivals.
4. The snake eating eggs and tying it to our eclipse beliefs is brilliant. I agree with you on that.
5. the 2 circles copulating for muruga is brilliant. i need to think some more. Parpola has also assigned muruga to the 2 intersecting circles.
5. Pillaiyar interpretation is very creative. I haven’t really paid that much attention to Ganesha. let me think some more.
6. Kadaaru Maasam, Naadu aaru Maasam is another creative interpretation. You could be right.
7. Kundru as Bosom is brilliant. I have been wondering why they associated mountain with mother goddess. I think you are on the money. In tamil Mulai is breast and Malai is Kundru – both are very close to each other – could have been homonyms. So i agree with you on this.
8. i didn’t understand your Uthiradam comment?
Overall, superb piece of detective work. well done.
Sukumar,
I had copied the wrong address for the Gestation citation. Here is the right one – http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gestation
Granted, it doesn’t cover all mammals and we need a citation for it, but it seem to cover all common animals (domesticated ones)
Regarding Uthiradam, it means the red star – the 21st day in the moon cycle. Comparing it to a woman’s cycle, this is the day red spotting begins and goes until 28th day.
Sukumar,
Jackpot! Eureka! Please look below.
——————————————————–
Traditional sources agree that the menstrual cycle is linked to the cycle of the moon. These sources generally indicate that women menstruate at the time of the new moon, and ovulate at the full moon. Although scientific evidence for this has been weak, the problem may be that most women today live in urban environments where the moon is no longer a significant contributor to nocturnal light…
The word “menstruation” is etymologically related to moon. The terms “menstruation” and “menses” come from the Latin mensis (month), which in turn relates to the Greek mene (moon) and to the roots of the English words month and moon — reflecting the fact that the moon also takes close to 28 days to revolve around the Earth (actually 27.32 days). The synodical lunar month, the period between two new moons (or full moons), is 29.53 days long.
——————————————————————-
You can read the rest of it in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Menstrual_cycle
Now, whether or not this is scientifically provable that menstruation is related to the moon, it should be easy to understand that people thought the moon cycle is related to menstruation, hence the name.
See the same Wiki entry for fertile window. It’s 5 days prior and 1-2 days after ovulation (which makes 7 days). I was mis-reading the seals from left to right. If you read it from right to left (as it should be), the 5th palisades is the one who has the root (inverted U) on her head to indicate that that’s the day of ovulation. That’s why 7 is very important for IVC.
I validated that the same 7 is important in Sri Lanka today as well. Apparently, in SL, for marriage or for birth of a child (baby shower), 7 women have to go to the pregnant women’s house to wish her. Interesting, isn’t it.
Also, check out http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Culture_and_menstruation
Another thought!
Why Pongal Panai? Why should it boil over? Why a panai made out of earth (clay)? Why a Sugarcane when so many other crops exist?
My theory – Women were getting pregnant in spring and delivering around the same time crops were being harvested. Women were compared to mother earth. Do you see the similarities in women’s delivery and pongal panai? The pregnant woman’s tummy looks similar to a panai as well.
I think it is very very symbolic? Sugarcane – I think it is a representation of male phallic symbol again.
Thanks Sreedhar. The gestation period interpretation makes a lot of sense now.
As for Pongal, very interesting. i think you are right.
Sreedhar,
That is a great find on the connection to menstruation and the moon cycle. Very interesting. As i said before, Menstruation was a holy thing even during the Paleolithic age.
Sukumar
1. Please substantiate how you figured out Rigvedic Samhitas to be in the 1500-1900 BC period.
2. PT Srinivasa Iyengar ,( one of the earliest to state that the Sumerians had a lot in common with Tamils, and who even went to the extent that it was Tamils who walked the coastline into Sumeria) stated that the Indus Valley Civilization- (now popularly called Indus Saraswati Civilization), is having unmistakable stamps of the so called Aryan Civilizations. (http://books.google.com/books?id=ERq-OCn2cloC)
This debunks the ‘Aryans were village based’ theory.-any comments ?
3. Subsequent to point 1, here are some random comments
a. River Saraswati is mentioned some 60 times in Rigveda. This mythic river is now reality. Thar desert
was once irrigated by it. Mohanjadaro, harappa and nearly 2600 sites now form part of the Indus-
Saraswati civilisation . Evidence points that
around 3000 BC the river dried out.
How come
the RigVeda mention in 1500 BC about a lost river ?
b. When will you place the Bhagavad Gita in the timeline ? Srinivasa Iyengar, and now a host of
historians seem to agree that such a war took place.
c. We all know that the vedas were sruti only till before the Mahabharata period. Then in all probability
the Indus Saraswati people did not need a language to write down the vedas. Whatever was written
must have been something else. Right ?
d. If, indeed, vedic period was 1500 – 1900 BC, when was Buddha born ? I have a small piercing
article that questions the very basis of Buddha’s timeline. I will share it somewhere in this thread. I
think some blogs have also come up on this.
4. Many historians have now given up both the invasion and out of India theory- except, of course, our marxists. It gives them a kick to say India was primitive.
5. have anyone, ever wondered how the Dixits of Chidambaram Temple settled in Tamilnadu ? It is, I think , another riddle in the puzzle. Thammanna Chettiar, a reputed scholar on Saiva Siddhanta, writes that the Nataraja Vidya (the symbology of Nataraja,) came from IVC- now Indus Saraswati Civilization. I think, it must have been the Dixits who brought this secret here.
6. Similarly the horses and Chariots theories have bitten dust long back.look at the gosai site.
Venkat
Venkat,
thanks for stopping by.
1. How did i conclude that vedas are from 1500-1900 BC? I never used those dates. The popularly accepted dating for RV is 1500-1000 BC. I actually think the dates are slightly different but these dates are definitely acceptable.
2. I didn’t know about P.T. Srinivasa Iyengar’s work. It will be nice if you can provide a citation for these things that you say P.T. Srinivasa Iyengar said.
3. The reason we see RV talking about Saraswati in 1500 BC is because they are talking about Harahvati in Afghanistan. The fact that Ghaggar Hakra dried out is irrelevant.
4. How is the date of the Bhagavad Gita important?
5. Which are these historians that you speak of that have given up on Aryan Invasion and Out of India theories? Please give me citations and i will review them. BTW, I actually think that the IVC was more advanced than the Vedic civilization that amalgamated with the IVC. So i don’t understand your point on India being primitive?
6. What is the relevance of Dixits in Tamilnadu? There are several Brahmin communities in Tamilnadu who can all trace their lineage back somewhere to the Vedic age. So what is special about the Dixits except that they are at a popular temple? I would like a citation on this Thammanna Chettiar work. I will review it get back to you with my opinion.
7. Horses and Chariots theories have bitten the dust. Excellent. What are the citations for this?
Venkat,
“Now popularly called the Indus-Sarasvathi civilization”? No respected historian calls IVC by that name. Its an attempt by Hindutvadis to push their agenda – that the Vedic people were not nomads.
Let’s assume that the “Marxists” are trying to say that IVC is not Vedic. How does it make our ancestors primitive? Aren’t they saying that IVC was a great pre-vedic culture? As long as you feel pride in the IVC culture, what they say shouldn’t rankle you. Unless you want to believe that India = Vedas & any other idea that upsets this belief rankles you.
Sarswathi is the Ghaggar-Hakra river? Again, proposed by the same historians I see. Please tell me if you’ve read the Rig Veda. Sarsvathi is described as Naditama, a mighty, ferocious river. Ghaggar was a puny river fed by rainwater streams! Hakra dried up after Sutlej changed its course. But Sarasvathi is described as a greater river than Sutlej & Beas. If Ghaggar-Hakra needed Sutlej’s waters to look respectable, it just odesn’t measure up!
Please read Asko Parpola or Iravatham Mahadevan if you think Romila Thapar is a “Marxist”. They are the world’s most reputed Indologists.
I’m yet to understand why you dragged Buddha into this! His dates are well documented.
Priya & Sukumar
All the links that I had provided had somehow did not show up on publication. Again they are here
\
1. Saraswati river Civilization- http://micheldanino.voiceofdharma.com/indus.html. Michel Danino lives in Coimbatore and definitely not a Hindutva vadi. He is a disciple of Aurobindo.
2. P T Srinivasa Iyengar was a historian of 1920s . He was one of those proponents of the independent Tamil Civilization. The link is here http://books.google.com/books?id=ERq-OCn2cloC
3. I mentioned Bhagavad Gita specifically because . 1. Bhagavad Gita is predated by Upanishads by at least many millennia. 2. Upanishads are predated by Vedas . 3. Rigveda being the oldest, must be at least many millennia old. 4. By all certainties Gita Predated Buddha.
4. If you read Srinivasa Iyengar, you will see he agrees Mahabharata indeed took place.
5. To show the antiquity of the vedas this will help. In Vedic period, there were no temples. Temples were clearly post Mahabharata. mahabharata itself is a proof since there is not any mention of any temples. The temple based Hinduism is called Agamism. This fact is NOT known to many. Hinduism is a conglomorate of six religions faithful to the vedas. This is not also not known to many. What is the dating of the oldest temple in India ? Any guess ?
6. Saraswati is not Haggra . See Michel danino’s page.
7. I mentioned the dixits of Chidambaram to make a bell ring. I think you have not thought in that direction. These Dixits are a post Vedic , Agamist group, who are definitely of the hue of kashmir Pandits. You may know that Tamil and Kashmir Saiva sects share the same Agamas, honour saints mutually and are basically tantric. Kashmir Pundits are the leftover and migrated people of the original ISC- Indus Saraswati Civilization. These Dixits are said to be in Tamilnadu before Buddhist and Jainist influence- which means pre Christian Era. This will put another common perception in doubt. That the Indus valley was Dravidian. Dravidian society was post Vedic, and clearly Agamic . Agamism is a rigid caste based society while vedism was flexible.
if you were wondering how the Saiva Vaishna divide came into being, blame Agamism. The six religions had their own Agamas and each claimed its God was supreme. In Vedic society , this aspect is absent.
8. The article I talked about- another perspective about Indian History- here it is (rather long, but no other go)
Megasthenis and Indica
The earliest date which mentions about the Indian history is given in a book called ‘Indica’ written by Megasthenis. Megasthenis came from Greece to India during the reign of Alexander. Alexander’s invasion was during the period 322-327 BC. He mentions in his book that, during his visit, a king called ‘Sandracottus’ from a city called ‘Polibothra’ ruled India. Scholars have interpreted that this ‘Polibothra’ could be ‘Pataliputhra’ and this ‘Sandrakottus’ could be ‘ChandraGupta Mauriya’. Based on these facts, they have proved certain facts like the age of Buddha, the so-called ‘Aryan Invasion’ etc…But are these facts real? How could their authenticity be proved? This is the real question. If we try to check carefully the names of the kings given in our scriptures and the names given by Megasthanis, then we could come to a conclusion that the above said points about the British scholars are invalid.
Before checking these facts, another thing should be known. There were two ChandraGupthas in the Indian history. They are ChandraGuptha of the Mauriya Dynasty and ChandraGuptha of the Guptha Dynasty. The ChandraGuptha of the Mauriya Dynasty lived 1300 years prior to the ChandraGuptha of the Guptha Dynasty. This fact should be kept in mind before going to the next paragraph.
As I previously mentioned, when Megasthanis came to India, he says that a king called ‘Sandrakottus’ ruled the country. The British scholars and some Indian scholars too have interpreted that this ‘Sandrakottus’ was ChandraGuScottyptha Mauriya of the famous Mauriya dynasty. But, if we have a closer look, then we could establish the fact that this ChandraGuptha Mauriya is not the ‘Sandrakottus’ but it is ChandraGuptha of the Guptha Dynasty. The reasons are given below.
• The Greek book mentions about the kings who lived before and after Sandrakottus. The names given are Xandramas and Sandrocyptus. If we check the names with that of ChandraGuptha Mauriya whom the British Scholars say, the kings lived before and after ChandraGuptha Mauriya are: Mahapadma Nanda and Bindusar. Even if we look at these names, then we can very well see that the names given in the Greek book and the given names do not match phonetically. But, if we see the names of the kings before and after ChandraGuptha of the Guptha Dynasty, the kings are Chandramas and Samudragupta. Anyone can say that these two names phonetically match exactly with that of Xandramas and Sandrocyptus.
• Also, the Greek books remain silent about Chanakya and Asoka the Great (who is the grandson of ChandraGuptha Mauriya and whose empire is even bigger than ChandraGuptha Mauriya).
• The names of contemporary kings found on Ashokan inscriptions are Amtiyoka, Tulamaya, etc.. Amtiyoka ruled Afghanistan around 1475 BC, which then appears to be the approximate date of Ashoka (the grandson of Chandragupta Mauriya).
Therefore, from these above points, we could clearly see that the ‘Sandrakottus’ whom Megasthanis mentions is not Chandragupta Mauriya but it is Chandragupta Guptha who lived 1300 years after Chandragupta Mauriya.
The reason behind Scholars naming Chandragupta Mauriya as Sandrakottus could be that
Chandragupta Mauriya is the famous ruler and that Chandragupta Guptha was not very famous (most people don’t even know that such a ruler existed in the Guptha clan).
Also, When the British Scholars ‘made’ ChandraGuptha Mauriya as Sandracottus, they brought his period to 327 BC which was nearly 1300 years later. So, this caused the periods of many kings and famous personalities to be 1300-1500 years shorter than what they were originally.
So, it is very clearly evident that the fact of ChandraGuptha of the Guptha Dynasty is
Sandrakottus makes a giant leap of 1300 years in the Indian history. So, if we keep this in mind, we could derive the following periods:
Some Important Dates
Period
Names
3138-1634 BC Shishunaga and earlier dynasties
1887-1807 BC Gautama Buddha (AKA siddartha)
1864-1792 BC Mahaveer Jain
1634-1534 BC Nanda Dynasty
1534-1319 BC Mauriya Dynasty
1294 BC Kanishka of Kushan Dynasty
509- 477 BC Aadi Shankaracharya
327 BC Chandragupta Gupta
57 BC Vikramaditya Gupta
In the above table, ChandraGuptha Mauriya ruled during the last years of the Mauriyan Dynasty.
So, from all the above mentioned points, It becomes very clear and evident that The Indian history is 1300 years lacking which was due to the mistake made by the British scholars (either intentionally or unintentionally).
People may argue that the above list is completely wrong and misinterpreted. But, some facts like the birth of AdiSankara are clearly mentioned in the Sankara Vijayas which cleanly mention the year and month of the Birth of Sankara as 509 BC (2595 years after the birth of kaliyuga, which was born at 3104 BC). Also, the Bagavatha and other books give a detailed description about all the dynasties that came from the start of kaliyuga. So, this cannot be pushed aside as false.
Hence, these points clearly prove the very old heritage of the Indian culture, The Sanathana Dharma.
Finally, if we take all these points in to account, we can come to a conclusion that the vedic era is very very old which is above our imagination…
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
So, there exist details of our timeline within our Literature.
Also, Sukumar, Thammanna Chettiar is a Tamil writer. You have to buy his books. If you are in Tamilnadu, any decent book shop will have his books.
venkat
Venkat, with all due respect for Sir Aurobindo, ( I am a great admirer of Maharshi), is he not a big preacher of Hindutva? May not be of the type Sri Veer Savarkar but a different flavor?
Venkat,
Wow! I am glad to see that we are re-writing history. What inscription of Asoka talks about Amtiyoka and Tulamaya and how was the inference made that Asoka lived during the period 1475BC. I wish you had provided this scientific proof to our history writers. I am sure they’ll re-write it based on this theory.
You are aware of the concept of finding out age of metals and stone based on proven and accepted scientific approaches. You only lose your own credibility if your arguments have no basis of proof (other than interpretation by someone providing their opinion on Indica)
I read Srinivasa Iyengar notes, articles and letters earlier as part of my research on IVC. I have a good opinion on the man and I think most of his ideas are good, even if some are clouded in mis-judgement. Based on your notes, I quickly re-read the book as well. I think he has some very good points about IVC being Dravidian. Can you provide page references on where he says IVC is aryan? I couldn’t find that in the book. Yes, he has talked about Aryans in the book that you referenced, but it was not in relation to the IVC culture, unless I am completely missing it.
Before reading Parpola, I thought that the IVC script has to be alphabetic and was trying to interpret it that way. If I had written a book then, I’d have so many examples of why IVC script is alphabetic, but none worth the paper that it is written on. When I read Parpola, I changed my opinion as he had proven scientifically that IVC script can’t be alphabetic. I’d suggest that you do the same.
If you have an ax to grind, you’d never be able to see others point of view. If you have analyzed the indus script and the seals and you have proof that it resembles vedic culture, please provide examples and proof points. We can have an argument then. Without any burden of proof, if you want to just assert your opinion as facts, it only makes you look less credible. I am sure that’s not your goal.
Venkat,
Also went through the article you are quoting michael Danino. You are mentioning in your bullet #6 that he has proven that Saraswathi is not Haggra. Where did you see that in the article. Can you please quote the reference and underline it for my small and cynical brain. All due respect to Michael Danino, he is quoting Rajaram Jha as the expert on IVC. That pretty much did it for me.
I am sure you have read the article by Steve Farmer and Michael Witzel debunking Rajaram’s theory. If not, here it is
http://indology.wordpress.com/horseplay-in-harappa-the-indus-valley-decipherment-hoax/
Jha theories are not even accepted by right-wing scholars and you’re quoting him as the authority on IVC. BTW, I don’t agree with Steve Farmer opinion on IVC that it was a non-literature culture based on our inability to interpret the seals.
If your proof for having no hindutva ax to grind is Michael Danino, I am afraid that it fails the test based on your own article references.
Venkat,
1. I loved Vamsi’s response to your quoting Sri Aurobindo. With all due respects to the Spiritual Powers of that great man, when was he a historian? You won’t consult a philosopher for cardio-vascular diseases, would you? Then, why in the blazes would you refer to a philosopher for Ancient History?
2. I think NK Sridhar has beaten your point on Srinivasa Iyengar to a pulp. So, I won’t belabor this point.
3. Is there any basis – other than your faith – for believing that Gita should be “several millenia” older than the upanishads? Historians have dated the Rig Veda to be around 1000 BC – which is 3 Millenia old. How are you “certain that Gita predated the Buddha”? Please provide us proofs. Gut-feel isn’t enough.
4. If you read any of the historians we’ve recommended, they also think there will be some grains of truth behind plenty of chaff in the Mahabharata epic. So, what’s your point? How is that relevant to the post?
5. Sukumar’s post is about the “Indus Valley Civilization”. Its not about Agamism or temples. Could you care to explain the relevance of this point?
6. All the people who say that Sarasvathi is a dry bed in Rajasthan go on to say that Ghaggar-Hakra is Sarasvathi. You might be interested in knowing that Sarasvathi has been traced to a mighty river in Afghanistan. Please note that Kandahar was a region that Vedic people lived in. So, it seems probable. Shouldn’t you be glad that a sacred river has been identified & it hasn’t dried up? We are so excited about it.
7. Any proof for this point that Dravidians are post-Vedic? Other than your desire to revise history? What’s the connection of Dixits to the Indus Valley Civilization? Can you date them to 2500 BC? Buddhism & Jainism are from the 6th/7th century BC! We are not interested in “blaming” anyone for the 6 sects. We are merely interested academically in what happened. Religious texts have some historical facts in them – but you need to separate the wheat from the chaff, instead of getting overtly attached to your beliefs.
8. I fail to see the connection of “Indica” to a civilization that existed 2000 years before the arrival of Megasthenes. Really, you need to learn to post relevant points as comments. You can’t kill us by a deluge of data.
Sridhar
You said
+++ Wow! I am glad to see that we are re-writing history++++
Yes ! We have to. I am not the author of the article. But the contents are sgarp enough to make any one sit up and take notice. Well, I would have loved it if you went into details of the successive dynasties for the benefit of everyone.
You also said +++++All due respect to Michael Danino, he is quoting Rajaram Jha as the expert on IVC. That pretty much did it for me++++++
So, you have admitted one of the worst kept secrets of ‘writing’ Indian history. That ‘only the name matters’. Not the content. As a history student yourself, tell me where in the world such a thing is practiced ? Packs of so called historians, with no knowledge in Sanskrit, could make declaration with impunity about Indian history. One simple example. If you know the purusha sooktam, there is a sloka mentioning how the four varnas emanated from the purusha. The standard explanation available now with all the standard books is this ‘ the brahmins emerged from the head, the kshatriya from the arms, the vysya from the trunk, the sudra from the legs’. One of the historians, Majumdar, considers this as incorrect. He says the correct translation should be ” the brahmin became the head; the kshatriya its arms; the vysya its trunk and sudra its legs”
But, how many of our Thapars and Panickars know this ? I read somewhere that most present historians do not know that there are many shades of Sanskrit are there. Panini’s is one. Rigvedic Samhita sanskrit is the most ancient available. Bharatiar, in his intro to his Bhagavadgita commentary writes this.
Myself, as a layman am able to see the gaping holes in all the pampered theories. I am not a hindutva vadi. Simply a practicing Hindu.
You said+++++f you have analyzed the indus script and the seals and you have proof that it resembles vedic culture, please provide examples and proof points++++++++++++++
There is a site
http://www.gosai.com/chaitanya/saranagati/html/vedic-upanisads/aryan-invasion.html
You said +++++Can you provide page references on where he says IVC is aryan?+++++++++++
Go to page LVII of the intro section. He says ‘ where the impression of Aryan influence is NOT IMPERCEPTIBLE (emphasis mine)’ – but pray tell me, did you really grind my statement to pulp?
You also said about parpola. I saw in a list discussion where Parpola’s stand was criticised. That article by ‘Vedaprakash’ ( don’t climb on the dismissing stage again saying ‘no, no, he is saffron’) is not available off hand and I would try to get it.
To conclude, Sridhar, it is possible only in India that anyone can have a say about her history and this includes the right wing too. Pity, as a layman, I am completely fed up with the state of history writing as it exists today.
To date, I have seen the left historians go on a denial mode on everything ‘historic’.
Venkat
Venkat – So Thapar, Mahadevan & Parpola don’t know Sanskrit, but Majumdar does. Why should we disbelieve it, when we have your word for it?
Research has other basis, you know – its not based only on what the Rig Veda says. Bonafide research is based on pottery remains, linguistics, evidence from genetics, what other ancient people have to say about the culture under review, paintings – a lot of things in fact. Old languages are difficult & most people make some mistakes. That doesn’t mean every single thing they’ve said is incorrect. Its not all or nothing.
Rajaram/Jha are discredited because Rajaram doctored a seal. Of course we are going to ignore what he says, because he was a liar. Before you generalize what we do, please do yourself a favor & read about the “Indus Horse Hoax”.
You know, there’s a logical fallacy that I’m accusing you of. Poking holes in another theory doesn’t automatically prove your theory. You have to provide proof for your theory – that isn’t doctored by Hindutvadis – in terms that historians would accept.
What makes you think that only Indians have freedom of speech about their history?? There are many democratic countries, you know. This kind of baseless arguments only reduce your credibility.
You are fed up with the state of history writing. What a coincidence – We are too. We are fed up with what passes as “history” in this country. And the refusal to approach history objectively with a scientific temper.
Priya
Where did I touch your sensitivities that I see such force in your reply ?
You said+++++You won’t consult a philosopher for cardio-vascular diseases, would you? Then, why in the blazes would you refer to a philosopher for Ancient History?+++++++++
I mentioned Aurobindo because first , he had read the Vedas in their entirety. Second because, he HAD UNDERSTOOD THEM. When a discussion of the vedas comes up, shall we refer to the scholar or the librarian ?
Vamsi said +++++with all due respect for Sir Aurobindo, ( I am a great admirer of Maharshi), is he not a big preacher of Hindutva? May not be of the type Sri Veer Savarkar but a different flavor?+++++++++
Vamsi, Aurobindo was a spiritual giant. Not a religious one. If you are going to use the western religious terminology into Sanatana Dharmic discussions, you are bound to end in confusion. For example, in Christianity, the spirituality and religious are one and the same. In Hinduism , Sanatana Dharma , you are still spiritual even if you are an atheist. Kapila of Sankhya school is one example, Patanjali is another. Yet they are great Yogis whose work many Hindus read.
Priya said++++Sukumar’s post is about the “Indus Valley Civilization”. Its not about Agamism or temples. Could you care to explain the relevance of this point?++++++
There is !!. How can one accept a mathematician if he cannot recite at least the multiplication in correct order ? If one cannot understand what evolutions took place after the end of the Vedic period and what societal and religious changes took place, ONE CANNOT DREAM OF SOLVING the puzzle of Indian history. Whether one accepts or not, the present Hindu society is 99% Agamic. Below is my old blog when I tried to solve it for my own curious self.
http://bharataagamas.blogspot.com/2007/12/agamas-that-helped-shape-bharat.html
The Vedic civilization was yagnic. Agamic civilization was Temple based. In Indus Saraswathi, no temples have been unearthed so far. But many ‘yagnya vedis’ were found. Vedism had rituals for fire sacrifice and the later upanishads were created as a gist of the Aranyakas.
A little more about Agamism not found in my blog. Agamas are diluted, watered down versions of Vedas since they use maximum Vedic Mantras. Agamism arose to effectively curb Buddhist and jainist influences. Has any Historian dated the oldest temple ? Let me know. Vedism predates that temple very easily. As far as I know, besides P T Srinivasa Iyengar (page 112 of the book) no one has spoken of the agamas.
Without Agamas, Hindu society today is nothing. Saivam, Vaishnavam, Saktham , Ganapathyam, Souram and Koumaram are the six religions which evolved out of the Vedic community. They all have their own Agamas. The latter three have merged with the first three.
No historian has tried to find the timeline of the emergence of Agamas. Once such data is available, then only we can conclude the full picture.
Priya said+++++Really, you need to learn to post relevant points as comments. You can’t kill us by a deluge of data.++++++
I have tried to post most relevant ones. But I couldn’t help ‘killing’ since it was needed to put the perspective right. As Sridhar said, we are rewriting history.
Venkat
Venkat – That’s very nice. How did you conclude that Aurobindo had understood the Vedas in their essence? Could it be because you agree with his interpretation?
Have you read the other posts in this series by any chance? It is illogical to state that what happened in the agamic tradition (as in what happened many centuries later) dictates what happened in 2500 BC & in 1500 BC! BTW, you seem to be very fond of that theory. What do they say about “When you have a hammer, every problem is a nail”.
So according to you, we can’t interpret what’s happening in the 21st century – till we figure out what happens in the 40th century.
What is logical is to open our minds to what was happening in the rest of the world in 2500 BC & 1500 BC. The history of Sumeria, Egypt, Turkey etc.
India is not an isolated country. Its a fallacy to ignore that fact. Many people came in & settled in the fertile plains of the Ganges. And we have a richer culture because of all this. The same thing happened in almost all the countries – several waves of immigrants coming in. Why would India be any different? In fact, it would have attracted many nomadic people from arid Central Asia.
Oh, you haven’t killed anything. Irrelevant points won’t kill us. And a gentle reminder: We are not fighting a war. We are in the pursuit of truth. So, there are no “sides” & no “killing” – unless you want to prevent us from unearthing the truth. We are not rewriting history, but for the most part you seem to be referring to those that do.
It is a distinct possibility that errors have been made in this post. But what we’ll need to change our views is another point of view with some supporting evidence that is accepted by the historians. Or, another interpretation of the evidence available. As you can see in this BLOG, many people post their rendition of the available evidence.
Venkat – In all this, you know what makes me sad? Your desire to think of India as some hermetically sealed container.
When we went to Egypt, the locals thought I was an Arab. They were shocked to hear that I was an Indian. I’m an Iyer & I look very much like most South Indian brahmins. Most Egyptians have mixed ethnicity – light-skinned Arabic & dark-skinned Nubian. Similar to Indians. I’m not saying we are Arabic & Nubian – you get my point, right?
And it was not just my complexion. My features too, according to them. Isn’t it amazing how similar we are to other people in adjoining countries? Isn’t it wonderful that we share common points with people from neighboring regions?
And what creates this similarity, according to you? Historians take all this into consideration when they come up with their theories.
Sridhar
This is the content that I promised I would send. It was from another list, and the only way was to create a temporary blog.
http://iscdiscussions.blogspot.com/2008/02/indus-saraswati-civilization.html
The cntent is self explanatory.
Venkat
Interesting discussions.. probably, the discussion is getting more interesting..
Priya.. i think, we are deviating from the core topic.. IVC.. or ISC, as said by Venkat..
In that context, the following points are to be cleared.
1. How come the dating of IVC (ISC) are arrived? If we get cleared on this, then many other differences would be solved.
2. Venkat has constructed series of historic dates from Ancient text, both indian and greek.. Why not it be considered for analysis?
The following article is on the similar line..
http://www.boloji.com/history/030.htm
The author has reconstructed the ‘Royal Chronology of India’ with over 325 generations.. The excel sheet can be downloaded at the following URL.
http://www.newdharma.org/royal_chron.htm
I feel, the above data can be of great use to our discussions, as it also describes relevant data on other civilizations like egypt, sumerian etc. If you have any problem with these datas, please counter it with appropriate points.. simply blaming him to be hindutvavaadi is not suffice..
3. Regarding IVC dates, the following site (the alleged hindutvvaadi site
) has given some dates.. Any contradiction to that?
http://www.hindunet.org/hindu_history/sarasvati/html/civilizationdates.htm
4. And
the book explaining why IVC is ISC..
http://books.google.com/books?id=sEX11ZyjLpYC&pg=PA79&lpg=PA79&dq=saraswati+civilization+barc&source=web&ots=8_2kvAwoaC&sig=8nW6oIImhTDdETRhaN1Tkyy57j8
5. The following link by kalyanaraman also gives some sceintific evidence, on rediscovery of saraswati river, which seems to have originated from himalayas..
http://www.eshiusa.org/Articles/Saraswati%20in%20Hindu%20Civilizational%20History%20and%20Culture.pdf
6. Priya.. your question on how do you know aurobindo understand vedas, doesnt seem to be logical.. if the same question be asked against your references, there will be no end..
I think, the comments will be relevant, if we could focus on the above points.. As per the links given by me, around 80% of the sties are b/w indus and ganges.. Recent study by BARC also helps in dating the mythical river.. So the dried up saraswathi river originates from Himalayas and flown through rajasthan, whose traces were found in Nasa images..
More data in the following link..
http://www.stephen-knapp.com/recent_research_on_the_sarasvati_river.htm
If you are going to outrightly reject all these links, then i cant help.. if you disagree, please explain, where and why, from the above references..
Priya
When you talk of Historians and what is acceptable to them, we have seen a virtual war for over a hundred years on what is truth.
And you talked about about the truth: Well, can you define a truth in an acceptable manner to all ? There are many shades to truth, the lowermost to the topmost. Yes, truth can be relative too. Swamy Vivekananda, (is he too abjectionable ?) said, ‘man does not travel from falsehood to truth. He travels from truth to truth. From a lower truth to a higher truth’.
You said we are not fighting a war. Definitely I am not. I belong to an oppressed religion that has been gasping and fighting for survival for the past thousand years. Her history has been so distorted and defaced that even a good intentioned follower is left wondering what , for God’s sake, has happened.
you arote+++++And what creates this similarity, according to you? Historians take all this into consideration when they come up with their theories.+++++
Do they ? When they cannot find the obvious similarities between the southerners and Northeners in Bharat , which everyone pointed out , what kind of ‘theories’ do you expect will come out of their stable ?
Regarding the similarity, Just a thought. All the while, as a brahmin myself , I was left wondering how could I ever convince people the oneness of culture. But, the die had been cast in such an awkward moment, that before explanation, myself and a host of others like me, were reduced to such a state that the onus of answering questions like ‘ you were aryans, you suppressed us, you created caste etc.’But the real moment of explanation has never come.
If I had posted anything , according to you, irrelevant material, please point out. I will tell tell you why they are not. You would do well to reread the posts again to find worthies, even if you find a few.
Venkat
Venkat.. i like your vivenakanda’s quote of “From lower truth to higher truth”.. so, in this discussion, let’s stick to the core point, instead of deviating.. let’s focus on IVC date, and IVC as ISC..
If it comes to reliability of references, even Max Muller is not reliable.. He has written his theory based on his christian beliefs, that man was created by god 1500 years before Christ.. So as romila thapar, and other historians.. In that case, its up to us, to analyse and explore the truth..
As with this discussion, and the discussions that happened earlier, i feel, venkat’s point of “No temple found in IVC” has important place here…(because we discussed about various gods.. in that case, there should have been some temples for them in IVC .. right) and the earlier discussions in some way matches with venkat’s point of Yagnic.. but i am not sure of..
Let’s stick to the core point.. how the dates of IVC arrived..
Venkat – All the similarities between North & South: Can those be explained ONLY by assuming a Vedic IVC? That makes no sense to me. I’ve clearly mentioned that Aryans & Dravidians mixed together to create our unique culture. Let me repeat that point here, once more.
The mistake you make is in lumping together everyone that thinks Aryans came to India. This includes Marxists, Historians who didn’t understand Sanskrit, Dravidar Kazhagams AND people who are in search of truth.
This religion that is “gasping for breath” has 800 Million followers. I think Hinduism is a very successful religion that has managed to survive brilliantly in spite of all the onslaught from other religions. It did that by being receptive to new ideas. By blending Vedic ideas with Dravidian (for lack of a better word) concepts. By religious reformation. By letting people interpret the religion in multiple ways. By not getting stuck with 1 book. Its very unique in that perspective.
If you care to read what the respected historians state, you’ll see how they describe the similarities between North & South Indians. And they also explain the differences. In fact, explaining that is the objecive of the next post – #6, that is.
I think my comments already clearly indicate which parts of your comments are irrelevant. Please check them out again.
Priya,
You said+++++Can those be explained ONLY by assuming a Vedic IVC? That makes no sense to me++++
This is putting your words into my mouth. As you said , I am also for a clear, true picture of ISC whether it be Vedic, Dravidian or some X culture.
The 800 million is post independent explosion. The real Vedic spread was in spread of nations not just population. The alien religions spread only through rape and murder. What ramains is a shattered population , not sure of its own identity. Do you call this a successful one ? Don’t be cruel.
But, as Senthil has said, we shall stich to the core of this discussion. The timeline of the vedas and if possible of the ISC.
Venkat
Venkat – Hmm – cruel? Never thought I was “Tom Marvolo Riddle” material. But if you insist, I shall call myself “Lord Voldemort”. By all means, let’s stick to the core of the Indus Valley Civilization & the later Vedic Culture. I thought that was what we were doing anyway.
Priya,
Thanks a lot for doing an admirable job of jumping in and responding to this barrage of data points and comments from Venkat and Senthil.
Venkat/Senthil,
I am the author of this post. I am yet to see a single comment from you which actually confirms or criticizes the description i have provided of the IVC religion. I hope at some point both of you will be kind enough to do that and I also hope that you will give that response after a careful reading of my post.
Now coming to the data points you both have been generating. Do you both seriously believe that i wouldn’t have atleast read the theories from the highly popular Frawley, Rajaram, Jha, Witzel, Farmer, Knapp, Subhash Kak. Of course, I have. I don’t jump into conclusions without considering all the points of view – atleast the popular ones. I also read the specific links that Senthil provided – baboji, nasa images etc. as well.
With that intro, the IVC has been dated accurately because we have artefacts like seals, buildings etc. The problem of dating is a problem peculiar to the Vedas. That is because, our Vedic ancestors in their infinite wisdom, decided to keep an oral tradition. Interestingly, the same oral traditon was maintained by the Avestans as well.
And one of the main reasons there is so much confusion about dates is because, the Hindutvavadis want to prove that the Rig Veda was created before the IVC. Now for you to do that you will have to doctor a whole host of things including the Indus seals like Jha and Rajaram did.
So overall answer to your question to dates for IVC is simple – lookup the Wikipedia, the dates given there are accurate.
For the Rig Veda, the dating is a problem area which the Hindutvavadis have expolited to circulate all kinds of unscientific bullshit clothed in the garb of history.
If you read my next post #6, you will see my proof that the RV has nothing to do with the IVC whatsoever. You can date the RV to 50,000 BC with whatever evidence you can muster and it wouldn’t matter because the RV is not talking about anything that is important to the IVC people. I have also established in this post how the IVC trinity is different from the Vedic trinity. You will also see in my next post how the Vedic trinity that we now worship was not important at all to the RV creators. Clearly showing that the vedic trinity was created later amalgamating the IVC trinity. Interestingly, even the Saraswati river that the Hindutvavadis love so much doesn’t get any serious attention in the RV.
I rest my case.
Senthil – How did I miss this comment of yours? Perhaps it was waiting for moderation.
1. I humbly decline to conduct a class to you on radio carbon dating. You can start with that to understand how historians fix a date for cultures. There are several other techniques as well.
2. For your kind information, all the data indicated by you has been considered & analyzed as Sukumar mentions in his comment. If I start countering every single point made in every single revisionist site on IVC, my life will be over. If you have specific points to make, make them in your comment. Flooding your comment with links probably indicates that (a) you haven’t digested the information presented there or (b) you think a zillion links in your comment will scare us.
3. Same as above.
4. This entire series is about stating why “ISC” is a falsehood & a disservice to Indians & history-lovers around the world. You want views over & above that?
5. As it happens, we’ve read Kalyanaraman & also the Rig Veda and the Avesta. And we’ve also read other historians tracing River Sarsvathi to Afghanistan. Where its alive & kicking to this day. You’d rather it was dead & dried up.
6. What’s illogical is you finding my question illogical. Perhaps “logic” means some nice “feel good” thing in your dictionary. You & Venkat seem to think that Aurobindo had “UNDERSTOOD” (emphasis Venkat’s) the Vedas – as opposed to people who simply read it. Then, what makes you get this gut-feel that Aurobindo “UNDERSTOOD” it? I’m asking for data from you to support this gut-feel.
Oh, you can ask questions on how we form our knowledge base. I’m glad you asked. There are whole fields dedicated to Epistemology. I had even written extensive comments on Archana’s BLOG about how we should acquire knowledge & sort out dubious data. I take it you haven’t read them.
With all due respect, I’ve made my points Ad Infinitum – but what you want from me is to accept the baseless claims of a Vedic IVC. Which unfortunately, I can’t do. If reading the posts from Sukumar won’t give you pause, then you probably don’t want to understand why academics don’t take “ISC” seriously.
Priya.. as you said, i will specify important points from the links given in those links for our discussion .. can we continue that discussion in this post itself.. before that let me reread all the posts in this series, and quote only important points..
Regarding your point 4, that’s what i find this post most one sided .. right from series-1, it was decided AIT is true, and all discussions moved in that way.. while my knolwedge is very limited to conclude anything concretely, many factors which i consider as valid, is outrightly rejected. and the basic assumption (rather belief) i found in this post is that whatever britishers (i mean historians) told, were completely accepted without any doubt.. and that other forms of data, like cultural, scriptures of Hinduism etc are completely ignored (but the fact is much of clue in in the form of such scriptures).. I differ in this view..
Its open secret that many of world histories are written with christian chronology, and even max muller believed, that the world was created at 9:00 AM on October 23, 4004 B.C. and the great flood occurred in 2500 B.C… so according to him, it was impossible to date IVC prior to 1500 BC.. But the carbon dating of oldest sites of IVC is found to be 2550 (+ – 370) B.C. .. ( Thanks to my father, i studied in good school, and understood some basic things about carbon dating
)
And from other interpretations, the motive of AIT is understood.. the britishers in order to justify their occupation prepared this to mean “You yourself have conquered the native people…hence i also have the same right to conquer you.. so shut up and accept our rule..
” .. do you have any contradiction over my interpretation?
For other points made by you, i will find if findings of kalyanaraman & others are discussed in the earlier series..
Senthil – From your own admission, you haven’t read the Rig Veda. Whereas we have. So, clearly we have referred to the scriptures more than you have.
Contrary to what you think, not all scriptures are historical evidence. But rest assured that a lot of scriptures have been read & consulted.
Quoting Max Muller again? That tells me that you are unaware of the latest Indologists & what they have to say. You’ve brushed aside what they’ve said without even reading about it. Whereas, we’ve read Kak, Rajaram, Jha, Frawley (who renamed himself to Vamadeva Shastri! Must be related to Ramiah Shastri, Sukumar’s grandpa). Looks like we’ve been more open-minded than you.
If you understand Carbon dating, why ask me rhetorical questions on how the dates were arrived? There are more techniques & any decent history book will tell you those.
Asko Parpola & Iravadham Mahadevan were not British last time I checked. This series describes what has been accepted historically – and extends it a bit & that’s where Sukumar requests people to use their imagination to answer some questions, poke holes etc. In the interest of being sweet to all parties, it can’t post theories that have no scientific backing.
What do I have to say about your “interpretation”? How about this? That you love conspiracy theories. Probably because they keep your anger & hatred up – and that helps stoke your feelings of Nationalism. That you’ve flushed logic down your toilet, if you still think Parpola, a Finnish scholar, would propogate the British myths about AIT. And that you have no respect for the genius of Mahadevan, Parpola, Thapar or Kochhar – because you can’t digest what they have to say.
Venkat,
After going through your comments, I still fail to see how you are providing proof that IVC is vedic? Where is the burning evidence? Please don’t point me back to several blog entries. I can do the same and it will be a never ending discussion.
Can we please follow this approach – Some member in this group posts a blog, provides opinions and provides data points as to why they came up with that opinion. Can we use a similar approach if you are trying to come up with alternative approaches. Please don’t post a few xref and not tell us what the opinion is.
When I started reading on IVC, I didn’t really have an opinion on whether it was vedic or not. I just wanted to know everything about them and I still do. I asked you for proof points on seals and script that you consider talk about vedic culture and you pointed me to the site http://www.gosai.com/chaitanya/saranagati/html/vedic-upanisads/aryan-invasion.html
When I read that post by Svami B.V. Giri. I find it very odd that the good Svami has not provided any references either (if he is quoting university of berkeley, why not provide the reference for it). He is claiming that Siva is there in Vedas and Siva is a dravidian tradition. If you look through Sukumar’s post, he has proven that Siva was a name given to the dravidian god later. The name that the IVC people used for the sun god was Kaman.
Also, the references the good Swami is pointing to in Rig Veda where Indra is called Siva – I couldn’t find them – perhaps you can help me with the source Rig 2.20.3 “May Indra, called with solemn invocations. the young, the Friend, be men’s auspicious keeper,
One who will further with his aid the singer, the toiler, praiser, dresser of oblations”. Rig 6.45.17 “17 Therewith enraptured, Hero, slay our foemen, the unfriendly, Maghavan be they kin or strangers, Those who still aim their hostile darts to smite us, turn them to flight, O Indra, crush and kill them.” Rig 8.93.3 “3 The drops effused, the gladdening draughts, O Indra, Lover of the Son
As waters seek the lake where they are wont to rest, fill thee, for bounty, Thunderer.”.
I am using Ralph T.H Griffith 1896 translation of the Rig Veda. It is available in http://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/rigveda/index.htm If you’d like me to use some other generally accepted translation, please let me know.
On another aspect – the horse and the chariot – the good svami has provided a clay model of a horse and chariot, but perhaps forgot to mention the Seal number associated with it. Can you provide me with the Seal # so that we can validate that indeed it was found from one of the excavations? Svami’s claim is horses were there in Russia domesticated around 4000B.C. This might be true (i haven’t validated it). It still doesn’t prove that horses were there in IVC as there was no horse found in the excavation. He mentions that there were several horse traces found again without any references to site # with pictures.
Venkat – If you are writing a research paper that you want accepted, you’d quote every source possible and you did in your response. However, the sources that you refer to, don’t want to carry the same burden of proof. When they do that, their point of view is taken very lightly and ridiculed. Doesn’t it make sense to provide source references and how that source was interpreted? The one entry for which the source is given is the fire altar – there’s reference that fire altar was found in “public altars in the citadel, household altars in lower town, and public altars in a third separate group” (reference: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kalibangan ). I think this is interesting and I’ve read this before, but I don’t think this is the smoking gun (no pun intended).
When I asked you for references to the IVC symbols that you thought had resemblances to vedic period, I was expecting you to provide me with Seal # and how you interpreted them as resemblances. I was expecting you to come back and say that the ‘fish’ in seal H137 is xyz and this same xyz is referenced in Rig-veda, hence my theory. I wasn’t expecting a series of entries that others have written on things connected or not connected to the discussion and they don’t seem to provide the burden of proof. As I dig deeper and deeper into the rat-hole, I come up empty.
Think about this – If only we are able to date the Rig Veda easily and we are able to find the corresponding text in IVC excavations, the case is closed, right! Like Sukumar said, we didn’t bother to write down the date and claim that it has been word of mouth for many millennium before (how very useful for scientific proof). And none of the seals or bones excavated do far points to any similarities with the vedic culture.
I am a brahmin and my forefathers would claim that they’d give up their life to protect the brahmin way of life. I’d be thrilled if the IVC is proven to be a vedic culture as it shows lineage and history. But if evidences and truth points to the contrary, I am not going to sit and figure out how to fix the evidence so that I can feel proud of my 5500 year history instead of my 3800 year history. I’d suggest that you look at it from that perspective as well.
Sudhakar/Priya
Only you have rested. The case never rested. Not for the last century.
Can you tell me from what you studied of RV or whatever is available of it now, how many times Saraswati is mentioned ? Pity, the readable size of an article is so small, lest the shastris and jhas wouldn’t have posted the entire text of the Veda. But for the memory loss (or is it sheer downright dumbness) of the present crop of historians, a short article will suffice. I will also try to see first hand what I was receiving so far from websites and third party sources. Let us make it a sincere effort, so that the truth come out.
Leaving the b…hit of the hindutvavadis aisde, let us return to the neat and trim world of cut and paste historians who are never short of surprises. Vedaprakash clearly has documented what transpired in His Feb 19 dated post. And still you call them historians. And you base your argument about timeline on them.
And , the gosai.com site mentioned finding OHM symbols, and Yagya Vedis . How do they fit in with your trinity ? Try asking Thapars. They will tell it is an optical illusion, the likes of which Jha is expert in making. And what about the ISC bangles from arist to elbow ? And who are the Rajastani women who wear the same kind of ornaments ? Ghosts of the eliminated civilization ? Or the leftovers of that ‘invasion’ ? The historians counted 37 skeletons in the residential town because of that invasion. This is the Aryan Holocaust.
Will Priya be kind enough to tell what she understood in the Vedas other than Aurobindo did ? Also, as this exchange has gone into credential checking, I also recommend the link I provided to Sudhakar. You will know. Also, the link from Sudhakar had a postscript of how ‘dangerous’ Rajaram was since he represented the RSS. So anyone having links with Sangh Parivar, is dubious. How about a declaration that History is always leftward ?
Venkat
Venkat,
Please read Sukumar’s original post Real History of India Part 6 again. He has covered that Saraswati is mentioned 73 times in Rig Veda.
I went through the “historian” Vedaprakash comments in your blogpost. You are claiming that since Steve Farmer has disagreed Parpola’s theory, we should disbelieve Parpola. Does that mean we should believe Steve Farmer? Please tell us what your opinion is.
If Steve Farmer should be believed, then IVC was an illeterate culture. I am sure that stings you even more, given that your viewpoint is that IVC = Vedic culture.
Venkat – If you took some time to actually read what’s in this BLOG, you wouldn’t be asking some questions. Concordance for “Sarasvathi” is mentioned in #6.
You are the one quoting that Shri Aurobindo “UNDERSTOOD” vedas better than historians like Parpola. The onus is on you to prove that statement. Its illogical to drag me into this, since the original statement from you was different. Changing arguments mid-stream is a logical fallacy.
I’ve read the Rig Veda, but don’t claim to be a great Vedic scholar. I know more about Vedas than most people who claim to be defenders of the Hindu tradition, since I’ve actually cared to read it. I’m quoting Parpola & others, who have a beautiful grasp of the Vedas. He started his life as a Sama Vedic scholar & he’s a PhD in Indology.
Venkat,
I see that I haven’t responded to all your comments addressed to me. Here I go.
On N.S Rajaram & Jha – “So, you have admitted one of the worst kept secrets of ‘writing’ Indian history. That ‘only the name matters’” – I beg to differ. I did read Rajaram & Jha before forming my opinion on them. I also quoted Steve Farmer (who according to you is the authority because he has discredited Parpola). Please see what Steve & Michael have to say about Rajaram. I think Rajaram and Jha are trying to cook up history and it doesn’t smell good to me. Please read the link below before you form an opinion. You can’t be selective in choosing Steve Farmer – agreeing with him when he discredits Parpola and ignoring him when he calls Rajaram & Jha close to criminals. http://indology.wordpress.com/horseplay-in-harappa-the-indus-valley-decipherment-hoax/
I am not sure what Purusha Sooktham has to do with the topic of conversation. If there’s a connection, please let me know.
I’ve responded to your Gosai href in my previous post.
Regarding Srinivasa Iyengar’s book, thank you for providing the reference page. I see that the great man has provided lots of references on why he thinks IVC is influenced by aryan impression. If this is your burning bush, please try again. Like I said earlier, I have good opinion on Srinivasa Iyengar and his work on IVC even if some of this thoughts are clouded in mis-judgement.
I have responded to the article by Vedaprakash – he is using Steve Farmer to discredit Parpola. If you think you agree with Steve Farmer, think again. Farmer thinks that IVC is illiterate. I have read Steve Farmer’s theory. He has used a scientific approach to prove his theory. I might not agree with him on it, but I think he has an opinion that is valid.
On your point about left wing history “To conclude, Sridhar, it is possible only in India that anyone can have a say about her history and this includes the right wing too. Pity, as a layman, I am completely fed up with the state of history writing as it exists today.
To date, I have seen the left historians go on a denial mode on everything ‘historic’”
Are you worried about India being democratic. Why shouldn’t anyone question it’s history when it has not been written down.
If all history writing ever entails is to write what fits our ideology and not worry about proof, I am sure we would have re-written it by now many times over. Funny me, I thought the purpose of history is to know what happened and not look it through left or right pink tinted glasses.
Do you remember the science experiments from 5th/6th grade. We were asked to do our experiments and asked to write it under 3 broad categories “Aim, Method/Approach used, Conclusion”. Now, if you look at IVC and Rajaram & Jha’s interpretations and have them fill out their “Aim” section, I am sure it will say “To prove, by any means necessary, IVC is Vedic Culture”. Fortunately for us, Asko Parpola, Iravatham, Steve Farmer, Michael W, Gift Sironmoney, and Dr. Haq don’t have such ax to grind as their “Aim”.
Well Sridhar
May I ask you, as a history student, that evidence for a particular can be within as well as without. How many extraneous evidences have ‘your’ historians cross checked ? For example, here is a little literary evidence;
In ThirukkuraL (1/9)
koLil poRiyin guNamilave eNguNathAn
thALai vaNangAth thalai
meaning
Like senses stale that head is vain
Which bows not to Eight-Virtued Divine. ( Commentary- Suddhananda Bharati)
Ask Parimelazlagar, the top commentator for ThirukkuraL: He says the eight virtues of the Lord are talked here as per the saiva Agamas (It is Shiva he is talking about).
I took the case of ThiruvaLLuvar, since, his timeline is well established. If in 30 BC, ThiruvaLLuvar knew Agamas, then Agamas, must have predated him. And mind you, these eight virtue affair is of the Gnana Pada of them not the Sariya and Kriya (karma Pada). If Agamism is fully evolved
1. it would be at least a millennium for this process- Agamas are bigger than Vedas. They had supposedly millions of verses- the 28 of them.
2. If Agamas are that old, then Atharva Veda, on which these Tantric Agamas are based, must be still older. But conventional timing for Atharva Veda is later.
3. Another curious link is that the Tamil (read so called Dravida) and Kashmir (so called Aryan) Saiva sects share the same Agamas, much before the Christian Era. How did these two opposing cultures share such a tradition ? Imagine there was a six thousand mile gap between them.
4. Dr Loganathan, now a retired researcher, had done something on Sumerian Writings. His site is
http://arutkural.tripod.com/
He says the Sumerian God Seir i Mal- the Black coloured God and Tamil Thirumal are the same. Also, he points that the Sumerians were temple worshippers and like the Tamil Agamists, sang epithets in front of the statues of God in Temples. And we have PT Srinivas Iyengar Saying it was the Tamil who walked along the western coastline right upto Sumeria.
What is the conclusion from these seemingly disconnected evidences ?
Here is the vast Indus Saraswati civilization spread around 2,600 sites and the eight times Tamilnadu’s size, (so far found), tucked between Kashmir and Sumeria ,but not affected by the Agamist influences when its neighbourhood was reverberating with it at around the same period?
Agamism is what I call evolved Sanatana Dharma from the Vedic roots. Agamism is fireless worship. If Agamism spread to Sumeria across the Khyber, then why not ISC ?
Another fact here is that Agamism is Post Mahabharata (PTS). I would call Bhagavad Gita the starting point of Agamism.
My conclusion is
1. ISC is Pre Agamic and therefore Vedic
2. There was no Dravidianism- they had their ideological connections with so called Aryans.
Now I am coming to the link you provided the ‘Horse Play’
The learned compiler of the blog says thus:
++++++Racism arose in the world society as a well-developed theory only in the 19th century, even though it has been prevalent in India in the form of the caste system from about the 8th century+++++
And we have Appar, the Tamil Saint, singing thus in the fourth century- (NamachivAya Thiruppathigam)
…anthanark karungalam arumaRai ARangam
( the hall mark of a brahmin are the precious vedas and its six limbs)
again
“…kulamilanAyinum kulathirketrathor nalamigak koduppathu namachivAyave”
(even if one is not born in the appropriate caste , the mantra Namachivaya wil bestow the appropriate benefit)
So, the caste or rather varna system was entrenched in the so called Dravida Land much earlier. Thiruvalluvar himself was a ‘Valluvar’.
–So much for the scholarship of those Horse Players.
So what I finally conclude ?
THE HISTORY OF INDIA , ESPECIALLY THE INDUS SARASWATI CIVILISATION, HAS BEEN WRITTEN CALLOUSLY AND WITH CONTEMPT TOWARDS ITS CULTURE. The piecing together of facts was one sided.
You see Sridhar, I have asked all the above as a lay person. If so much strikes me, then for someone, who gets into research mode the differences will be glaring.
Venkat
Sukumar
In your last post (not the last laugh ?), you had stated that you ‘had considered’ all data available and have come to the present conclusion.
May I ask you, what did you find there to be disregarded ? I know the reference content is massive and inappropriate for a coments only forum. But, in short, can you tell us ?
I think Senthil’s limk to Kalyan is good. Kalyan has given concrete evidences.
Venkat
Venkat,
Let me break this news gently to you: If you want any view to be taken seriously, it has to go thru a scientific, peer review. Such reviews are rigorous. This series is based on ACCEPTED history.
What you want us to accept is drivel that was NOT ACCEPTED by an August committee of historians. What did you think, that proposing new ideas on history & getting a stamp of approval would be a slam dunk? Do you know how much trouble every researcher goes thru to get their opinions whetted & accepted?
Such review committees are made of experts. And no, these experts are neither morons nor are they conspiring for the downfall of India. They may make mistakes – Please don’t delude yourself that you’ll make less mistakes in reviewing evidence. If your approach to history in the comments is any indication, you won’t know how to check your religious biases at the cloak room.
And you are deeply distressed that we pooh-pooh “evidence” that was rejected by August Committees. Why do you care so much about what we think? You can try all you want, but if you want the world to take your opinions seriously, take them to such committees for approval. There are no short-cuts.
By all means, you can present them to us. We’ll be glad to look at new perspectives. But, we’ll question you rigorously. What, you want people to ease your way in? If you don’t want to be questioned at all, become the dictator of this country. We’ll know you’ve become the ruler by reading the papers. Then, we’ll either move to a different country or march to your orders.
You are not going to get a clean pass from us, least of all from historians – unless you put in a lot of effort in convincing us with a fine grasp of history & newly accepted evidence or a new interpretation of accepted evidence.
And you thought Max Muller & William Jones had it easy, right? Its very easy to speak sneeringly of Max Muller because you found some holes in what he did. But Max Muller was also a Vedic scholar & it would be ridiculous to flush his genuine contributions down the toilet, just because we know now that he made some mistakes.
We expect people to read what we’ve written. People can provide extensions to accepted theories. They can also propose new theories, but they shouldn’t complain when we question them. So, if you want to make valid points – make them. If you only want to rant & rave about how we don’t look twice at unsubstantiated claims – don’t be surprised with a less than warm response from us.
Weren’t you the one that was shocked by my tone? And what about YOUR tone to Sukumar in your previous comments? Can only preach to others, huh? At least my responses to you have data in them & I don’t twist what others have said.
I’ve tried to explain this to you in myriad ways & I thought I’ll write this out in black & white.
Venkat,
Here’s my goal – “I am trying to understand what IVC contained by going through the symbols, the food they ate, the religion they followed etc. I don’t have any pre-conceived notion on what it should be”
From what you are stating, I understand your aim/goal as “Establish that Vedas are older than IVC. By establishing this, I can prove that IVC is part of vedic culture as it came after that. I then necessarily don’t have to look at the symbols or do additional research”
The issue here is, we both have 2 different aim/goal statements and hence we are not seeing eye to eye. My goal statement will never match yours or yours mine. We can choose to agree/disagree on this and move on. You are providing reference after reference for me to understand the vedic culture and establish that it is older than IVC. It doesn’t fit my goal statement and so I don’t have to do your homework for you.
You are barking up the wrong tree by trying to establish that Vedas are older than 1700BC. We are not the authority to give you that seal of approval nor will we ever be. When we (as a country/civilization) chose to write down Rig Veda only around 9th – 7th century BC ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rigveda ) we should have realized the error in our judgment by not writing it down earlier.
Good luck to you in your goals. Like they say in Star Wars – may the force be with you.
/**Sukumar
In your last post (not the last laugh ?), you had stated that you ‘had considered’ all data available and have come to the present conclusion.
May I ask you, what did you find there to be disregarded ? I know the reference content is massive and inappropriate for a coments only forum. But, in short, can you tell us ?
I think Senthil’s limk to Kalyan is good. Kalyan has given concrete evidences.
Venkat**/
I am responding to this comment Venkat. I guess you are using the age-old tactic of attacking the arguer because you have run out of material on your side.
Here is what i actually said which you have conveniently twisted:
“I don’t jump into conclusions without considering all the points of view – atleast the popular ones. I also read the specific links that Senthil provided – baboji, nasa images etc. as well. ”
I don’t think anyone will claim they have read it “all”. I certainly didn’t.
If you can read english, you will notice that i said atleast the popular ones. Additionally i also read Senthil’s links which i was not aware of. Your whole theory of Agamism – has any historian published it? I will then read it. If it is your theory, please publish it in your blog with relevant citations, i will read it and comment on it.
As to why i rejected all the Anti-(Aryan Invasion Theory)-theories, i actually didn’t reject them entirely. I picked good arguments that i thought were valid points against the AIT and I used that to do some more research to figure out my position. In my view, there are no all-correct or all-wrong theories – it is only a question of which theory is more accurate and has the least flaws.
Hope that answers your taunting question? Again, i dislike the tone you use. And again, if you don’t like what i am writing, you can read other blogs that conform to your world views. You are certainly not going to change my well-thought-out world view with some half-baked theories propounded by Hindutvavadis.
Sukumar,
I will definitely apologise if you point where my tone was offending.
If I wanted to attack you in any way, will you please show ? Probably your obsession with your views is such that any attack on the views is being construed as attack on you.
Well, I am not complaining. I have taken the b…t and the likes in my stride and went ahead. I was told that I had an axe to grind, my ideas a logical fallacy, etc etc.,
Now see who’s been attacked ? And who complained ?
Well Sridhar, It was some meaningful exchange, I was able to project my views as a lay person and now go off without any feeling of great loss either.
I am following your advice of leaving. Thank you. I will still watch the proceedings till you post about the offences I uttered. I will definitely keep my word on apology.
Venkat
Priya & sridhar..
I think, your position is not acceptable to me. (i dont know about others).. you want everything about india be approved from that august commitee (even if they dont have even a bit of knowledge it it) .. so only what is said by them is history, and what is said by indian scientist are worthless, as per your opinion.. do we have anything called self-reliance, where we have the confidence and trust to understand our history from our own inferences..
And i am really surprised, that you certified those august historians to be genuine, those people, who practice racism, till this moment.. and i hope, you have heard of how the western scientific discriminated our ramanujams and J.C Bose.. and hope, you know how J.C. Bose’s finding was stolen and later announced as found by marconi .. and i have also quoted you how, they wrote cheapest things about Hinduism, in the name of academic research.. (pls read atleast the book review of “Invading the sacred” ).. i doubt on the credibility & motives of those historians you quote..
After all these discussions, i concluded that the problem here with is accepting the sources.. a person, who have read about agamas, and in turn contribute some points from them, is completely ignored .. you have created a negative brand called Hindutvavadis, and when anyone is tagged as hindutvavadi, all he says is automatically considered as crap ..
Your position is supporting autocratic & against the principle of vedas itself.. (Let knowledge come from all sources..) .. yes.. by autocratic means, i am forced to accept what those commitee decide, and not from my own analysis or from my own understanding ..
Btw, I dont find any answers for venkat’s question which he quoted from agamas, except that you and sridhar attacked venkat’s position .. (which often you accuse of me & him.. )
Venkat,
You certainly twisted my words by saying “all data available”. I see twisting my words as an attack. If you say you didn’t attack and it is my misunderstanding, well i don’t agree because anyone can see that my words were twisted. But since you apologized, i accept your apology.
Here is the irony. Right next to the apology, you opened another attack “Probably your obsession with your views is such that any attack on the views is being construed as attack on you.”
this is what is called ruining an apology with an excuse.
I am sure anyone reading this comment trail can see who is obsessed with their views.
Sukumar,
Regarding your position on agamas to be certified by historians, we need to consider the situation that anything from India, is either branded as Hindutvavaadis, and something that is outrightly rejected as “Not enough proof”.. i may not know agamas and vedas.. but, from venkat’s comment, he seems to know about them. and you also know about them.. Is it not enough that we discuss and find truths based on our own knowledge..
Ok.. even in that case, what are the historians, you would like to get agamas certified .. I would prefer, those who are expert on agamas be right person to be certified, than those who dont know anything about it.. not certainly from romila thapar, and other marxists, who now occupy most of intellegentsia..
I think, unless we recognize each other, this discussion would not be fruitful..
Senthil – Aw, come on. Where’s your spirit? Here are my feeble attempts to answer your questions. {in a humble voice} I did my best, saar.
>>you want everything about india be approved from that august commitee (even if they dont have even a bit of knowledge it it) ..
>>so only what is said by them is history,
>>and what is said by indian scientist are worthless, as per your opinion.. do we have anything called self-reliance, where we have
>>the confidence and trust to understand our history from our own inferences..
Iravatham Mahadevan is not Indian?? When I met him 2 weeks back, he pretended to be an Indian! He was lying?? Well, Senthil – I have a bright idea which might work. Let’s be self-reliant & make Rajaram & Jha the “Supreme Council of Historians in India”. Anything to make you happy, my dear
>>And i am really surprised, that you certified those august historians to be genuine, those people, who practice racism,
>>till this moment..
What?! And I thought Fritz Staal looked like a venerable gentleman! But, he’s a white man, so he must be a racist! I’ll give him a piece of my mind. Never you worry, Senthil.
>>and i hope, you have heard of how the western scientific discriminated our ramanujams and J.C Bose.. and hope, you know how
>>J.C. Bose’s finding was stolen and later announced as found by marconi ..
I thought thieves stole from everyone & didn’t target Indians? No? Then this must be a conspiracy against our nation!! Soliders, Present Arms! Chaaaaaarge!!!
>>After all these discussions, i concluded that the problem here with is accepting the sources.. a person, who have read
>>about agamas, and in turn contribute some points from them, is completely ignored
I’ll speak immediately to all the universities in the world & rectify the situation immediately. From now onwards, no one shall question people who say they’ve read the agamas!! If any filthy person attempts to question them, the questioning weasels are incredible, er, not credible historians. So there!
>>Your position is supporting autocratic & against the principle of vedas itself.. (Let knowledge come from all sources..) .. yes..
>>by autocratic means, i am forced to accept what those commitee decide, and not from my own analysis or from my own
>>understanding ..
How about this? “Let knowledge come from all sources. As long as it doesn’t come from the racist, authorized historians who we suspect are out to smear our names”. There, that’s a very Vedic position
>>Btw, I dont find any answers for venkat’s question which he quoted from agamas, except that you and sridhar attacked
>>venkat’s position ..(which often you accuse of me & him.. )
How remiss of us. We were under the mistaken impression that we were discussing the “Indus Valley Civilization” & how the “Aryans” entered the country. But now we realize that we are discussing pretty much anything you & Venkat want to discuss. We won’t make that mistake again. So, tell me – what shall we discuss next? Perhaps a nice blow-by-blow of the bloody imperialists & how they looted India in the 18th century? Er, that was just a suggestion. Because I realize we can’t discuss what happened in 2500 BC unless we understand what happened in the 18th century AD
There, now I’ve tried my best to make you happy
Senthil,
Please read my comment again. I also mentioned that Venkat could publish his research on the Agamas on his blog with citations and we will review it. I asked if any historian has published because i had not heard of this theory? Did i say there is not enough proof for his theory? he has not published it yet. He seems to have published a few posts on this subject on his blog – but there are no citations, no way to understand how he came to the conclusions that he came up with. Once he writes a post with all the citations, we can review and comment.
But does it occur to you even one minute that this post is about the IVC religion? Neither you nor Venkat have bothered to read it or comment on it. But you want us to discuss Venkat’s agama theory which is not connected to this post at all!
Well you have your own branding technique don’t you – marxists, pseudosecularists, racists etc. So why do you get upset with the term Hindutvavadis. Don’t throw stones when you live in a glass house – old saying.
Romila Thapar is one of the best historians we have and she is an Indian last time i checked. If you don’t like her views, that is your problem. Or maybe for you the only august historians are Jha and Rajaram who doctor Indus seals to prove their point.
I am sure David Frawley and Stephen Knapp who you so fondly quote don’t belong in the out-to-defame-india-racist-club because they support the Hindutva view, right?
Do you even know what qualifications Mueller, Parpola, William Jones, Prinsep etc have? Do you know how many years they have spent on Indology?
It is a pity to see that real data does not matter to you even an iota. But empty divisive rhetoric and revisionism are enough to satisfy you.
Venkat,
I am glad you are able to go off without a feeling of great loss.
I was going to write a response on your Thirukural post, but then on second thought, you’re using the same approach that you’ve used in all your other posts – figuring out how to pre-date evidence that already exists. We only have written evidence on anything from 9th century BC (Rig veda was written down only then). So, anything that is written had to talk about things that happened many millenniums before. Hence, you are bringing up thirukural and your Agama theory to re-track and prove Rig-veda is older.
Do you see the pattern? You are trying to establish that Vedic culture pre-dates IVC with no proof to provide. Yes, your point defies all commonly accepted date range for Rig Veda, hence, there should be a conspiracy theory and people should have looked at the vedas callously.
If you’d like us to take you seriously, please refrain from pre-dating Rig Veda from it’s current accepted timeline without providing proof (other than your trigger-happy-add-the-millennium approach, or attacking historians, or using your own interpretation of what’s given in the texts without basis). Please also refrain from dumping evidence that is not related to the topic and that has no proof points in them either. Please don’t try to change the topic of discussion to meet your goals either. These are simple requests and if you are able to adopt them, you are more than welcome to stay and provide comments, thoughts or feedback. The more people contribute, the quicker we can achieve our goals.
I’d like you to think deeply about what Vamshi asked the group – If historians and archaeologists are right and have no sinister or callous approach when determining Sumerian, Egyptian, Greek, Celtic, Inca culture etc, and these civilizations agree with them, why do you believe they have an ulterior motive or they are callous when it comes to IVC?
Also, I am assuming that your livelihood doesn’t depend on what you write about Vedic Culture or IVC and neither does mine. If you and I are doing so much analysis (I am going to ignore your Iam-a-lay-person comment), you honestly believe historians and archaeologists whose life and reputation depends on it (including Parpola, Steve Farmer, Iravatham et al) have gained the reputation they got without doing their homework. How can you and I criticize them without an iota of evidence? (sorry – interpreting texts and adding millenniums to them is not evidence)
A good friend of mine says – If we put our efforts and our heads together, we can truly understand IVC and show that it was the best culture that existed, par none, and be proud that we are all part of it – Yes, you have to grant that same right to people in Afghanistan and Pakistan as well. Instead, by trying to divide the efforts, we are only losing in the ultimate goal – we are making IVC look worse than what it was and there’s nothing to feel proud about.
Senthil,
I am glad you don’t accept the position Priya and I are taking. I’d be very disappointed if we have been having so much discussion if we were in agreement
Man, I didn’t realize all historians are racist. Oh, my god! Did you let Iravatham know. Unfortunately, Gift Sironmoney is dead, otherwise we can tell him too. Where did you find the racist comment that Parpola, Steve Farmer et al made. Please quote them.
I think you hit the nail on the head – ” concluded that the problem here with is accepting the sources”. I couldn’t have put it more succinctly myself. You say that “who have read about agamas, and in turn contribute some points from them, is completely ignored”. Really, Senthil. Please read Venkat’s post again. He says that Thirukural is talking about Agamas (1st interpretation without proof), hence agamas were there in thiruvalluvar time, hence it must have been in practice for 1000 years before that (2nd assumption that’s a little big to swallow without proof). Based on this, agamas were there in 1400s, hence Vedas should be there before 1700. Hence, they were before IVC and hence we should talk about IVC in any other context. If you think that’s scientific and we should adopt this approach, you might have to use the torture techniques on us
You’d like for us to accept this theory because… (please complete this sentence by providing references)
You say “i am forced to accept what those commitee decide, and not from my own analysis or from my own understanding” – No, India is still democratic. You are allowed to have your own opinion. It’s only a problem if you want others to share in your opinion – they might start asking for proof. I am sure you have lots of it. Please neatly arrange them and publish them in a book. See how many of them buy it. That will give you a clue.
I read something very interesting in the “Economic Times” yesterday.
Nepalis, who worship Shakti (Mother Goddess) have a “Living Goddess” – usually a girl child. Well, the current one is about to retire – at the ripe age of 11. The retirement ceremony is this: They marry her off to a fruit dedicated to Lord Shiva. Then the search for her successor begins.
Wonder if there are any parallels to this. And why stop worshipping a girl, just when she’s about to attain puberty?
@ Priya
Current ‘Kumari’ – Living Godess of Nepal’s Newari tribe – would have lost her job, as she went to promote a documentary film in the US & since she wanted to meet Nepalis in the US. As per their tradition, till she attains puberty, Kumari is considered a Living Godess and returns to normal life only after attaining puberty, she is not supposed to leave Nepal, since she violated the COC, she was about to be laid off.
These kids are chosen only if they are from the Shakya clan – goldsmiths, she should be calm, and should have a good family background, she should have black eyes & hair, 40 teeth, blemishless skin, body to match banyan tree, tighs like deer, clear voice, small tongue and so on – all the 32 lachchins (characteristics),…. moreover her horoscope should match the King’s horoscope!!!!!
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/6264014.stm
PS: Please delete my previous comment, posted by mistake.
Rupika
There is a custom in Andhrapradesh, as Mathamma, a Living Godess again, but they can never lead a normal life as they are married to the Godess.
Rupika – Fascinating. Er, 40 teeth?? Biology doesn’t seem to be their forte.
Yeah, I heard that the current goddess almost got the pink slip recently
There was a movie with Revathi in it in the early 90s – where she was the living goddess & people wouldn’t let her get married at all. I heard that the movie was terrible, but the premise seems rooted in reality.
The “Mathamma” tradition seems to have spawned crass sexual exploitation of young women. I just checked it out – most of them are forced to be prostitutes. Not only are they the property of God, but powerful men in the locality think that makes her public property too. Boys are also pledged to Mathamma, but they have no obligation – they are not prohibited from marriage.
Interesting finds Priya and Rupika,
From the references, it seems like some sort of a proto-deva-dasi system. In other words, this custom may have led to the eventual devadasi system which clearly is a form of sexual exploitation of women.
Sukumar ….
I guess its really late to comment on this ..But I observed something when I went to temple last week.
The temple was Narasimhar Temple @ Namakal….The temple is very old…It could dated back atleast 1000 years …
Now there was Snake shrine which was seperate within the temple complex….where i cam across one stone which had the engravings of a snake….It looked as if the snakes were copulating (courtsy NGC and discovery)…and in between there was kids image ….not this can be intrepreted as Krishna and Kalinga Mardham ….where Kalingas wife pray to Krishna to stop the carnage ..but then y would snakes be interwined ..I am not sure….
Sukumar ….
I guess its really late to comment on this ..But I observed something when I went to temple last week.
The temple was Narasimhar Temple @ Namakal….The temple is very old…It could dated back atleast 1000 years …
Now there was Snake shrine which was seperate within the temple complex….where i came across one stone which had the engravings of a snake….It looked as if the snakes were copulating (courtsy NGC and discovery)…and in between there was kids image ….not this can be intrepreted as Krishna and Kalinga Mardham ….where Kalingas wife pray to Krishna to stop the carnage ..but then y would snakes be interwined ..I am not sure….
Karthik,
Do you have a picture of this stone engrave?
Karthik,
Bang on the money. Snakes copulating is the correct symbology. If you look up how snakes copulate, you will see that they intertwine themselves to copulate. This is why we see in most Mari Amman temples a few sculptures where we see 2 intertwined snakes copulating. This is another instance of how the IVC people observed the flora and fauna and represented them accurately in the seals.
Mari is the Mother Goddess of Fertility usually also found under a tree – Veppa Maram or Arasa Maram. Mari is also the Snake Goddess that we see in Minoa and elsewhere. Interestingly in Minoa, they have slightly different symbology with the goddess holding 2 snakes in her 2 hands. Maybe you can try to guess why they chose to do that?
BTW, i have never seen a child in between the 2 snakes. It does tie well with the fertility symbology. Like Sreedhar i am curious. Do you have a picture?
Sridhar/sukumar…
I was not able to take photo as i did not have camera…I will try to keep a watchful eye in any other older temple i visit and get hold of a snap ….I may go again to this temple in months time ..will try to take a snap then
Well, so what was the original name of Shiva ?
Somsuj,
Thanks for visiting. Shiva actually Sivan was the God of Love. I am yet to prove this formally but Sivan was also called Maran or Mara. The proto-trinity was Mara (Siva), Mari (Mother Goddess) and Kumaran (Muruga or Karthikeya).
Hope that helps.
Many thanks – would you be able to tell me where ou got the clues ?
I found your Blogs very stimulating and it’s a pity that I could not join when the lively discussion was going on.
Somsuj,
Thanks for your kind words. As i said i have not yet proved the connections formally. But here is my thought process:
1. Mother Goddess represented the Earth and is symbolized by trees. Even today, if you goto a Mari Amman Temple you can see the Sacred Fig Tree (Ficus Religiosa). You can see Indus Seals showing Ficus Religiosa as a holy symbol. The mother goddess I believe is Mari – means rain as well as change. Rain again is a fertility symbol.
2. Sivan – meaning the “red one” is the God of Love – later connected with Rudra – the Indo Aryan god of destruction. Buddhist canons talk about “the attack of the mara”. Buddha’s entire theory is built on eliminating “desire” which he says is the root of all evil. That desire is Mara. In my opinion, if Mara is just another god of love, it doesn’t make sense to take off on it. But then when Buddha was alive Northern India was not Aryanized. The Maran as the God of Love worship must have been around then. That is why he chose to attack that religion. He also attacked the Vedic Hinduism in his lectures.
4. It is a proto-dravidian tradition to have the male and female genders named similarly – Anna + Anni, Yama + Yami, Selvan + Selvi, Kumaran + Kumari etc. So if there is a Mari who is important goddess highly likely the male god is Maran.
5. Additionally Kumaran is the Uber Son God – Muruga. Kumaran can be derived as Kunju + Maran or Kutti + Maran = Kumaran. This Ku as a prefix to denote small is proto-dravidian one as well. Kumaran is being seen as a Sanskrit word incorrectly. It is a proto-dravidian loan word.
This is my derivation so far. Hope that helps. Please let me know if you have any opinion or ideas on this.
Thanks.
Completely new concept to me . . .
Sukumar,
One basic doubt: why is the uber son getting depicted in the proto trinity ? why not a daughter ? or both?
Thanks Somsuj.
Karthik, as i said in the body of the post – the sun, the earth, the moon are the trinity. The moon has been considered to be a son. Don’t know why it couldn’t be a daughter? I have one potential explanation – the way they calculated the equinoctial points and the eclipses led them to believe that that the earth was the giver of the energy to both the sun and the moon. Even today in Hindu mythology, we say the Woman symbolizes Shakti. In other words, without women, they felt that men have no energy – because it is only the woman that can procreate. If you go by that logic it makes sense that the trinity will be father, mother and son and not father, mother and daughter. Does that make sense?
Interesting Sukumar,
Good explanation,but going by that too if Shakti or energy is an embodiment of the female form then progeny should also be a female right?
Karthik,
Perhaps i didn’t explain correctly. Here is my hypothesis again – they first fixed the trinity to be the sun, earth and moon. Because their astronomical calculations indicated that it is the position of the earth that determined the equinoxes and solstices and the eclipses, they concluded that the earth is the energy giver or shakti and the sun and moon are recipients of the energy. That means that the sun and moon have to be males because they don’t have shakti. And from the brightness of the moon compared to the sun, they must have figured it is a smaller sun and they have given the male symbol to the sun which means the moon has to be a smaller male symbol not a female. If the moon is a female then their model of earth being the shakti won’t fit. They will have to reconcile two shakti givers in the trinity. Hope that helps.
I have the tendency to go overboard with theories based on fragmented pieces of information, so here goes. It is my view that Aryans, Persians & Mittani came frm the same breed in the Andronovo culture. They brought the chariots to the rest of the world. There is a religious connect between the three, Indra & Varuna were venerated by Aryans (as seen in Rig Veda), Wiki tells me Ahura Mazda could be based on Asura Varuna & then there is Mittani-Hittite agreement invoking Indra & Varuna. For reasons of their own they chose to settle separately in IVC, Iran & Iraq (Cud be religious again a theory Aryans were pro Deva, Persians were pro Asura while Mittani took the middle path). But, IVC already had an existing community and Aryans may not have had a smooth migration. The main deity of IVC was Siva and they were led by king who were strong Siva devotees (Cud be Ravana or Mahabali). They may have been overcome by followers of a minor God Vishnu, but for most part the two races may have co-existed peacefully.
Like I said, I do have a tendency to come up with odd theories. And thanks for linking Trinity with Sun, Moon & Earth. It had never occurred to me.
ciao
Arby,
Thanks for the comment. I agree with you on the Aryan origin. Please read my post
http://www.sastwingees.org/2008/03/01/the-real-history-of-india-part-7-chariots-horses-and-thunderbolts/
for more info.
Yes, IVC was a Siva/Sakthi/Murugan worshipping culture. Aryans amalgamated their religion with the IVC to create a new trinity Siva/Vishnu/Brahma (And if you read my post on Aryan Invasion Theory
http://www.sastwingees.org/2008/02/24/the-real-history-of-india-part-6-aryan-invasion-theory/
- you will see that Siva and Brahma are non-existent in the Vedas and Vishnu is a minor god).
Peaceful coexistence? Not sure if it was peaceful always. There were some violent skirmishes. But later it appears most of the IVC people had to take the lower parts of the society’s hierarchy with the Aryans taking the top tiers.
@Sukumar : I did read the other two links, though I had inferred the same earlier.
What I meant to convey was that the coexistence may not have been entirely peaceful. There may have been few skirmishes and it may have been during these that the relevance of Vishnu came up. Ravana (or Mahabali, though I am not sure if he was a Shiva worshipper) might have been IVC kings and could have been defeated by followers of Vishnu, thereby bringing Vishnu to the forefront.
But to a larger extend, the coexistence could have been peaceful, since the IVC deity was adopted by them. If Aryans were the stronger oppressers, then they could have very well continued on with their religions. Since it is not the case, I am assuming there was cooperation between the two. The social hierarchy may have evolved later on (For example, the bulk of the IVC could have migrated south, while few remained north and a social wall could have developed), but I consider the realignment of the religion to have been as a result of cooperation rather than war.
If the Aryans were the winners, they could have continued on without adopting IVC deities. We have the examples of Mittani (arguably) and the Arian Visigoths who continued on as rulers of people who had different faith. Again, it is just a theory that I won’t be able to support at this point.
Arby K – Here’s what I think. We should bear in mind that we don’t know when the amalgamation of the religions happened. The Aryans could have oppressed the IVC people, then over a period of time peace could have prevailed.
The Salwar Kameez is the preferred dress of the Indian woman now. A dress that was introduced by Muslim/Mughal invaders. The invasions were not really peaceful, were they? Likewise, the Muslim women wear sarees during special occasions. The Hindus & Muslims battled violently for many centuries, before an uneasy truce was called.
Most White Americans listen to Hip-Hop now & try to be cool like the African Americans. But, these 2 races have a very bitter history. Just because Justin Timberlake sings with Dr Dre, we can’t think the relationship between Blacks & Whites in America was relatively peaceful.
After a while, everything settles down. Then, people adopt practices that they like from other communities. That’s no indication of an amicable past.
@Priya : Granted. As I said, I was not saying my view had to be the correct one.
If it was the other way arnd, as in the period of peace (after maybe an initial skirmish) was earlier and the period of oppression later, by the time Mauryas and Asoka (or Bimbisara and Ajatashatru) came around the religion could have developed into a more stable form.
But maybe that much time is not needed, either. My knowledge of India history prior 350 BC is not that strong to make a comment on either possibility.