The Real History of India - Part 5: IVC Religion & the Proto-Trinity
Prolog:
When I started on this journey, i first looked at the Aryan Invasion Theory debates and had come across the Kurgan Hypothesis from Marija Gimbutas, a brilliant Anthropologist from Lithuania. As you know, i later switched strategies to look at the entire Neolithic plate and its mother goddess religion. Over the past few weeks, i have formed a hypothesis. When I was testing it, i again came across Gimbutas - and found that she had forecasted that the entire world was following the mother goddess culture. She added that the world was matristic initially and later changed to a patriarchal setup via the Kurgan Expansion. You can read her interview that throws some light on this.
This matristic-patriarchal aspect of Gimbutas’s theory was pilloried by critics and i think it also indirectly reduced the credibility of her Kurgan Hypothesis. I think that Gimbutas was right in guessing that the whole world was following the same religion in the Bronze Age. I agree with her on the broader principles, but i think she made some critical errors in assuming it was matristic.
At Priya Raju’s constant goading, i started reading Dan Brown’s Da Vinci Code. My hypothesis about the religion was formulated before i started reading this book. So any similarities you see are accidental and may serve to corroborate my hypothesis.
Astronomical Foundation - Solar with a Lunar Twist
Symbologically speaking, IVC denizens believed that the Sun, Earth and Moon were 3 equal parties in the functioning of the world as they knew it - the proto-trinity. Additionally, they also believed that the Earth was the one that was providing the energy to both the Sun and the Moon.
As i have mentioned before, these people had phenomenal powers of observation. They must have observed and calculated the day lengths and figured out that there are 4 equinoctial points - vernal and autumnal equinoxes, summer and winter solstices.
Next they partitioned the 360 degree sky into twelve 30 degree parts to arrive at the 12 zodiacs. Based on where the sun rises in the horizon, they assigned the sun rise to the various zodiacs throughout the year.
Next they looked at the moon and figured out that it revolves around the earth in a 27 day cycle (modern calculations put it at 27.3 days!). They assigned a star to each of the days of the moon there by giving rise to the 27 star system. From a symbology perspective, they thought that the Sun and the Moon were competing for their energy from the earth. When the winter solstice occurs (Uttarayana Punyakalam starts), they deemed it as victory for the Sun and this cycle lasts for 6 months till the summer solstice. At the summer solstice (Dakshninayana Punyakalam), the Moon is said to have won the contest and the Moon’s 6 month cycle continues till the next winter solstice.
The next piece of symbology is in the regular monthly cycle, the moon wins during the waxing phase and loses during the waning phase.
Therefore each day in the calendar was marked with the cycle (sun or moon), the zodiac, the month and the day marked by the phase of the moon and the star associated with it.
Tamils follow to this day the same calendar as outlined in their Panchank (Almanac). My research shows that Keralites, Bengalis, Punjabis also follow a similar calendar framework. [Citation Needed]
Flora & Fauna’s Impact
As we all know by now, Cows and Bulls were extremely important for the IVC people. The Bull symbol was assigned to the Sun - the Uber-Father God. The Cow symbol was assigned to the Earth - Uber Mother Goddess. It is not clear to me what symbol was assigned to the moon, but my guess is that they assigned a Goat (Ram). BTW, the Egyptians also equated cows with their mother goddess (Goddess Hathor).
Trees were very holy for them symbologically because, its roots connect it to the earth (mother goddess) and the top foliage connects it to the sky - and by extension, to the sun during the day & the moon during the night. Trees also bear fruits and seeds which indicate growth and fertility.
At this point, i recalled the Egyptian “Crown” Symbology - the type of crown the gods wear shows if they are from lower or upper Egypt. They controlled both parts if they wore both types of crowns.
Now when i looked at the 3-horned mother goddess, things fell into place. The 3rd horn in the middle is usually a branch of a tree & it signifies the Mother Goddess - Earth - Parvati. She was also known as Durga in Bengal. For some reason they also thought that the mother goddess was from a mountain. Ninhursag, the Sumerian Mother Goddess is supposed to be from a mountian as well.
Now when you go back and look at the peepul tree worship seal, you will see the 3-horned symbology with the middle horn shown as a branch of a tree.
Let us consider the Bull. It also has 2 horns, and we already know that the Lingam is a phallic symbol. If you now look at the 3-horned male god’s crown, you will notice that the middle horn is a phallic symbol and that represents the Father God - Sun - Shiva. In a later post, I’ll explain why I think this is a phallic symbol and why we worship it.
Now that we have established the premises for Mother, Father & the IVC Almanac, it must be now clear to you that the Uber Son is - the Moon. Also known as Murugan (Karthik in Bengal).
This Sun, Earth, Moon is the Proto-Trinity which is a concept that was later incorporated into Vedic Hinduism and Christianity as well [Father, Son and the Holy Spirit]. I’m not saying that IVC loaned the concept to Christianity. What I mean is, Christianity adopted a concept that was prevalent in Neolithic societies.
Let us review parallels from the reference cultures - Sumer started with a pantheistic religion and later moved to the Trinity - Utu (Sun), Ninhursag (Earth) and Sin (Moon). Egypt moved to the Theban Triad during later Middle Kingdom and the start of New Kingdom - Amun (Sun), Maat (Earth) & Khunsu (Moon).
I believe the Minoans had the same triad, but I couldn’t get the name of the Moon god - the male god was called Cernunnos and the female god was Potnia Theron (both are greekified names of Celtic and Minoan gods). Notice that Potnia is known as the Mistress of Animals. Please note that this concept is present in IVC also. In order to understand that symbology, i had to consult Desmond Morris’s brilliant work - “Animal Watching”. I will explain this in later posts.
Now going back to astronomy, they assigned the Bull Zodiac (”Taurus”) to the point at which the Sun rises during the Vernal Equinox. It also marked the New Year - the agricultural season. Pleaides are a part of Taurus. Due to precession, the vernal equinox now falls in March. But since the Tamils place a premium on “Taurus”, their new year still occurs on April 14.
Festival Framework
There are 4 major festivals coinciding with the 4 equinoctial points (new year coincided with the Vernal Equinox as explained above).
1. New Year - At Vernal Equinox, the agricultural season starts, the fields are ploughed and the seeds are sowed. Here is where their symbology of the Sacred Marriage enters. They analogized the start of a New Yearly cycle with the sexual union of the Sun and Earth.
So the festival celebrated sexual unions. Celts called it the “Beltane Festival” - sometimes also called Corn Prince/Princess Festival. There is evidence to show that real sexual unions took place to symbolize the holy union of the Gods. The Uruk Vase found in Sumer shows the “Akitu” festival; Egyptians celebrated the “Opet” Festival which i wrote about during my visit to Karnak. Minoans must have done it as well, as indicated in the Fresco of the Prince. This is celebrated as “Chithirai Thiruvizha” in South India - Where a sacred marriage takes place in madurai between Meenakshi (Parvathi) and Sundareswarar (Shiva). I guess over time the sexual union was converted to a wedding, which is more palatable to our prudery!
The festival of colors must have also happened duing this time with the associated drinking of the Bhang. I believe the IVC people had the Bhang as well. This will be covered later. Holi is today celebrated during the Vernal Equinox - which as we saw occurs in March due to precession. During the IVC days, it would have fallen in April alongside the new year. Even today, the sexual undertones of Holi can’t be missed.
2. Winter Solstice - this is the festival of Suriya Pongal, which marks the Victory of the Sun over the Moon. Bull leaping was done during this festival. As we saw previously, Minoans did the Bull Leaping too.
The above 2 are the only Tamil festivals i knew before i did this research.
3. Summer Solstice - this marks the start of the victory cycle of the moon, and there are festivals that celebrate this. Please delve into your backgrounds and see what your families celebrate during this time. I was able to predict the existence of this festival and I managed to find the Tamil festival celebrated around the Summer Solstice 
4. Autumnal Equinox - this marks the culmination of the victory of the moon, over the evil forces. Again, dig deep into your backgrounds to figure out which Indian festival would be an ideal candidate for this equinoctical celebration.
Let me give you another insight into the minds of these people. Right after the Winter Solstice (Pongal in the month of “Thai”) - “Thai Poosam” which marks the birth of Muruga under the “Poosam” star is celebrated. Star Poosam is the 6th star from Karthikai (the Krithika goddess) - this is to accommodate the 6 pleaides stars [Citation needed]. Interestingly, “Thai” is the 10th month from “Chithirai” when the Holy Sexual Union takes place - They even made sure the gestation period was taken into account!
The celts had smaller festivals during what are known as cross-quarter days or mid-equinoctial points. I have not come across any festivals in India that coincide with this. If you think otherwise, please let me know. Do remember that the equinoctial points mark the quarters of the year.
Epilog:
Gimbutas had correctly predicted that the mother goddess woship was common. As you can see, the Neolithic people actually went a few steps ahead of that to create a religion that was egalitarian - with male, female and child having equal dominance to create the world’s First Trinity. Since the Sumerians and even the later Babylonians followed a Lunar Calendar, i think the IVC people are the first to originate a complex solar calendar system with a lunar twist. Egyptians did use a Solar Calendar, but i don’t think they superimposed the star system on it.
Some more puzzles for you to crack:
1. Who is the snake goddess in Tamilnadu (may have local variants in each region, i think) and why do we worship the snake goddess?
2. What was the real original name of Siva? [Shiva is the Aryanized name of Siva]
3. How did the Vedic Trinity - Shiva, Brahma, Vishnu replace the IVC Trinity?
4. How was the Muruga Symbology constructed? I believe it indicates a balance of both feminine and masculine symbols.
5. What was the Indus script element that signifies the Sun and Moon halves of the year?
Sukumar,
A Lunar calendar will be much simpler to follow, for pastoral people that didn’t till the land. Even now, in the Vedic culture, every day is counted with respect to Shukla Paksham (ascent of the moon) or Krishna Paksham (descent of the moon).
Its interesting how even Christianity, a monotheistic religion, had to adopt the holy trinity - perhaps to ensure its survival & aceptance among the pagans.
Priya, you seem to be influenced by Da Vinci Code
Sukumar, I am still digesting your post. It is very powerful analysis.
Vamsi - Not really
Christianity is an Abrahamic religion. So, where did the concept of trinity come from?
And if you look at the other pagan symbols that it has adopted - Easter & eggs, Christmas tree etc, its clear that they had to imbibe several pagan customs/beliefs to survive.
Sukumar,
Great post. Let me guess about the festival in summer solstice. Is it Aadi Pooram? Since I was born in July that’s the only festival I remember as being celebrated in July which marks the beginning of summer solstice. Also Adi Pooram would signify “Parvathi”(goddess). My birth star is Aadi Pooram and my mother always used to tell me that it’s very auspicious for a girl to be born in this nakshatram.
Thanks to your post, past 2 hours am just hooked onto reading about winter and summer solstice and connecting them to the father-mother-child trinity.
As Vamsi pointed out, am still digesting the post.
I had a doubt, is Dakshinayana considered to be inauspicious in any sense?(since the sun is moving south).
And let me guess the festival for autumnal equinox. Is it Vijaya Dasami?
Sukumar for your questions 4 and 5 I was going through this site and found some clues:
http://murugan.org/research/valluvan2.htm
This feels like some treasure hunt. Am already waiting for your next post to know more details about IVC.
Sukumar…
And then..the hunt for solving puzzles starts.You gave me a whole 2 days of work with this interesting follow up post.As vamsi said, still need some time to digest this.Great work again.
Sukumar
Very detailed and well written post. It will take 2 or 3 reading to understand and I hope then I might be able to solve the puzzles :). I can take to puzzle number one since I’m from Nagercoil.
1. We worship snake god “Nagaraja”, not goddess in Nagercoil. One of the reason for worship is to protect all farmers from the snakes in the fields. One beauti of this temple is, Nagaraja is installed in ground where it was originally found and the sanctum is a simple thatched shed, with mud walls on top it Travancore kings build temple with kerala touch, and Jain style.
Thanks
Subba
This is something sukumar.Really detailed analysis..woof its is going to take a lot of time to answer these questions….
I can try answereing the Snake Question…
I guess the Snake Goddes worshiped in Mancamma..I have heard it Andhra…
The reason for worshiping snakes is that During the monsoons snakes came out of the holes and bit both cattle and humans like…so snakes were worshiped to minimise this….
Now Nagapanchami coincides with this …
Sukumar - Let me take a shot at the Snake God myth. Taking a leaf out of ancient Egyptians, “Resurrection” was important to the Neolithic people. Snakes shed their skin & re-grow it - this may have been seen as a symbol of rebirth.
Snakes are cold-blooded. In the land of the Celts, they would have hibernated in the winter months - and emerged again in Spring - along with the greenery. In the arid deserts in the Near East, they would have aestivated in the Summer months to emerge in cooler times - but the legend from the Celts took root to equate snakes with rebirth & fertility? Sorry, my imagination is running amok.
My dirty mind also tells me that a snake was perhaps worshipped as a phallic symbol.
LOL Priya ….
But you are right, Snake worpship has some phallic orgins …for one atleast in Tamil Nadu and the South Snakes Goddess is worshiped for fertilty …
Second over the period of time Snake as been associated with the ultimate Phalic representation (Shiva and his ornamenst and aslo the Lingams)
Informative post Sukumar.The solar and Lunar twists was brilliant. However I just could not follow the Flora & Fauna’s Impact section.
/*The 3rd horn in the middle is usually a branch of a tree & it signifies the Mother Goddess - Earth - Parvati. */ what are the other two horns for?
/* middle horn is a phallic symbol and that represents the Father God - Sun - Shiva.*/ How do you make this distiction between the middle horn of the male and female. Could you point to the seal.
/*must be now clear to you that the Uber Son is - the Moon */ I am being very dumb. This was not at all clear to me.
Would it be possible for you to elaborate on these
Another aspect which I don’t understand. Shiva is associated with Bull, but parvathi is never associated with the cow. You are right in that earth is associated with Cow, but none of our stories ever point to Shiva being married to the earth.
Priya - You are right about snakes being the symbols of ressuruction and fertility, even in Hindu mythology. They represent the potent and renewing quality of nature because they shed their old skins and grow new ones.
I dont know much about snake worship.. But, my grandma used to offer a hen to karuppusamy temple nearby whenever she confronted with a snake in her house or cowshed and the snake went away without harming anyone ..
As with every other rituals, anything that’s powerful than human, are used to be worshipped.. same for snakes.. its really terrifying situation when confronted with snakes.. because, since it moves zigzag & lengthy, we cannot trace its movement that much easy.. I faced big such snakes for around 3 times.. (as length as my height).. No wonder, snakes are worshipped ..
My present house owner described how she faced a cobra.. a cobra raising as high as her head (straight to straight facing with cobra’s eye
) .. This incident happened around 10 years before, but she still goes to nearest snake temple regularly, (as she somehow killed that snake, she might have feared revenge from the snake’s lover 
)
Regarding snakes as phallic symbol, i think, its not.. the symbol of snakes is used to represent chakras in kundalini yoga. Found the following blog with excellent details of 7 chakras , as represented in Ganesha temple.. here, the 7 chakras are represented by coiling of two snakes with each other.. i remember seeing such image as a additional statue in ganesha temple..
http://bharataagamas.blogspot.com/2008/01/symbolism-behind-worship-of-lord.html
Thanks Karthik. See, I knew it - the dirtier our mind, the closer we are to the truth
The lingam is already a phallic symbol. They added snakes also, in case we didn’t get the message
This is why I wonder - why pile 1 symbol after another?
And what about the Caduceus - the symbol of the medical world, of 2 entwined snakes on a rod? Originally, the symbol of healing was the Rod of Ascelpius - a single snake on a rod. Of course, the Greek pantheon was not neolithic. But, perhaps it took over some of the existing neolithic symbols from Greece?
I’m reminded of the “Snake Goddess” figurine in Crete, dating back to 1700 BC.
Senthil - Perhaps the snake is not a phallic symbol. But you can’t disprove my claim by looking at Vedic (Iron Age) symbology.
You need to quote relevant Bronze Age (Neolithic) examples to say why snakes can’t be phallic symbols.
@ Archana ..U have raised a valid point on Earth not being married to the Shiva…but i do remember one story of Mahabharta ..where Earth takes thr form of Cow and Dharma takes a bull form and Kali ( as in yuga) will flogginh the bull till he breaks its 3 legs.Now he will be about break 4th leg and cow will be crying when Parakshit arrives and is about kill the brahmin( Kali) when Kali reveals himself and asks for boon from Parashit on his places to stay…
Now the relevance here is Bhoodevi is generally married to Vishnu but in this case its a different version where she is seen in the company of Dharma…
So may be in some older versions she could have been associated to shiva (again this is my speculation)
Priya/Vamsi,
Thanks.
Priya,
you are right. Aryans being a pastoral people used a lunar calendar. It is the lunar calendar we actually follow today except for a few pockets where the IVC’s solar calendar with a lunar twist is being used.
You are right again with the christmas tree and other pagan concepts that were incorporated into Christianity. I had heard the christmas tree incorporation to christmas bit from you first a few years ago. But at that time, i had no idea that the IVC people followed the same Pagan religion.
One of the main reasons why Christianity was forced to incorporate pagan practices/ideas/symbols was due to the Celts who were fiercely protective of their culture. They were christianized only in the 5th cent A.D.
Saraswathi,
Thanks.
1. Adi Pooram is a good guess.
2. At first i didn’t want to use the dakshniayana, uttarayana lingo because that is a Aryan concept. I did that only so that people could understand the solstice concept better. Dakshinayana being inauspicious is a Aryan concept. In the Mahabharat, Bheeshma waits for the Uttarayana to start before he puts his life down so that he can die during an auspicious time.
3. Thanks for the link. I had not come across that one in my research. i will follow through when i find the time.
Subba,
Thanks. That is interesting about the Nagaraja, i had not heard of that. But remember here we are talking about a Snake Goddess and not Snake God. You need to dig up some more.
Karthik,
Thanks. I had not heard of the Andhra Snake Goddess. It will be great if you can produce some links/citations for that. It could be connected to the Snake Goddess.
Your observation on snakes is probably accurate. Just think some more about why they come out during monsoons? That will give you some interesting clues to chase down.
Priya/karthik,
you are right. Snake is a phallic symbol. As the series advances you will see why that is the case.
Archana,
Thanks. the 2 horns represent the 2 real horns that the cow has. the third one is the symbolic one. in the mother goddess’s case it is a branch of a tree - specifically peepul tree. Please go back and look at the women standing inside the tree, you can see the middle horn that she has, right?
The same concept holds good for the male as well. Just that in the male god’s case, the middle one is a phallic symbol (lingam) You can do the digging up on the seals yourself. Or you can wait for the series to unfold.
Remember at the start of the post i said - the trinity is sun, earth and moon - if the sun is the father and the earth is the mother, the moon is the child, right? Also see the symbology of muruga’s birth happening exactly 10 months after the sacred marriage of sun and the earth in chithirai maasam.
I will respond to the other ones after my conf calls in the next few hours.
Thanks Maheswari. I am glad you are enjoying it.
Archana/Senthil/Karthik,
This comment applies to all the other readers as well.
All of you need to cast away your Vedic glasses if you want to truly understand the IVC. As a one-time practicing Brahmin (i am now an Agnostic), i found it extremely hard to do as well. But unless you stop viewing everything through the lens of Vedic customs/rituals, you will not be able to piece this together.
I was able to do that only by taking myself out of the context of India and looking at the entire world. It is that perspective that allowed me to tie the Neolithic Plate together.
If you are not able to do that right away, that is okay. As the series advances, may be you will be able to do it.
If i can be of any additional help in this journey, i will be happy to provide that.
To give an example, Archana is talking about how the cow was never connected to parvathi - which may be the case in the Vedic documents. But IVC was not Vedic. Karthik is talking about Mahabharat, which is again a document from the Vedic age.
Please let me know if there are other questions?
Sukumar …
I did some research on the Snake Goddess..I thk Mancama has its orgin from Manasa….Vedic literature calls her sister of Vasuki and niece of Sesha..
But she predates that and i seen as the mother of snake ..She is also a draividian goddess …who go incorprated with Vedic Culture …
She is seen as ferltity goddess as well as protector against venom and poisons..I will try to provide some links soon,,,we can stilll see her being worshiped among some tribes like bhils as well bengalis and Assamese
Sukumar,
Brilliant! F…ing brilliant! I am traveling and missed your post this morning. I see that you have made several leaps and this time, it has provided the key to open several puzzles in my head.
I need some confirmation / criticism of my thoughts.
1. I think IVC considered Sun and Earth as equals (I’ll cover this more in the following steps). They must have wanted to compare the family (mother, father, child) to everything around them - sun+earth+moon, trunk+root+fruit, animals around them etc. The sun is the father, the earth the mother and the moon the child. Remember, moon is smaller in size. They must have thought that moon is created (I’ll come to why earth created moon theory in a minute)
2. I read parpola and wondered why he thought inverted ‘V’ was for goddess. He says that it’s inverse of a horn. I couldn’t buy that theory. On reading your post, it dawned on me. Taking the tree, root and fruit similarity, tree is always represented as a ‘V’ or a ‘U’ in IVC. If you look at the root system, it looks like an inverted “V” or “U”. That’s why earth goddess was represented with an inverted ‘V’. That’s why the 3rd of the 7th palisades is represented with an inverted V on top of her head.
3. This is a side note - In Tamil the other son of Siva and Parvathi is called Pillaiyar. Look at the name! I wonder if people where asking “Yaar Pillai”, as in who’s son or why this son as it doesn’t fit with sun, earth and god trinity, and that’s how he came to be known as Pillaiyar?
4. The 6 month sun and moon cycle is interesting. I am sure you’ve heard the tamil phrase “kaadu 6 maasam, naadu 6 maasam”. My family used it all the time to denote a male member not being there available for a while. I wonder if it comes from signifying sun-cycle (sun being compared to father). Sun movement (from earth) looks like it moves between the two solstices (6 months). I also wonder if that started matching with people going out of their villages to towns to work for 6 months and returning back or vice-versa.
5. I am sure you are making a leap in establishing the context for the symbols and indus script through the 12 zodiacs, 27 moon days etc trying to depict the day of the year in the symbol and script. It’s absolutely brilliant! I agree with you.
6. Here’s my leap of imagination. You might already be here. Moon’s waxing and waning cycle matches with a woman’s menstrual cycle. Mother goddess gives birth to muruga, earth gives birth to moon (in their mind). Moon cycle is 27 days. Menstrual cycle is similar. You’ll also see why Palisades next.
7. I was wondering why palisades was important. There were so many stars visible. Why those 7 stars? I couldn’t buy just the vernal equinox theory. Then your post today made me think. A woman’s menstrual cycle is similar to that of a moon’s cycle. 28 days. If earth is mother goddess, a woman ovulates around the 13-14 day, which is 7 days after the menstrual cycle is over (6 or 7 days of cycle - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Menstruation). That’s why I think the 7th star is Muruga to denote that if you conceive on the 13th/14th day, you’ll have a baby. That is also probably why Poosam is the star for Muruga, the first day of conception (and the 8th star in the lunar month). Also, in Tamil, a woman has 7 phases of growth (Pedai, pedumbai, mangai, madanthai, arivai, therivai, perilampen). This could be to signify different phases in her life as well as different days before ovulation. Imagine this - Rama’s birthday is on Punar Poosam (translation - prior to poosam). I wonder if it was done on purpose to put Rama ahead of Muruga.
8. I haven’t figured out why the 3rd lady from the left is the goddess earth (mirugaseesham). My theory is that she could be animal goddess as represented by the name “miruga sesham”.
9. Then I wondered, why associate bull, cow and goat to siva, parvathi and Muruga. Then I started digging deeper. Cows are the only animals that have a similar gestational period to that of humans. They are in gestation for 283 days (similar to humans) and that’s why bulls and cows are used to depict man and woman and no other animal. Check out http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gestation. I buy your Ram for Moon / Muruga theory also. As earth gave birth to moon, which looks smaller compared to sun and earth and looks different from them both.
10. I also have another theory on why Murugan is always on top of a Kundru. Kundru resembles a mother’s bosom and it could be to signify that a baby is always near mother’s bosom.
A few extraneous information -
a. There’s a phrase in tamil “murrikindu poran” meaning someone is angry/fighting and leaving. I wonder if Muruga has come to be associated with “kovam” in a similar way.
b. Equinox - Sun is right over earth. I was able to imagine the missionary position and hence the sun being the man and earth the woman.
Coming to your questions
1. Why do we worship snake goddess - Snake eats eggs (http://www.centralpets.com/animals/reptiles/snakes/snk2887.html). They live under the ground and eats mother goddess eggs. Using the menstruation reasoning above, this could be similar to women having mis-carriage and losing their eggs. Remember, we call lunar eclipse as a huge snake eating the moon (egg). So, to be fertile and to have a baby, you pray to snake goddess to help protect the eggs. I am sure that women losing uterine lining being similar to snake shedding it’s skin didn’t help either (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Menstruation)
2. Siva’s original name - You already told me this, so I won’t spoil the surprise for everyone. I was thinking further on this and thought siva is god of love like you said and he uses a flower arrow to woo the woman. Using the tree euphemism, you need the flower to bear the fruit. That’s why he carries a flower garland and that’s why he uses a flower arrow.
3. Vedic trinity - huge plagiarism - God of love(pro-creator), Mother goddess (protector - one with womb) and Muruga (son) translates to Vishnu (protector), Brahma being the creator and Siva portrayed as a destroyer. In one fell swoop, you can destroy the image of an entire civilization by making him the destroyer.
4. Muruga symbol - it is earth and sun copulating - the 2 circles in union to form muruga.
5. You got me on this one. Now, I’ve got to do more research.
Now, I see the symbols in a new light. Amazing! Thank you!
2. I was wondering for a while as to why earth is mother. When I read your post, my head was about to explode as it unlocked several pieces for me. Women have a 27/28 day menstrual cycle, which matches with the moon cycle. Hence, also, Muruga is moon.
Sukumar,
Another thought - You know the fruit of knowledge story between Muruga and Ganesha. I wonder if it is because, muruga is associated with Fruit (tree, earth, fruit) in IVC and to dis-credit that story and being prudish about Muruga being closer to bosom and this being a fertility civilization, the vedic people created the ganesha story and gave the fruit to Ganesha to signify he is the favored son and that’s why Muruga went to a kundru being angry.
Thanks Sukumar. Yes it is going to be hard.
Another fact that I find hard to digest is sun and the moon deriving their energy for the earth. From whatever little I know, it has always been the other way round. Earth deriving its energy from the sun. That is why he is considered a prathyaksha devata, god who is visible to us. Dakshinayanam is considered inauspicious because, sun, the giver of life and energy is moving away from us.
It would be interesting to know how people of southern hemisphere perceived Dakshinayanam.
Sukumar,
Interestingly, I went back to your post #4 and referred back to the stars and what they mean - http://www.findyourfate.com/indianastro/nakshatra-table.htm. Uthiradam which is the 21st star is knows as the “latter red one”, which seem to match with my theory.
NK - Brimming with ideas & enthusiasm as always, I see
Regarding the “Fruit of Knowledge” myth, I’ll do a separate post, tracing its origins.
@Sukumar -
Athi I guess ‘Siva’/’shivan’ is itself a dravidian name and this link is descriptive about that! Aryan name for Siva is RUDRA!!!
http://saxakali.com/southasia/dravidian_india.htm
Karthik,
Very interesting. It will be great if you can dig up some authoritative sources for that Snake Goddess in Andhra.
Rupika,
Good work. Yes, Rudra is the Vedic God that subsumed Siva of the IVC. Next thing to dig up is, how did they connect this to that?
Archana,
Thanks for agreeing with me. I will offer one small thumb rule for all of you. If you are thinking about this and a Sanskrit word or phrase comes to your mind, that is likely to be incorrect because Sanskrit was the Vedic Language. Another thumb rule to adopt is to check if the concept is present in the Rig Veda Samhita (not the brahmanas, aranyakas) . It is the most authentic document from the Vedic period. so if something is present in the RV samhita, you can be reasonably sure that it belongs to the 1500BC-1000 BC timeframe. All else cannot be dated accurately. For example, this pratyaksha devata thing you quote is likely to be a Vedic concept.
Here is why the IVC people thought that the Earth was the energy giver. Remember that the heliocentric model came in to the picture much much later. To assume that Sun and the Moon and the stars revolved around the earth is the most obvious inference to draw. This is why in Science observation alone is not enough. But observation definitely is a good starting point and the IVC people were masters at the art of observation.
Let us first look at the moon, scientifically speaking, it is the earth coming between the sun and the moon that causes the waxing and the waning. So from the IVC point of view, you can say the earth is either obstructing or giving energy to the moon.
Now look at the Sun. By observing the day lengths, they figured out that we receive varying amounts of energy from the Sun. Because they also figured out the equinoctial points, they also figured out that the solstices and equinoxes are a phenomenon caused by the earth. So it will be reasonable in their astronomical model to assume that the Earth was giving the energy to the Sun.
Next look at the sociological aspect. Mother is the one that gives birth to the child. The father is just an instrument. So it is the Mother that is all powerful.
Next look at the agriculture aspect. The field is ploughed, the seeds are sowed and the crops grow on mother earth. The act of ploughing and sowing seeds is the equivalent of the sexual union and the output is the crops that Mother Earth produces.
Again, the power is the Mother Earth. This is why Mother Goddess was so important to them.
Hope that clarifies your question?
Sridhar,
Thanks a lot. I love your additional interpretations. They are brilliant.
1. The cow’s gestation period being common with humans. This is too good. I need a citation.
2. not sure i agree with the menstruation cycle. but you could be right. In the paleolithic age, menstruation was a holy thing. Again, we need citations.
3. Thanks for concurring with me on the V, U symbol for women. I am almost done with the Da Vinci Code, and he says the woman symbol is a V. so i think this interpretation is correct.
4. The punar poosam for Rama coming ahead of poosam is a great catch. I hadn’t thought of that. Another thing that corroborates your view is that Rama Navami occurs right around the New Yeaar. This is the same way, Emperor Constantine, made Dec 25 as christmas to coincide with the Pagan winter solstice festivals.
4. The snake eating eggs and tying it to our eclipse beliefs is brilliant. I agree with you on that.
5. the 2 circles copulating for muruga is brilliant. i need to think some more. Parpola has also assigned muruga to the 2 intersecting circles.
5. Pillaiyar interpretation is very creative. I haven’t really paid that much attention to Ganesha. let me think some more.
6. Kadaaru Maasam, Naadu aaru Maasam is another creative interpretation. You could be right.
7. Kundru as Bosom is brilliant. I have been wondering why they associated mountain with mother goddess. I think you are on the money. In tamil Mulai is breast and Malai is Kundru - both are very close to each other - could have been homonyms. So i agree with you on this.
8. i didn’t understand your Uthiradam comment?
Overall, superb piece of detective work. well done.
Sukumar,
I had copied the wrong address for the Gestation citation. Here is the right one - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gestation
Granted, it doesn’t cover all mammals and we need a citation for it, but it seem to cover all common animals (domesticated ones)
Regarding Uthiradam, it means the red star - the 21st day in the moon cycle. Comparing it to a woman’s cycle, this is the day red spotting begins and goes until 28th day.
Sukumar,
Jackpot! Eureka! Please look below.
——————————————————–
Traditional sources agree that the menstrual cycle is linked to the cycle of the moon. These sources generally indicate that women menstruate at the time of the new moon, and ovulate at the full moon. Although scientific evidence for this has been weak, the problem may be that most women today live in urban environments where the moon is no longer a significant contributor to nocturnal light…
The word “menstruation” is etymologically related to moon. The terms “menstruation” and “menses” come from the Latin mensis (month), which in turn relates to the Greek mene (moon) and to the roots of the English words month and moon — reflecting the fact that the moon also takes close to 28 days to revolve around the Earth (actually 27.32 days). The synodical lunar month, the period between two new moons (or full moons), is 29.53 days long.
——————————————————————-
You can read the rest of it in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Menstrual_cycle
Now, whether or not this is scientifically provable that menstruation is related to the moon, it should be easy to understand that people thought the moon cycle is related to menstruation, hence the name.
See the same Wiki entry for fertile window. It’s 5 days prior and 1-2 days after ovulation (which makes 7 days). I was mis-reading the seals from left to right. If you read it from right to left (as it should be), the 5th palisades is the one who has the root (inverted U) on her head to indicate that that’s the day of ovulation. That’s why 7 is very important for IVC.
I validated that the same 7 is important in Sri Lanka today as well. Apparently, in SL, for marriage or for birth of a child (baby shower), 7 women have to go to the pregnant women’s house to wish her. Interesting, isn’t it.
Also, check out http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Culture_and_menstruation
Another thought!
Why Pongal Panai? Why should it boil over? Why a panai made out of earth (clay)? Why a Sugarcane when so many other crops exist?
My theory - Women were getting pregnant in spring and delivering around the same time crops were being harvested. Women were compared to mother earth. Do you see the similarities in women’s delivery and pongal panai? The pregnant woman’s tummy looks similar to a panai as well.
I think it is very very symbolic? Sugarcane - I think it is a representation of male phallic symbol again.
Thanks Sreedhar. The gestation period interpretation makes a lot of sense now.
As for Pongal, very interesting. i think you are right.
Sreedhar,
That is a great find on the connection to menstruation and the moon cycle. Very interesting. As i said before, Menstruation was a holy thing even during the Paleolithic age.
Sukumar
1. Please substantiate how you figured out Rigvedic Samhitas to be in the 1500-1900 BC period.
2. PT Srinivasa Iyengar ,( one of the earliest to state that the Sumerians had a lot in common with Tamils, and who even went to the extent that it was Tamils who walked the coastline into Sumeria) stated that the Indus Valley Civilization- (now popularly called Indus Saraswati Civilization), is having unmistakable stamps of the so called Aryan Civilizations. (http://books.google.com/books?id=ERq-OCn2cloC)
This debunks the ‘Aryans were village based’ theory.-any comments ?
3. Subsequent to point 1, here are some random comments
a. River Saraswati is mentioned some 60 times in Rigveda. This mythic river is now reality. Thar desert
was once irrigated by it. Mohanjadaro, harappa and nearly 2600 sites now form part of the Indus-
Saraswati civilisation . Evidence points that
around 3000 BC the river dried out.
How come
the RigVeda mention in 1500 BC about a lost river ?
b. When will you place the Bhagavad Gita in the timeline ? Srinivasa Iyengar, and now a host of
historians seem to agree that such a war took place.
c. We all know that the vedas were sruti only till before the Mahabharata period. Then in all probability
the Indus Saraswati people did not need a language to write down the vedas. Whatever was written
must have been something else. Right ?
d. If, indeed, vedic period was 1500 - 1900 BC, when was Buddha born ? I have a small piercing
article that questions the very basis of Buddha’s timeline. I will share it somewhere in this thread. I
think some blogs have also come up on this.
4. Many historians have now given up both the invasion and out of India theory- except, of course, our marxists. It gives them a kick to say India was primitive.
5. have anyone, ever wondered how the Dixits of Chidambaram Temple settled in Tamilnadu ? It is, I think , another riddle in the puzzle. Thammanna Chettiar, a reputed scholar on Saiva Siddhanta, writes that the Nataraja Vidya (the symbology of Nataraja,) came from IVC- now Indus Saraswati Civilization. I think, it must have been the Dixits who brought this secret here.
6. Similarly the horses and Chariots theories have bitten dust long back.look at the gosai site.
Venkat
Venkat,
thanks for stopping by.
1. How did i conclude that vedas are from 1500-1900 BC? I never used those dates. The popularly accepted dating for RV is 1500-1000 BC. I actually think the dates are slightly different but these dates are definitely acceptable.
2. I didn’t know about P.T. Srinivasa Iyengar’s work. It will be nice if you can provide a citation for these things that you say P.T. Srinivasa Iyengar said.
3. The reason we see RV talking about Saraswati in 1500 BC is because they are talking about Harahvati in Afghanistan. The fact that Ghaggar Hakra dried out is irrelevant.
4. How is the date of the Bhagavad Gita important?
5. Which are these historians that you speak of that have given up on Aryan Invasion and Out of India theories? Please give me citations and i will review them. BTW, I actually think that the IVC was more advanced than the Vedic civilization that amalgamated with the IVC. So i don’t understand your point on India being primitive?
6. What is the relevance of Dixits in Tamilnadu? There are several Brahmin communities in Tamilnadu who can all trace their lineage back somewhere to the Vedic age. So what is special about the Dixits except that they are at a popular temple? I would like a citation on this Thammanna Chettiar work. I will review it get back to you with my opinion.
7. Horses and Chariots theories have bitten the dust. Excellent. What are the citations for this?
Venkat,
“Now popularly called the Indus-Sarasvathi civilization”? No respected historian calls IVC by that name. Its an attempt by Hindutvadis to push their agenda - that the Vedic people were not nomads.
Let’s assume that the “Marxists” are trying to say that IVC is not Vedic. How does it make our ancestors primitive? Aren’t they saying that IVC was a great pre-vedic culture? As long as you feel pride in the IVC culture, what they say shouldn’t rankle you. Unless you want to believe that India = Vedas & any other idea that upsets this belief rankles you.
Sarswathi is the Ghaggar-Hakra river? Again, proposed by the same historians I see. Please tell me if you’ve read the Rig Veda. Sarsvathi is described as Naditama, a mighty, ferocious river. Ghaggar was a puny river fed by rainwater streams! Hakra dried up after Sutlej changed its course. But Sarasvathi is described as a greater river than Sutlej & Beas. If Ghaggar-Hakra needed Sutlej’s waters to look respectable, it just odesn’t measure up!
Please read Asko Parpola or Iravatham Mahadevan if you think Romila Thapar is a “Marxist”. They are the world’s most reputed Indologists.
I’m yet to understand why you dragged Buddha into this! His dates are well documented.
Priya & Sukumar
All the links that I had provided had somehow did not show up on publication. Again they are here
\
1. Saraswati river Civilization- http://micheldanino.voiceofdharma.com/indus.html. Michel Danino lives in Coimbatore and definitely not a Hindutva vadi. He is a disciple of Aurobindo.
2. P T Srinivasa Iyengar was a historian of 1920s . He was one of those proponents of the independent Tamil Civilization. The link is here http://books.google.com/books?id=ERq-OCn2cloC
3. I mentioned Bhagavad Gita specifically because . 1. Bhagavad Gita is predated by Upanishads by at least many millennia. 2. Upanishads are predated by Vedas . 3. Rigveda being the oldest, must be at least many millennia old. 4. By all certainties Gita Predated Buddha.
4. If you read Srinivasa Iyengar, you will see he agrees Mahabharata indeed took place.
5. To show the antiquity of the vedas this will help. In Vedic period, there were no temples. Temples were clearly post Mahabharata. mahabharata itself is a proof since there is not any mention of any temples. The temple based Hinduism is called Agamism. This fact is NOT known to many. Hinduism is a conglomorate of six religions faithful to the vedas. This is not also not known to many. What is the dating of the oldest temple in India ? Any guess ?
6. Saraswati is not Haggra . See Michel danino’s page.
7. I mentioned the dixits of Chidambaram to make a bell ring. I think you have not thought in that direction. These Dixits are a post Vedic , Agamist group, who are definitely of the hue of kashmir Pandits. You may know that Tamil and Kashmir Saiva sects share the same Agamas, honour saints mutually and are basically tantric. Kashmir Pundits are the leftover and migrated people of the original ISC- Indus Saraswati Civilization. These Dixits are said to be in Tamilnadu before Buddhist and Jainist influence- which means pre Christian Era. This will put another common perception in doubt. That the Indus valley was Dravidian. Dravidian society was post Vedic, and clearly Agamic . Agamism is a rigid caste based society while vedism was flexible.
if you were wondering how the Saiva Vaishna divide came into being, blame Agamism. The six religions had their own Agamas and each claimed its God was supreme. In Vedic society , this aspect is absent.
8. The article I talked about- another perspective about Indian History- here it is (rather long, but no other go)
Megasthenis and Indica
The earliest date which mentions about the Indian history is given in a book called ‘Indica’ written by Megasthenis. Megasthenis came from Greece to India during the reign of Alexander. Alexander’s invasion was during the period 322-327 BC. He mentions in his book that, during his visit, a king called ‘Sandracottus’ from a city called ‘Polibothra’ ruled India. Scholars have interpreted that this ‘Polibothra’ could be ‘Pataliputhra’ and this ‘Sandrakottus’ could be ‘ChandraGupta Mauriya’. Based on these facts, they have proved certain facts like the age of Buddha, the so-called ‘Aryan Invasion’ etc…But are these facts real? How could their authenticity be proved? This is the real question. If we try to check carefully the names of the kings given in our scriptures and the names given by Megasthanis, then we could come to a conclusion that the above said points about the British scholars are invalid.
Before checking these facts, another thing should be known. There were two ChandraGupthas in the Indian history. They are ChandraGuptha of the Mauriya Dynasty and ChandraGuptha of the Guptha Dynasty. The ChandraGuptha of the Mauriya Dynasty lived 1300 years prior to the ChandraGuptha of the Guptha Dynasty. This fact should be kept in mind before going to the next paragraph.
As I previously mentioned, when Megasthanis came to India, he says that a king called ‘Sandrakottus’ ruled the country. The British scholars and some Indian scholars too have interpreted that this ‘Sandrakottus’ was ChandraGuScottyptha Mauriya of the famous Mauriya dynasty. But, if we have a closer look, then we could establish the fact that this ChandraGuptha Mauriya is not the ‘Sandrakottus’ but it is ChandraGuptha of the Guptha Dynasty. The reasons are given below.
• The Greek book mentions about the kings who lived before and after Sandrakottus. The names given are Xandramas and Sandrocyptus. If we check the names with that of ChandraGuptha Mauriya whom the British Scholars say, the kings lived before and after ChandraGuptha Mauriya are: Mahapadma Nanda and Bindusar. Even if we look at these names, then we can very well see that the names given in the Greek book and the given names do not match phonetically. But, if we see the names of the kings before and after ChandraGuptha of the Guptha Dynasty, the kings are Chandramas and Samudragupta. Anyone can say that these two names phonetically match exactly with that of Xandramas and Sandrocyptus.
• Also, the Greek books remain silent about Chanakya and Asoka the Great (who is the grandson of ChandraGuptha Mauriya and whose empire is even bigger than ChandraGuptha Mauriya).
• The names of contemporary kings found on Ashokan inscriptions are Amtiyoka, Tulamaya, etc.. Amtiyoka ruled Afghanistan around 1475 BC, which then appears to be the approximate date of Ashoka (the grandson of Chandragupta Mauriya).
Therefore, from these above points, we could clearly see that the ‘Sandrakottus’ whom Megasthanis mentions is not Chandragupta Mauriya but it is Chandragupta Guptha who lived 1300 years after Chandragupta Mauriya.
The reason behind Scholars naming Chandragupta Mauriya as Sandrakottus could be that
Chandragupta Mauriya is the famous ruler and that Chandragupta Guptha was not very famous (most people don’t even know that such a ruler existed in the Guptha clan).
Also, When the British Scholars ‘made’ ChandraGuptha Mauriya as Sandracottus, they brought his period to 327 BC which was nearly 1300 years later. So, this caused the periods of many kings and famous personalities to be 1300-1500 years shorter than what they were originally.
So, it is very clearly evident that the fact of ChandraGuptha of the Guptha Dynasty is
Sandrakottus makes a giant leap of 1300 years in the Indian history. So, if we keep this in mind, we could derive the following periods:
Some Important Dates
Period
Names
3138-1634 BC Shishunaga and earlier dynasties
1887-1807 BC Gautama Buddha (AKA siddartha)
1864-1792 BC Mahaveer Jain
1634-1534 BC Nanda Dynasty
1534-1319 BC Mauriya Dynasty
1294 BC Kanishka of Kushan Dynasty
509- 477 BC Aadi Shankaracharya
327 BC Chandragupta Gupta
57 BC Vikramaditya Gupta
In the above table, ChandraGuptha Mauriya ruled during the last years of the Mauriyan Dynasty.
So, from all the above mentioned points, It becomes very clear and evident that The Indian history is 1300 years lacking which was due to the mistake made by the British scholars (either intentionally or unintentionally).
People may argue that the above list is completely wrong and misinterpreted. But, some facts like the birth of AdiSankara are clearly mentioned in the Sankara Vijayas which cleanly mention the year and month of the Birth of Sankara as 509 BC (2595 years after the birth of kaliyuga, which was born at 3104 BC). Also, the Bagavatha and other books give a detailed description about all the dynasties that came from the start of kaliyuga. So, this cannot be pushed aside as false.
Hence, these points clearly prove the very old heritage of the Indian culture, The Sanathana Dharma.
Finally, if we take all these points in to account, we can come to a conclusion that the vedic era is very very old which is above our imagination…
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
So, there exist details of our timeline within our Literature.
Also, Sukumar, Thammanna Chettiar is a Tamil writer. You have to buy his books. If you are in Tamilnadu, any decent book shop will have his books.
venkat
Venkat, with all due respect for Sir Aurobindo, ( I am a great admirer of Maharshi), is he not a big preacher of Hindutva? May not be of the type Sri Veer Savarkar but a different flavor?
Venkat,
Wow! I am glad to see that we are re-writing history. What inscription of Asoka talks about Amtiyoka and Tulamaya and how was the inference made that Asoka lived during the period 1475BC. I wish you had provided this scientific proof to our history writers. I am sure they’ll re-write it based on this theory.
You are aware of the concept of finding out age of metals and stone based on proven and accepted scientific approaches. You only lose your own credibility if your arguments have no basis of proof (other than interpretation by someone providing their opinion on Indica)
I read Srinivasa Iyengar notes, articles and letters earlier as part of my research on IVC. I have a good opinion on the man and I think most of his ideas are good, even if some are clouded in mis-judgement. Based on your notes, I quickly re-read the book as well. I think he has some very good points about IVC being Dravidian. Can you provide page references on where he says IVC is aryan? I couldn’t find that in the book. Yes, he has talked about Aryans in the book that you referenced, but it was not in relation to the IVC culture, unless I am completely missing it.
Before reading Parpola, I thought that the IVC script has to be alphabetic and was trying to interpret it that way. If I had written a book then, I’d have so many examples of why IVC script is alphabetic, but none worth the paper that it is written on. When I read Parpola, I changed my opinion as he had proven scientifically that IVC script can’t be alphabetic. I’d suggest that you do the same.
If you have an ax to grind, you’d never be able to see others point of view. If you have analyzed the indus script and the seals and you have proof that it resembles vedic culture, please provide examples and proof points. We can have an argument then. Without any burden of proof, if you want to just assert your opinion as facts, it only makes you look less credible. I am sure that’s not your goal.
Venkat,
Also went through the article you are quoting michael Danino. You are mentioning in your bullet #6 that he has proven that Saraswathi is not Haggra. Where did you see that in the article. Can you please quote the reference and underline it for my small and cynical brain. All due respect to Michael Danino, he is quoting Rajaram Jha as the expert on IVC. That pretty much did it for me.
I am sure you have read the article by Steve Farmer and Michael Witzel debunking Rajaram’s theory. If not, here it is
http://indology.wordpress.com/horseplay-in-harappa-the-indus-valley-decipherment-hoax/
Jha theories are not even accepted by right-wing scholars and you’re quoting him as the authority on IVC. BTW, I don’t agree with Steve Farmer opinion on IVC that it was a non-literature culture based on our inability to interpret the seals.
If your proof for having no hindutva ax to grind is Michael Danino, I am afraid that it fails the test based on your own article references.
Venkat,
1. I loved Vamsi’s response to your quoting Sri Aurobindo. With all due respects to the Spiritual Powers of that great man, when was he a historian? You won’t consult a philosopher for cardio-vascular diseases, would you? Then, why in the blazes would you refer to a philosopher for Ancient History?
2. I think NK Sridhar has beaten your point on Srinivasa Iyengar to a pulp. So, I won’t belabor this point.
3. Is there any basis - other than your faith - for believing that Gita should be “several millenia” older than the upanishads? Historians have dated the Rig Veda to be around 1000 BC - which is 3 Millenia old. How are you “certain that Gita predated the Buddha”? Please provide us proofs. Gut-feel isn’t enough.
4. If you read any of the historians we’ve recommended, they also think there will be some grains of truth behind plenty of chaff in the Mahabharata epic. So, what’s your point? How is that relevant to the post?
5. Sukumar’s post is about the “Indus Valley Civilization”. Its not about Agamism or temples. Could you care to explain the relevance of this point?
6. All the people who say that Sarasvathi is a dry bed in Rajasthan go on to say that Ghaggar-Hakra is Sarasvathi. You might be interested in knowing that Sarasvathi has been traced to a mighty river in Afghanistan. Please note that Kandahar was a region that Vedic people lived in. So, it seems probable. Shouldn’t you be glad that a sacred river has been identified & it hasn’t dried up? We are so excited about it.
7. Any proof for this point that Dravidians are post-Vedic? Other than your desire to revise history? What’s the connection of Dixits to the Indus Valley Civilization? Can you date them to 2500 BC? Buddhism & Jainism are from the 6th/7th century BC! We are not interested in “blaming” anyone for the 6 sects. We are merely interested academically in what happened. Religious texts have some historical facts in them - but you need to separate the wheat from the chaff, instead of getting overtly attached to your beliefs.
8. I fail to see the connection of “Indica” to a civilization that existed 2000 years before the arrival of Megasthenes. Really, you need to learn to post relevant points as comments. You can’t kill us by a deluge of data.
Sridhar
You said
+++ Wow! I am glad to see that we are re-writing history++++
Yes ! We have to. I am not the author of the article. But the contents are sgarp enough to make any one sit up and take notice. Well, I would have loved it if you went into details of the successive dynasties for the benefit of everyone.
You also said +++++All due respect to Michael Danino, he is quoting Rajaram Jha as the expert on IVC. That pretty much did it for me++++++
So, you have admitted one of the worst kept secrets of ‘writing’ Indian history. That ‘only the name matters’. Not the content. As a history student yourself, tell me where in the world such a thing is practiced ? Packs of so called historians, with no knowledge in Sanskrit, could make declaration with impunity about Indian history. One simple example. If you know the purusha sooktam, there is a sloka mentioning how the four varnas emanated from the purusha. The standard explanation available now with all the standard books is this ‘ the brahmins emerged from the head, the kshatriya from the arms, the vysya from the trunk, the sudra from the legs’. One of the historians, Majumdar, considers this as incorrect. He says the correct translation should be ” the brahmin became the head; the kshatriya its arms; the vysya its trunk and sudra its legs”
But, how many of our Thapars and Panickars know this ? I read somewhere that most present historians do not know that there are many shades of Sanskrit are there. Panini’s is one. Rigvedic Samhita sanskrit is the most ancient available. Bharatiar, in his intro to his Bhagavadgita commentary writes this.
Myself, as a layman am able to see the gaping holes in all the pampered theories. I am not a hindutva vadi. Simply a practicing Hindu.
You said+++++f you have analyzed the indus script and the seals and you have proof that it resembles vedic culture, please provide examples and proof points++++++++++++++
There is a site
http://www.gosai.com/chaitanya/saranagati/html/vedic-upanisads/aryan-invasion.html
You said +++++Can you provide page references on where he says IVC is aryan?+++++++++++
Go to page LVII of the intro section. He says ‘ where the impression of Aryan influence is NOT IMPERCEPTIBLE (emphasis mine)’ - but pray tell me, did you really grind my statement to pulp?
You also said about parpola. I saw in a list discussion where Parpola’s stand was criticised. That article by ‘Vedaprakash’ ( don’t climb on the dismissing stage again saying ‘no, no, he is saffron’) is not available off hand and I would try to get it.
To conclude, Sridhar, it is possible only in India that anyone can have a say about her history and this includes the right wing too. Pity, as a layman, I am completely fed up with the state of history writing as it exists today.
To date, I have seen the left historians go on a denial mode on everything ‘historic’.
Venkat
Venkat - So Thapar, Mahadevan & Parpola don’t know Sanskrit, but Majumdar does. Why should we disbelieve it, when we have your word for it?
Research has other basis, you know - its not based only on what the Rig Veda says. Bonafide research is based on pottery remains, linguistics, evidence from genetics, what other ancient people have to say about the culture under review, paintings - a lot of things in fact. Old languages are difficult & most people make some mistakes. That doesn’t mean every single thing they’ve said is incorrect. Its not all or nothing.
Rajaram/Jha are discredited because Rajaram doctored a seal. Of course we are going to ignore what he says, because he was a liar. Before you generalize what we do, please do yourself a favor & read about the “Indus Horse Hoax”.
You know, there’s a logical fallacy that I’m accusing you of. Poking holes in another theory doesn’t automatically prove your theory. You have to provide proof for your theory - that isn’t doctored by Hindutvadis - in terms that historians would accept.
What makes you think that only Indians have freedom of speech about their history?? There are many democratic countries, you know. This kind of baseless arguments only reduce your credibility.
You are fed up with the state of history writing. What a coincidence - We are too. We are fed up with what passes as “history” in this country. And the refusal to approach history objectively with a scientific temper.
Priya
Where did I touch your sensitivities that I see such force in your reply ?
You said+++++You won’t consult a philosopher for cardio-vascular diseases, would you? Then, why in the blazes would you refer to a philosopher for Ancient History?+++++++++
I mentioned Aurobindo because first , he had read the Vedas in their entirety. Second because, he HAD UNDERSTOOD THEM. When a discussion of the vedas comes up, shall we refer to the scholar or the librarian ?
Vamsi said +++++with all due respect for Sir Aurobindo, ( I am a great admirer of Maharshi), is he not a big preacher of Hindutva? May not be of the type Sri Veer Savarkar but a different flavor?+++++++++
Vamsi, Aurobindo was a spiritual giant. Not a religious one. If you are going to use the western religious terminology into Sanatana Dharmic discussions, you are bound to end in confusion. For example, in Christianity, the spirituality and religious are one and the same. In Hinduism , Sanatana Dharma , you are still spiritual even if you are an atheist. Kapila of Sankhya school is one example, Patanjali is another. Yet they are great Yogis whose work many Hindus read.
Priya said++++Sukumar’s post is about the “Indus Valley Civilization”. Its not about Agamism or temples. Could you care to explain the relevance of this point?++++++
There is !!. How can one accept a mathematician if he cannot recite at least the multiplication in correct order ? If one cannot understand what evolutions took place after the end of the Vedic period and what societal and religious changes took place, ONE CANNOT DREAM OF SOLVING the puzzle of Indian history. Whether one accepts or not, the present Hindu society is 99% Agamic. Below is my old blog when I tried to solve it for my own curious self.
http://bharataagamas.blogspot.com/2007/12/agamas-that-helped-shape-bharat.html
The Vedic civilization was yagnic. Agamic civilization was Temple based. In Indus Saraswathi, no temples have been unearthed so far. But many ‘yagnya vedis’ were found. Vedism had rituals for fire sacrifice and the later upanishads were created as a gist of the Aranyakas.
A little more about Agamism not found in my blog. Agamas are diluted, watered down versions of Vedas since they use maximum Vedic Mantras. Agamism arose to effectively curb Buddhist and jainist influences. Has any Historian dated the oldest temple ? Let me know. Vedism predates that temple very easily. As far as I know, besides P T Srinivasa Iyengar (page 112 of the book) no one has spoken of the agamas.
Without Agamas, Hindu society today is nothing. Saivam, Vaishnavam, Saktham , Ganapathyam, Souram and Koumaram are the six religions which evolved out of the Vedic community. They all have their own Agamas. The latter three have merged with the first three.
No historian has tried to find the timeline of the emergence of Agamas. Once such data is available, then only we can conclude the full picture.
Priya said+++++Really, you need to learn to post relevant points as comments. You can’t kill us by a deluge of data.++++++
I have tried to post most relevant ones. But I couldn’t help ‘killing’ since it was needed to put the perspective right. As Sridhar said, we are rewriting history.
Venkat
Venkat - That’s very nice. How did you conclude that Aurobindo had understood the Vedas in their essence? Could it be because you agree with his interpretation?
Have you read the other posts in this series by any chance? It is illogical to state that what happened in the agamic tradition (as in what happened many centuries later) dictates what happened in 2500 BC & in 1500 BC! BTW, you seem to be very fond of that theory. What do they say about “When you have a hammer, every problem is a nail”.
So according to you, we can’t interpret what’s happening in the 21st century - till we figure out what happens in the 40th century.
What is logical is to open our minds to what was happening in the rest of the world in 2500 BC & 1500 BC. The history of Sumeria, Egypt, Turkey etc.
India is not an isolated country. Its a fallacy to ignore that fact. Many people came in & settled in the fertile plains of the Ganges. And we have a richer culture because of all this. The same thing happened in almost all the countries - several waves of immigrants coming in. Why would India be any different? In fact, it would have attracted many nomadic people from arid Central Asia.
Oh, you haven’t killed anything. Irrelevant points won’t kill us. And a gentle reminder: We are not fighting a war. We are in the pursuit of truth. So, there are no “sides” & no “killing” - unless you want to prevent us from unearthing the truth. We are not rewriting history, but for the most part you seem to be referring to those that do.
It is a distinct possibility that errors have been made in this post. But what we’ll need to change our views is another point of view with some supporting evidence that is accepted by the historians. Or, another interpretation of the evidence available. As you can see in this BLOG, many people post their rendition of the available evidence.
Venkat - In all this, you know what makes me sad? Your desire to think of India as some hermetically sealed container.
When we went to Egypt, the locals thought I was an Arab. They were shocked to hear that I was an Indian. I’m an Iyer & I look very much like most South Indian brahmins. Most Egyptians have mixed ethnicity - light-skinned Arabic & dark-skinned Nubian. Similar to Indians. I’m not saying we are Arabic & Nubian - you get my point, right?
And it was not just my complexion. My features too, according to them. Isn’t it amazing how similar we are to other people in adjoining countries? Isn’t it wonderful that we share common points with people from neighboring regions?
And what creates this similarity, according to you? Historians take all this into consideration when they come up with their theories.
Sridhar
This is the content that I promised I would send. It was from another list, and the only way was to create a temporary blog.
http://iscdiscussions.blogspot.com/2008/02/indus-saraswati-civilization.html
The cntent is self explanatory.
Venkat
Interesting discussions.. probably, the discussion is getting more interesting..
Priya.. i think, we are deviating from the core topic.. IVC.. or ISC, as said by Venkat..
In that context, the following points are to be cleared.
1. How come the dating of IVC (ISC) are arrived? If we get cleared on this, then many other differences would be solved.
2. Venkat has constructed series of historic dates from Ancient text, both indian and greek.. Why not it be considered for analysis?
The following article is on the similar line..
http://www.boloji.com/history/030.htm
The author has reconstructed the ‘Royal Chronology of India’ with over 325 generations.. The excel sheet can be downloaded at the following URL.
http://www.newdharma.org/royal_chron.htm
I feel, the above data can be of great use to our discussions, as it also describes relevant data on other civilizations like egypt, sumerian etc. If you have any problem with these datas, please counter it with appropriate points.. simply blaming him to be hindutvavaadi is not suffice..
3. Regarding IVC dates, the following site (the alleged hindutvvaadi site
) has given some dates.. Any contradiction to that?
http://www.hindunet.org/hindu_history/sarasvati/html/civilizationdates.htm
4. And
the book explaining why IVC is ISC..
http://books.google.com/books?id=sEX11ZyjLpYC&pg=PA79&lpg=PA79&dq=saraswati+civilization+barc&source=web&ots=8_2kvAwoaC&sig=8nW6oIImhTDdETRhaN1Tkyy57j8
5. The following link by kalyanaraman also gives some sceintific evidence, on rediscovery of saraswati river, which seems to have originated from himalayas..
http://www.eshiusa.org/Articles/Saraswati%20in%20Hindu%20Civilizational%20History%20and%20Culture.pdf
6. Priya.. your question on how do you know aurobindo understand vedas, doesnt seem to be logical.. if the same question be asked against your references, there will be no end..
I think, the comments will be relevant, if we could focus on the above points.. As per the links given by me, around 80% of the sties are b/w indus and ganges.. Recent study by BARC also helps in dating the mythical river.. So the dried up saraswathi river originates from Himalayas and flown through rajasthan, whose traces were found in Nasa images..
More data in the following link..
http://www.stephen-knapp.com/recent_research_on_the_sarasvati_river.htm
If you are going to outrightly reject all these links, then i cant help.. if you disagree, please explain, where and why, from the above references..
Priya
When you talk of Historians and what is acceptable to them, we have seen a virtual war for over a hundred years on what is truth.
And you talked about about the truth: Well, can you define a truth in an acceptable manner to all ? There are many shades to truth, the lowermost to the topmost. Yes, truth can be relative too. Swamy Vivekananda, (is he too abjectionable ?) said, ‘man does not travel from falsehood to truth. He travels from truth to truth. From a lower truth to a higher truth’.
You said we are not fighting a war. Definitely I am not. I belong to an oppressed religion that has been gasping and fighting for survival for the past thousand years. Her history has been so distorted and defaced that even a good intentioned follower is left wondering what , for God’s sake, has happened.
you arote+++++And what creates this similarity, according to you? Historians take all this into consideration when they come up with their theories.+++++
Do they ? When they cannot find the obvious similarities between the southerners and Northeners in Bharat , which everyone pointed out , what kind of ‘theories’ do you expect will come out of their stable ?
Regarding the similarity, Just a thought. All the while, as a brahmin myself , I was left wondering how could I ever convince people the oneness of culture. But, the die had been cast in such an awkward moment, that before explanation, myself and a host of others like me, were reduced to such a state that the onus of answering questions like ‘ you were aryans, you suppressed us, you created caste etc.’But the real moment of explanation has never come.
If I had posted anything , accord