The Real History of India - Part 6: Aryan Invasion Theory
Prolog:
Now that we have established the religion that was followed in the IVC, we will take a look at the Aryan Invasion Theory debate. The words “Aryan Invasion” seem to suggest that there was a sudden death for the Dravidians, the words “Aryan Infusion” seem to suggest a benign and gentle influence, the words “Indigenous Aryans” seem to suggest that the IVC was Aryan and they were always indigenous. I believe none of this to be true. We will see why, shortly. I would like to use the term “Aryanization”. It is the only one that explains the modern day Hinduism, which is a clever amalgamation of the Dravidian religion, Jainism and Buddhism, created using a combination of violent incursions/violence, proselytizations, influence and other techniques as appropriate . As a note of caution, the terms Aryans and Dravidians are being used in the historical context. At present, the Indians of India, excluding some racially pure tribals and the people of the North East, are a mix of both the Aryan and Dravidian peoples as well as other peoples like Scythians, Huns, Moghuls, Europeans and others, who had made India their home during the course of history.
The Principle of Concordance
When you want to analyze a book, a linguistic technique called Concordance is very helpful. The Concordance of a book is nothing but a compilation of the frequently used words within the book and their associated frequencies.
For example, take a look at the Concordance for Dan Brown’s Da Vinci Code .You will notice that the top most frequently used words (occurrences) are Langdon (1516), Sophie (1103), Teabing (594) and Fache (397) - the most important names in the book. If you look further you will notice that Grail (286), Church (234), Silas (266), Grandfather(222), Collet(176) and Keystone(160) round out the Top 10. If you have read the book, you will know how beautifully the concordance captures the most important elements of the story.
Rig Vedic Concordance
I decided to apply the same principle to the Rig Veda (RV), the holiest of holy Vedic texts. Fortunately, I found the Concordance for the Rig Veda . It uses Griffith’s translation of the Rig Veda Samhita as its base. Griffith’s translation of the RV has come under attack. Since i am only using the concordances of the RV, his supposed translation errors will not affect it. Of course, if someone has the time and has access to a better Concordance Set, we can compare notes and make sure we are on the right track.
Then i went through the RV concordance and noted down the base set of concordances - important words and their frequencies in descending order. Then I derived some concordances by adding concordances of related terms together. For example, i added the frequency for Steeds and Horses together to get the concordance for Steeds. The resultant file is a pdf- Rig Veda Concordance .
The Top 10, in descending order of concordances are - Indra(2819), Agni(1921), Soma(1525), Prithvi(799), Chariot(775), Horses(761), Maruts(714), Asvins(588), Varuna(574) and Mitra(416).
In the previous post, we analyzed the IVC Religion and from that we know that the Sun, the Moon and the Mother Goddess (Earth) were the key gods. In the RV, the Sun God has 397 occurrences, Moon+Moons have a combined concordance of 29 putting them both way down in the pecking order. Siva is not to be found at all. Yeah, Rudra was mapped to Siva later, but Rudra/Rudras combo concordance is 151 again way down the hierarchy of Gods. Visnu with 107 is ranked even lower than Rudra. As for Brahma, it wasn’t mentioned at all. Someone has interpreted Precem to be Brahma and assuming we accept that interpretation, the keyword Precem has the glorious concordance of 2!
Therefore, Siva (after mapping to Rudra), Vishnu & Brahma, the Vedic trinity that we now worship, was not at all important to the RV. That means they were made important later to amalgamate with the IVC’s Proto-Trinity. We also know that cows and bulls were very important to the IVC people, whereas the RV concordance shows that the Horses and Chariots were more important. Both horses and chariots are conspicously absent from the IVC.
Indra Destroys Dravidian Puras
The RV talks of Indra destroying Puras of the Dasyus (RV term for Dravidians). Western historians committed a critical error by assuming that this term meant the IVC’s beautiful cities. It is an error because the evidence from the IVC city excavations show no evidence of any destruction. So what did Indra destroy, then? I think Puram/Pura is referring to the clay brick village settlements, the people, outside the IVC’s cities, lived in. If you remember the interpretation for Meluhha=Melagam, i had mentioned that Agam also meant inside. Puram in Tamil is the opposite of Agam, which means outside. You can think of melagam as the inner city and the puram as the outer suburbs. Even in today’s modern world, we use the same terminology - inner city and outer suburbs. These destructions, that the RV refers to, must have been the Violent Incursions that the Aryans used. There are also multiple references in the RV to Dasas who were collaborating with the Aryans and adopting their systems [Citation: Romila Thapar's Early India]. Therefore, the Aryans must have used a combination of military power, influencing some powerful Dravidian chiefs with their new religion, to Aryanize the IVC people.
Why RV couldn’t be about a riverine civilization like the IVC?
1. In a riverine agriculture-based civilization, the river would have great significance, as we have seen with Egypt, where even the calendar was fixed according to Nile floodings and the Deities were carried in a Nile Boat (barque) during processions. Whereas in the RV, concordance for Sarasvati is 73 (compare that to 2819 for Indra) and Sindhu has 50.
2. Riverine people use boats extensively. We also know that the IVC people were seafarers. RV Concordance for Boats+Ships = 16. Very insignificant.
3. If the RV was written by/for agriculturists, you will find more mentions of Agricultural elements. That is not the case with the RV - Plough/Ploughs concordance = 4, sickle=2, sowing=2, till=12. Very insignificant. Interestingly, Visnu, the agricultural god ranks way below the other important gods. Compare Visnu=107 with Indra=2819 concordances.
Therefore, saying that the RV represents the IVC [or the Indus-Sarasvati Valley Civilization as the revisionist Hindutvavadis call the IVC] is delusional.
Outside India
At this point, I decided to look at the neighboring areas of the IVC. Thanks to Priya Raju, I became aware of the Avesta . Just going through the various sites referring to the Avesta and its similarities to RV blew my mind away. They had the same Soma/Haomo rituals, they had the same fire worship rituals etc. It is so similar that, today, linguists use Vedic Sanskrit to decipher the Gathan Avesta language! I have compiled the similarities between Avesta and Veda in this PDF with citations - Rig Veda and Avesta Comparison. The only inference you can draw from this is that the Avesta and RV were written by the same people.
But the reference to Daha/Dahyu (RV Dasa/Dasyu) in the Avesta bothered me. The Avestans never came to India and we know that the RV is referring to the IVC people as Dasas, then how come both are talking about the same enemies? I concluded that the Avestan/RV people when they were together must have encountered the same people as well whom they called Dasas/Dahas. When i started looking at the pre-Avestan cultures, i found the same Mother Goddess religion, thereby confirming my inference that the Dasas of RV/Dahas of Avesta were the Mother Goddess worshippers . That inference started my quest, which eventually led me to the point where i realized/proved that the entire Neolithic Plate, as I called it, was following the Mother Goddess Religion.
If that is the case, who are these Avestan/Vedic people? Horses and Chariots seem to be very important to them and of course Agni, Varuna, Soma etc.
Epilog:
1. Where are these horse/chariot people from? What is the big deal with horses/chariots?
2. What was happening in the rest of the Neolithic Plate when the Aryans came to the IVC?
3. What about genetic evidence? Is there any?
Sukumar, wonderful post ( I am glad that the frequency increased and suspense unraveling quite fast).
Can we use Concordance as a basis for defining entire flow of events in the past? Could the name - Rudra (which sounds difficult) be later renamed as Siva (which is much easier to pronounce)? We see this happening to many cities in India(Mumbai as Bombay, Chennapatanam as Madras, Musulipatanam as Machilipattanam when British could not pronounce easily?)
Your other reasons seem to be great. How come RV doesnt have any mention of river related stuff if it is a River Valley Civilization like that of Egyptian? Or could RV’s Subject be strictly spiritual without the inclusion of the materialistic issues like trade and day to day issues).
Very intresting stuff, Sukumar!
Thanks for putting this up.
Hopefully you will put up more of this in future.
Sukumar, Real History of India? You must realise there is no such thing as real history. You remember the fable which runs something like this. A king or whoever asked a few wise men to describe graphically what an elephant looks like after making an on the spot observation of what really a live elephant does look like. You know the rest:- each described the elephant from his/her angle of vision. Each was accurate within their finite and therefore restricted and limited angle of vision. But really what does an elephant look like? We don’t know and never will. Recognition & Identification? Yes, people the world over will recognise when they see an elephant (or a picture of it). Absolutely true. But does that address the real issue which is what does an elephant really look like, eternally, immutably and always accurately the same? I do not need to provide the answer which is always the same.
Forget the the Aryan invasion ( who cares whether infusion is preferable to invasion or that Concordance of Rig Veda (Griffiths’) is something to go by)?
History is “here and now”, what has happened just now and what is happening as we exist and visualise; but what we perceive or experience as it it happens and affects us is also falsifying at the ultimate analysis of things for future generations to see as real history. Remember the elephant fable.
So, there is no real history of India, or any other country, or man’s progress through time and space. It is all a falsification of what really happened at a given moment of time, because what we have unearthed to date and what we shall unearth in future will always be at variance with each other; the known; and the lost;and discovered again in an enlarged and more informed way; are but “footprints in the sands of time” which are all the time being obliterated, and replaced by new footprints ( we forget those countless happenings in the past or even in the present which is always past really, which were never recorded; never became footprints on the sands of time; and yet were equally true, palpable facts of history which, unknown to the world, did shape and influence the course of history.
Therefore history is now and here; it is no longer history when it passes the beaming focus of what happens now or never or always.
Sukumar,
Very interesting. The Avesta similarities is truly mind-blowing. I am not sure I agree with the Rudra - Siva comparison. In my mind, Rudra is not Siva. Please see Rudra’s description below.
———————-
Book 2 - Hymn 33.5 - May I with praise-songs win that Rudra’s favour who is adored with gifts and invocations.
Ne’er may the tawny God, fair-checked , and gracious, swifthearing, yield us to this evil purpose.
Book 2 - Hymn 33.8 - To him the strong, great, tawny, fair-complexioned , I utter forth a mighty hymn of praises
Book 1 - Hymn 43.5 - He shines in splendour like the Sun , refulgent as bright gold is he, The good, the best among the Gods
———————–
Siva is always considered as dark skinned. How did you equate Siva to Rudra?
Vamsi - If Rudra is difficult to pronounce, how come Indra is not difficult to pronounce. We still have Indra in existence! RV is spiritual for the most part. But if there’s herbs, cattles and animals covered, river is mentioning only in passing. In contrast, there’s an entire book (book 9) on how drinking “soma” keeps everyone’s eyes bright and they are able to “feel” better and healthy. If you can dedicate a book to Soma, I am sure you can write a few chapters on agriculture, unless it is not important for them.
NK - I don’t think Shiva is considered dark-skinned. Meenakshi, his consort, was a dark-skinned beauty - while Shiva had a radiant, light complexion & was said to be very handsome. This is in South India.
In fact, what amazed me about the description of Rudra in the Rig Veda was their ambivalence to him. He’s described in various ways & rather inconsistently. They sort of were afraid of him - since he was the equivalent of Poseidon/Neptune.
Ashok,
Do I sense a teensy whiff of a patronizing attitude in your comment? All this pontificating about how we need to “realize” something & your kind advise for us to “remember the elephant fable”.
What we mean by “Real History” is this. There are many revisionists who are falsifying history by doctoring evidence. Instead, in this BLOG, we present what has been truly found so far.
>> Forget the the Aryan invasion ( who cares whether infusion is preferable to invasion or that Concordance of Rig Veda (Griffiths’)
>>is something to go by)?
Well Ashok, obviously we do care. Which is why we write such posts in our group BLOG. You are not interested in history, and you have the right to have your opinion & tastes. We won’t ask you “who cares about philosophy”, just because we aren’t interested.
And this BLOG is for people who are interested in learning more about the unknown, regardless of what field the unknown happens to be in.
For the record, an interest in science & history is not antithetical to an interest in philosophy.
Priya,
I stand corrected. You are right. If he is referred to as the sun, the father, then he must be bright.
I suggest a reading of these
http://jayasreesaranathan.blogspot.com/2008/02/aryan-invasion-western-myth.html
http://indiapost.com/article/communitypost/2090/
Jayashree - Before we click on a link & visit your BLOG, we’d like to know what the gist of your objections are. I’m assuming you are objecting, since your link is titled “Aryan Invasion Western Myth”.
So please tell us succintly what your views are.
I have quickly-click-the-link syndrome and happened to visit Ms. Jayashree’s blog. Few posts like “Darbhai - the antenna to pick up pithrus!” etc made me fall off my chair. Why do this blog attract such crowd?? Is it wrong to define the truths. Who cares if Lord Macaulay wanted to create clerical class who needs to support British Agenda. If his Lordship has to survive, he has to propose such things or else he would be in Kashi in the next voyage.
If (again I stress IF), there is enough evidence to accept Indo Saraswath civilization/ debunk AIT, I am sure Sukumar will not wait a second to state that in this fact. Unless such evidence is presented, I dont see any value in this rhetoic comments with links such as Ms Jayashrees.
Sukumar - Great Post. I really like our journey of IVC and Indian history. I believe in history and our brain work like Newton’s third law, that is, how far you can go backward in thought process, the same you can go forward. History is the only tool to experiment it. I would say Aryan infusion or invasion is good for us as a country, we got so many different cultures in mix and we are very diversified in all areas. But at the same time, we can’t forget our early inventors and cultural pioneers for our society, which is, clearly IVC. My personal opinion is RV, Ramayana, and Mahabharata all are overshadowed IVC culture and just destroyed its originality. We have to give far share of credit to early people, who know how to carve a thing as perspective view, traded with far west, architecturally built marvelous cities and buildings.
Who needs horse and chariots? Immigrates who want to conquer and explorer around the world to gain land as well as settle down for a better life. In this scenario, the way “immigrates” impose their language and try to “arynised” natives, there should be a forceful military power exists hence horses and chariots make more sense. If “immigrate” peacefully happened, then native’s language and culture should be preserved in same manner.
Here is some evidence
1. G.E. Dales from Berkeley University found lot of skeleton from Mohenjo Daro indicative of war.
2. Prof. Kennedy from Cornell University who is an anthropologist, studied the skeleton from Mohenjo Daro concluded that this is clearly a “massacre”.
Sukumar,
You have arrived at an interesting phase of Indian History - “Aryan Civilzation” or “Aryanization of India”. Based on what I know, I do have to believe that Indian Aryans were immigrants - perhaps from Persia, Afghanistan etc. who came in horses and either conquered or assimilated into the Harappan region.
is a site that could perhaps illustrate where the horse/chariot people came from. Please refer to the section under Kassites.
Regarding genetic evidence, I do have to believe that it has to exist - between Persians (Iran, Baluchistan NE74206, Account NETH
Sukumar,
You have arrived at an interesting phase of Indian History that I am most interested in - “Aryan Civilzation” or “Aryanization of India”. Based on what I know, I do have to believe that Indian Aryans were immigrants - perhaps from Persia, Afghanistan etc. who came in horses and either conquered or assimilated into the Harappan region.
is a site that could perhaps illustrate where the horse/chariot people came from. Please refer to the section under Kassites.
Regarding genetic evidence, I do have to believe that it has to exist - between Persians/Iranians and Indians. This even seems to indicate that the Pallavas had Iranian lnkage!!
Ganesh
Absolutely brillaint Sukumar. This must be the only post in the series that I understood completely. using concordances was brilliant. When you put it that way it looks irrefulatble.
The list of common words in the two texts were mind blowing. Great work. Waiting with lot of anticipation for the next post.
Vamsi - Agree with you on Jayashree’s links.
Do such people have a problem with the “Aryan” part or the “Invasion” part? Disagreeing with “Invasion” - doesn’t negate the fact that Central Asians entered India after the downfall of the IVC culture.
And I find that people opposed to AIT primarily attack Max Muller & co, whose theories were crude & have been abandoned by all reputed historians. That’s because that’s an easy straw-man to demolish.
This was an interesting read Sukumar! Well, my takeaway from this, truth be told, is the concept of concordance :-$
A great Intro TO AIT Sukumar …..
My take on this is as follows.
Post IVC apart from Agrarian Economy the military economy should be taken into account .Army gains prominence hence horses and chariots replace cow and bulls…now the next question will be if its army then y was not weapons being depicted …I am not sure of this ..
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Domestication_of_the_horse
But if we look at the History of Domestication ..Horses were first domesticated in Central Asian Steppes..So I guess if Horses found their entry into Indian civlization then it must be thro’ them….My arguments in favour of AIT is that …If all the successful hordes from Hun,Scythians,Mongols,Vandals etc succeeded in conquering various lands due to superior and sturdy horses..Infact till the advent of “Watt ‘ Machines cavalry has been the most effective Army weapon…Infact we can see the significance of
Horses thro’ the statues of various Kings…I mean kings have ridden animals like Camels,elephants ,donkeys /Asses etc but y is this special treatment for horses ?
Thanks Vamsi. The point about words you make in general applies to how loan words are created - usually a distorted form of a word from a foreign language. In the context of this series, we have seen how melagam became meluhha in Sumer and Mleccha in Sanskrit.
However, Rudra Siva tie-up is a deliberate one to amalgamate the IVC’s proto-trinity with the Vedic trinity.
You make a valid point that maybe the RV is only about spiritual stuff - it is possible, but then as NK pointed out, they decided to talk about so many things including one whole chapter on Soma. Clearly RV was intended to serve a broader purpose. If you look further into the Vedic corpus, you can see that the Yajur Veda is the one that focuses on rituals and Sama Veda is the one that focuses on ritualistic chants. So RV’s purpose can be seen as having to set the socio-religious context for the Vedic people. Both Yajur and Sama Vedas borrow the RV material extensively and then expand on it. The Brahmanas and Aranyakas which exist for each of the Vedas can be seen as the commentaries on the Vedas and the Upanishads as add-ons - even the prefix Upa means - add-on/adjunct.
Hope that clarifies?
Vijay, thanks for stopping by and for your kind words.
Ashok,
Thanks for stopping by and sharing your views. Priya has already given you a response that effectively conveys my position. Hope you will actually read my posts and give me valid critique so that we can all learn from it, instead of dismissing the entire field of History and Anthropology as an useless exercise. Of course, as Priya says, you have a right to your opinion.
Sreedhar/Priya,
You are both right in that if you read the description of Rudra in the Vedas and think about what Siva stood for in the IVC context, it is hard to tie them together. But the reality is the Vedic folks did succeed in tying both together. Even today my father chants the Rudram in honor of Siva. The way i think they did it is quite simple - it was a symological tie - Siva’s IVC symbol is a 3-horned crown with 2 bull horns and the central one being the phallic symbol. Now if you go and look Rudra’s weapon - it is a Trident - Greeks call Rudra - Poseidon. If you now look at the Trident with some imagination it is a perfect match with the 3-horned crown symbol of Siva. This is how they did “Athaanga Idhu” or “This is the same as that” and tied both together. This also meant that they had to make Siva the Destroyer when he was actually a God of Love for the IVC.
Priya,
Thanks for responding to Ashok.
Jayasree,
Thanks for stopping by. As a Indology researcher (still an amateur), we are well aware of the AIT debates and also which arguments of the AIT are valid and which ones are invalid. If you had chosen to read my post, you would have understood that. While I agree that Aryan Invasion per se may not be a valid description of what happened, i also believe and will prove to you that Aryans did come from outside the Indus Valley, if you choose to read with an open mind. Of course, you are welcome to poke holes in my hypotheses if you have valid data.
Priya, thanks for your response to Jayasree.
Vamsi/Priya, I agree this whole Darbha acting as Antennae for Pithrus post on Jayasree’s blog does throw one off.
Subba,
thanks. you are exactly right. We must understand the true nature of our history and give due credit to the appopriate people. This Hindutva view of things clouds our thinking by making everyone’s contribution to India as insignificant, except the Vedic people of course. And that too without understanding an iota about the IVC, the Gonds, the Islamists and Britisher’s true contribution. Yes, they all made blunders but it appears the Vedic people did take over the IVC people and Aryanized them using some methods eerily similar to what the British did. Will the VHP own up and issue an apology to the IVC people like the Australian Premier has done to the Aborigines recently?
As for massacres in Mohenjadaro, I need citations - exact page numbers, article links etc so that i can ascertain how accurate those points are?
Thanks Ganesh. Your link on Iranology is very interesting. I picked up a few pointers. As for Kassites, you need to do some more digging is all i will say at this point. You are absolutely right about the Pallavas - they are Iranians - Pahlavis - tamilized as Pallavas.
Archana,
thanks for your kind words. I know you have said you didn’t understand some of the other posts in this series. It will really be helpful if you tell me which pieces are difficult to understand, so that i can change my style.
Ravindran,
Thanks for your kind words. You say Concordance is the only take-away. Is it because the post runs counter to your ideas on Aryan Invasion?
Karthik,
That is brilliant man. That is exactly where i went next - looking at where in the world was the horse was first domesticated and started digging from there. I will cover this in the next post. Stay tuned.
Just my few cents.. we have words like Rudra thandavam.. that denotes fierceful dance of shiva.. how come, shiva who resides in burial ground be bright & handsome
.. i have some confusion with how priya meant the word handsome 
Some common questions on Aryan Invasion..
1. It was mentioned that Aryans came through chariots & horses.. but, some historians say, its impossible to travel by chariots in that mountaineous regions..
2. Arabia was most famous for horses.. there is probability that horses were tamed there..
3. Aryans came and invaded IVC people.. But where from? and how? Are they militarily strong or only war tribes.
4. When aryans could invade and impose their religion on IVC people, why there doest exist even a bit of evidence in their original home land.. the so claimed central asia.. as far as i know, there is not even a bit of evidences related to supposed Aryan religion in central asia, either in literature or in archeology..
I think, this is most important point, for which there is no effective answer..
5. There is no signs of war, at the IVC site.. for example, the vijayanagar empire today, has all signs of extreme destruction, even at the present rubbles.. But, it seems, there is no such evidences of invasion or destruction in IVC..
6. In my last comment in the earlier post in this series, i have given a link, which gives around 325 generations of royal lineage as excel file.. i am giving that link below..
http://www.newdharma.org/royal_chron.htm
When we could refer dravidian gods, avesta, egypt, sumerian, i could not understand, why we could not consider this as one of the material for inference.
7. I dont know even a bit about rig veda.. but many sites mention that saraswati river was mentioned in RV.. (i think around 60 times).. these sites also mentioned that the course of saraswati river is also referred in RV..
As such, we have also cultural evidence of Triveni Sangamam.. the two rivers existing now, while the third river dried up..
I think, this aspect is not discussed in this series..
/** And that too without understanding an iota about the IVC, the Gonds, the Islamists and Britisher’s true contribution. Yes, they all made blunders but it appears the Vedic people did take over the IVC people and Aryanized them using some methods eerily similar to what the British did. Will the VHP own up and issue an apology to the IVC people like the Australian Premier has done to the Aborigines recently?
**/
Sukumar.. i found your other arguments strong.. i am wondering, why you had the weakest points in the above comments..
since the above was something political & religious, and not related to this post, let me raise these in another forum..
But, i would like to raise a point..
Do you feel, the britishers, the marxists, and other western historians, are completely neutral, and fair?
I just wanted to quote Maxmuller..
In a letter to his wife in 1866, he wrote about his translation of the Rig-veda: “This edition of mine and the translation of the Veda, will hereafter tell to a great extent on the fate of India and on the growth of millions of souls in that country. It is the root of their religion and to show them what the root is, I feel sure, is the only way of uprooting all that has sprung from it during the last three thousand years.” (The Life and Letters of Right Honorable Friedrich Max Muller, Vol. I. p.346)
Any proofs disclaiming above are welcome..
Senthil - Rudra of the Vedic people was the God of destruction. He was akin to Poseidon & Neptune, as I mentioned in my comment to NK Sridhar. Rudra was an angry God who needed constant appeasement, who was feared by the Aryans.
Shiva of the IVC people was a fertility God. So, he was supposed to be radiantly handsome.
Sukumar: Nothing like the “post runs counter to your ideas on Aryan Invasion” I don’t hold too much ideas about things like Aryan Invasion and all that in the first place!
Just that I happened to know of this concept called Concordance for the first time and it appealed to me and probably stuck with me much more!!
Senthil,
Let me answer a couple of your questions.
>>6. In my last comment in the earlier post in this series, i have given a link, which gives around 325 generations of royal lineage as >>excel file.. i am giving that link below..
We are aware that each Purana gives a slightly different kind of royal lineage - generally, when a dynasty went into decline, further kings were not mentioned. I’m not sure how that’s relevant to the post, though it gives a rough timeline for reference. For the earliest rungs, there’s no historic evidence at all - I mean, people claimed to have originated from Mercury, Sun & the Moon. If there’s any gap in the post vis-a-vis the XLS file, please mention it.
>>When aryans could invade and impose their religion on IVC people, why there doest exist even a bit of evidence in their original >>home land.. the so claimed central asia.. as far as i know, there is not even a bit of evidences related to supposed Aryan religion >>in central asia, either in literature or in archeology..
>>I think, this is most important point, for which there is no effective answer..
Well, the Avesta clearly explains where the Indo-Europeans started from - Central Asia. There’s plenty of evidence of Indo-European occupation in the Andronovo region, where people started moving from. Surprisingly enough, the “Old Testament” mentions the move of the Indo-Europeans from their homeland in the “Myth of Nimrod”.
Since these people did not have a script, there’s no literary treatise from them! And they were not into temple building. Wherever these Aryans went, they took their religion with them - as can be seen in Turkey, Greece, Rome etc. Vedas & Avesta are definitely more sophisticated & are an Indo-Iranian invention.
/** Surprisingly enough, the “Old Testament” mentions the move of the Indo-Europeans from their homeland in the “Myth of Nimrod” **/
This is where the root of difference lies.. while the christian chronological references are used in support of AIT, Hindu chronology is completely ignored.. this is where, i feel, the root of the problem starts..
also, can you please give some citations of where avesta explains about indo europeans?
If they started from central asia, there should have atleast been some remains (both cultural & archealogical) of the aryans… Can the aryans, who are so strong enough to destroy IVC and impose their faith on them, would not have left enough evidences in their home land? Is there any cultural similarities of present central asian to the aryan religion?
For example, the present iranian people, although become islamic, have preserved, lot of zorastrianic cultures & rituals.. any such left overs in the present central asia?
While the IVC people were so advanced in civilizations, couldnt they have any means to protect themselves from enemies.. or wouldnt there be enough wars in those two thousand years of that civilization, for which no remains exist now.. (to my knowledge)..
Another drawback is that, having made RV people as the invading aryans, the argument went against its own.. ie, for example, the rig veda doenst mention anything about their roots.. Most of the sacred places mentioned in RV seems to be in Himalayas, and the sacred rivers only in current pakistan and india, with some areas covered in afghanistan too.. when the RV could consider triveni as holy, there should be atleast one references to any of central asian landmarks, if they had come from that place.. the absense of such thing, only increases the doubt over AIT..
I have often seen “reliance on scientific validity” .. ofcourse, science can be used to find truth.. but there are numerous occasions, where science is also used to mis-represent facts..
The best example, from my knowledge is the heavy use of pesticides, and herbicides in England and america.. they were scientifically validated and authorised by government as safe, but on application, most of the people suffered the side effects..
And we have the latest BUSH technique of using scientifically collected intelligence data, to attack Iraq…
So, my view is before we rely on scientific proofs, we should also consider the motive of those who are presenting..
Senthil - Please do us a favor & read the Rig Veda. I’m tired of teaching you what’s in there. Nimrod is mentioned as Yima in the Rig Veda. Will you openly accept your error now?
OMG. Haven’t I explained that Central Asia & the Middle East are strewn with historical evidence? The chariot being 1 of them - found in the Kazakh steppes. Sigh! And I mentioned that Avesta/Vedas are an Indo-Iranian invention. Zoroastrians are the Avestan people, Senthil. All other pagan religions were wiped out. Please try to understand what I say - its becoming tiresome, repeating the same points.
IVC was not a war-like culture - that was a great mistake that they made. And they died down over a period of time. I don’t think an invasion a la Max Muller took place.
Yes, the Rig Vedic people must have intentionally wiped out all references to Central Asia. The prevailing theory is this - India is very fertile & Central Asia very arid. They wanted to establish their right over the Gangetic plains. They could do this only by claiming to be natives. Please note that this is a theory.
If you look at the Metadata of the Vedas, its clear that some parts are missing. Several redactions happened in the Vedas. But who told you that the rivers & mountains are in India?? Most of the Rig Vedic rivers & mountains are in Afghanistan.
Now, why don’t you sweat this one out?
What happened to the IVC script? Why was nothing written down for 1000 years nearly, if IVC was Vedic?
When did Shiva, Vishnu & Brahma become gods? They are not in the Samhita!
Why is Sanskrit Indo-European, while Tamil is Dravidian? Or, do you think Linguists are in on this “conspiracy”?
Why did Soma suddenly become a mythical plant? When Rig Veda’s Samhita has 1 whole Mandala dedicated to it? Note that Haoma is still used by the Parsis! They get it from - Kerman, which is not in India.
Why did - and this is becoming a pattern - Sarasvathi suddenly become a mythical river? And it is not at all mythical for Parsis? Sarsvathi, Naditama, Mother of all rivers - “dried up”? Became “mythical”?
Why is there a Sarayu (Ramayan fame) in Afghanistan? And only a puny Sarju in UP?
How is it that horses were never found in IVC seals, except a computer-”enhanced” seal from Messrs Rajaram & Jha? Horses are so important to Aryans.
How is it that chariots were never used in IVC? Rathas are critical to the Aryans.
Here are my responses to your 7 points excepting point no. 6 which Priya has responded to aleady:
/**1. It was mentioned that Aryans came through chariots & horses.. but, some historians say, its impossible to travel by chariots in that mountaineous regions..
2. Arabia was most famous for horses.. there is probability that horses were tamed there..
3. Aryans came and invaded IVC people.. But where from? and how? Are they militarily strong or only war tribes.
4. When aryans could invade and impose their religion on IVC people, why there doest exist even a bit of evidence in their original home land.. the so claimed central asia.. as far as i know, there is not even a bit of evidences related to supposed Aryan religion in central asia, either in literature or in archeology..
I think, this is most important point, for which there is no effective answer..
5. There is no signs of war, at the IVC site.. for example, the vijayanagar empire today, has all signs of extreme destruction, even at the present rubbles.. But, it seems, there is no such evidences of invasion or destruction in IVC..
6. In my last comment in the earlier post in this series, i have given a link, which gives around 325 generations of royal lineage as excel file.. i am giving that link below..
http://www.newdharma.org/royal_chron.htm
When we could refer dravidian gods, avesta, egypt, sumerian, i could not understand, why we could not consider this as one of the material for inference.
7. I dont know even a bit about rig veda.. but many sites mention that saraswati river was mentioned in RV.. (i think around 60 times).. these sites also mentioned that the course of saraswati river is also referred in RV..
As such, we have also cultural evidence of Triveni Sangamam.. the two rivers existing now, while the third river dried up..
I think, this aspect is not discussed in this series..
**/
1. Who are these some historians. Khyber pass being the lowest and broadest would have been their likely route. [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khyber_Pass].
Aside from Chariots and Horses, the Aryans had another important innovation - a spoked wheel which makes the whole chariot much lighter and thereby swifter. The khyber pass is only 56 kilometers long and it is at a 1000m height. Even today camel caravans cross the Khyber. Additionally, go and read my first post. The gonds also came to India from elsewhere. Highly likely the IVC people also came from elsewhere, again the most likely route was the Khyber pass.
2. True but what date? The horses were first tamed in the Pontic Steppes in 4000 BC. read PK Karthik’s wikipedia link above.
3. Looks like you never read my post. I am saying it is a gradual Aryanization process which included violence as well.
4. There is no evidence according to whom? The same gods are there all the way to Greece.
5. It is true there is no sign of war at the IVC sites we have excavated. But if you have followed this series, you will know that Dravidians lived in neolithic clay brick villages throughout India participating in a trade network. Any destruction of a clay brick (sort of like mud brick) would be hard to detect archaelogically.
7. Again, did you read my post. I have even given the concordance of Sarasvati as 73. So you don’t have to think. it is right there in the post, if you choose to read it.
Overall, you keep repeating the same points without actually commenting on the subject matter of my post except for the title of my post.
I am responding to your 2nd comment. When did i say that the britishers, islamists etc were fair. I am just saying that we should acknowledge their contributions to India as well. If you say, you won’t give the benefit of doubt to them because they were invaders, in that case, you will have to deny any credit to the Vedic people because they came from elsewhere and inserted themselves on top of the Dravidians and subjugated them untill the islamists and britishers came and took over from them.
As for Max Mueller, have you heard the term “quoting out of context” - Max Mueller actually had great things to say. Even in this supposed quote of yours, he actually doesn’t say anything negative.
See the links below.
http://v-s-gopal.sulekha.com/blog/post/2007/12/max-muller-the-man-with-maximum-love-for-india.htm
http://aumsri.sulekha.com/blog/post/2007/08/independence-india-sharing-great-quotes-max-mueller.htm
Senthil,
Another thing. The simple supporting evidence for alleged invasion is the RV itself. Again if you have really read my post above, you will have seen how the RV talks about Puras of the Dasyus being destroyed. If you hold the RV to be an authentic Vedic document, you got to believe what it says.
/** Yes, the Rig Vedic people must have intentionally wiped out all references to Central Asia. The prevailing theory is this - India is very fertile & Central Asia very arid. They wanted to establish their right over the Gangetic plains. They could do this only by claiming to be natives. Please note that this is a theory.
**/
So, the people who came and destroyed IVC, had gone back to destroy all evidences, so that after 4000 years, people like senthilraja, can support them, to be part of IVC.. You have a great imagination priya..
For other points (ridicules
) in your comment, i will better give room for others to comment..
Senthil,
Aside from not reading the post before commenting, Looks like you need a lesson in how to read comments as well. Priya was talking about destroying evidences in the Rig Veda and not going back to Central Asia and destroying evidences there. If there is a joke of the millennium - your response to Priya’s comment above deserves that award.
Senthil - Ah, resorting to twsiting what I said? That doesn’t surprise me, you’ve consistently twisted what others say when you couldn’t digest the facts.
Now, care to accept your mistake? Or, better still - care to READ what others say? I mean, you don’t have something obstructing your vision, right? Generally, a huge bias obstructs vision. You might want to check it out.
Thanks sukumar.. i have read your posts, and as such, i need to analyse what you have said, as of now.. i asked these questions, because, these i read long back, and hence posted it here..
Regarding the links you quoted on maxmuller, i reserve my comments later. (after reading fully).. Interestingly, i came across the comments section in that link..
(sorry.. i just came across, with some counter points..)
http://v-s-gopal.sulekha.com/blog/post/2007/12/max-muller-the-man-with-maximum-love-for-india/comments.htm
Ok.. but, even in that link, max muller seems to have placed india, in greater position than that of greece & europe.. so, as of now, i could ascertain one thing.. probably, he might have been truly interested.. but, he might have succumbed to the british conspiracies, as he works under them..
I will again re-read all your series, and then will come back to comment..
Regarding britishers, one thing i am strong about.. Britain, US, and other european nations, are all selfish, and do what is good for them.. and this has been happening till now.. the railways, harbours, buildings etc are all constructed only to transfer (looted) goods to england.. and even during independence, they made sure, partition happened, and again some how made nehru (using his weakness
over mountbatten’s wife) to refer kashmir to UN, and playing politics till now.. and they made sure, only incapable leaders like Nehru creep in power, thus sidelining patels.. they do whatever possible, to keep us from raising..
Because, indians had extreme sense of gratitude, they successfully utilised this, to hide all their worst cruelties.. (through their proxies..) ..
The same for US.. they do everything to ensure their well being & supremacy.. the secretive fed bank, now controls the whole economy..
So, my question is that when they are doing things for their own self, what should we do? Because, we got the administrative buildings, railway networks, post offices from them, should we be ever sub-servient to them? Its really completely unfair, to compare britishers with IVC & RV..
Although, i do not have even amateur knowledge of Vedas, i have read translations of many of the mantras, and slogas.. the thoughts expressed there are noble, and most of the vedic slogas, wish towards universal well being.. Take for example, the gayatri mantra, the root of all mantras.. or the sandhya vandanam, that a brahmin daily recites.. Arent these vedic slogas, aspire for betterment to every lives in this world, not just humans.. how about shanthi mantram.. the one which i most like “sahnavavathu.. sahanav bhunakthu..” .. where both the teacher and student pray for enlightenment..
Even if RV people are supposed to come outside, can those people, who have given such noble thoughts, could have destroyed the IVC, or in your way, massacred the IVC people?
I could not even think of such acts, by those people who gave such noble thoughts.. as you often quote “Attitude determines one’s elevation”, for those people, who could elevate to such higher level in their thoughts, is it possible, to stooge to lowest level and massacre people..
This is where my instinct tells that AIT would be false..
I dont know, if the puranas, are part of Vedas.. If not, then RV invasion or RV destruction of IVC is not possible..
Let me desist from any conclusion now till i get more clarity on this..
Ok.. let me come to your point on equating britishers and RV.. when britishers left india, india was struck poverty,backwardness, darkness.. whereas, the RV people, made india enlightened in all aspects.. india had beautiful cities like Mathura, and a powerful lineage of empires and dynasties.. and a vast amount of wealth, till british conquest..
Am i making any sense here?
Priya & sukumar.. .. even if i accept your point, still my question remains unanswered.. is there any cultural remains in central asia, relating to aryan religion.. priya told all pagan religions are destroyed.. yes.. that’s true.. but, we have examples like Iran whose people still preserve zorastric rituals, even though all their temples has been destroyed.. or the mecca, whose kaaba rituals are adopted.. so, there should be atleast some evidences in the central asia, which may contain some aspects (bits & traces) of vedic religion? (atleast in documented history..)
Senthil,
1. I think Max Mueller did make several errors in interpreting the Vedas. But if you want to assign malicious intent to him, you need more than a misquoted statement taken out of context.
2. When did i advocate that we should be subservient to the British? Aside from learning to read posts and comments, make sure you are also awake when you read my posts and comments because it looks like you are dreaming.
3. Did i ever say that RV is full of bullshit? I merely proved beyond a reasonable doubt that the RV has nothing to do with the IVC.
4. If you want to understand what is truly glorious about RV, read the creation hymn - it will blow your mind away, atleast it did for me. Again nobody is questioning whether RV is a great document or not. Did i ever say that RV is bullshit? Again, looks like you are not awake and are dreaming. It may help to pinch yourself to know if you are awake or not.
5. What has noble thoughts got anything to do with destruction? Again, read my posts and you will understand that the Vedic people came from outside and subjugated the Dravidians. I never said they massacred the Dravidians. Again, you are off to dreaming. Pinch yourself again.
6. Puranas are not Vedas. Vedas are the ones that have been handed down relatively unmodified because there were several mnemonic rules to help memorize them. And since the Yajur and Sama vedas are a derivative of the RV, RV is the only authentic document we have. Puranas came much later.
7. Well, after the RV people came, the IVC people lost their script which could have eventually developed into an alphabetic script as elsewhere. But thanks to the RV oral tradition, they lost that. The IVC was a rich place with fancy buildings, manhattan topology, covered sewer systems and the works. All these were lost for all time. We got the covered sewer only after the British came and even now many Indian cities don’t have covered sewer system. RV people also systematically modified the IVC religion and added their religion on top of it. The IVC people had an advanced solar calendar way ahead for its time. The RV people completely dismantled that and made the culture a far less advanced Lunar Calendar people. Thanks to the Tamils, Punjabis, Keralites and Bengalis, the solar calendar is still around. And here is the biggest problem introduced by the RV people - the IVC people gave equal respect to male and female and in some ways greater respect to females, whereas the RV people being a patriarchal people completely changed the system to make the woman subservient to men forever changing the lives of women in India. Now you tell me, which is worse - the India after the British or the India after the RV takeover?
there is ample evidence of the Aryan religion across the globe. you will see in the next post.
Senthil - Well, well. I see that you are only capable of asking questions! You can’t answer a single question I see.
Not just that, your reading comprehension must be poor. I asked questions - didn’t ridicule anything.
If you truly have a basis for believing that IVC is Vedic, you’ll have answers to my questions. Or, you’ll be curious to know my answers. If on the other hand, your opinion is not based on data, you won’t have any answers. Plus, you are not at all interested in the answers. And conveniently, you cop out that somebody else can answer my questions.
Only people who don’t have data on their side attack the arguer - as you have done - by stating that my questions “ridicule” the opposite point of view. I had explained this in my previous post - as an “Ad Hominem” fallacy in logic. But its nothing but a cop-out.
Perhaps you come to this site only to rant & rave and to twist what has been said. You don’t really come to ask constructive questions AND provide your sensible answers, do you?
Any by some snazzy piece of deduction, your point of view is correct even though you can’t answer a single question of ours. Even though most of our questions are based on scriptures. Which according to you, we don’t read.
Sukumar,
Ever since we started this journey, I keep on searching books related to IVC. The following book gives more inside about IVC, in this book chapter 9, page no 163, talks about “massacre” in IVC. But Dales and Kennedy both of them little skeptic about massacre but agreeing “something happened” to IVC people just before they started decline. Kennedy’s unbiased assessment may be true, but he also not sure about massacre but “something tragedy” happened in IVC.
The Indus Civilization: A Contemporary Perspective
By Gregory L. Possehl
Subba
Senthil,
Let me see if I understand you right. Here’s what I understand from your comments above (drum rolls please, this is using a cinematic view)
Para 1 - ” i have read your posts, and as such, i need to analyse what you have…” - I don’t have enough time to process the information you are giving me, so let me run my mouth off
Para 2 - Max mueller - See para 1
Para 3 - Max mueller is reasonable, but he is part of british conspiracy (Britishers came from Celtic UK and during their trade with IVC, they didn’t get their money’s worth for Tin. So, they’ve been fuming for a while and hence the conspiracy
Para 4 - See Para 1
Para 5 - Celtic revenge again. Now this time, since the Celtic settled in US later and had invaded other nations in Europe, it’s a group conspiracy. All the infrastructure that was built involves conspiracy as well - you see for nearly 2000 years we lived with lack of infrastructure and that didn’t bother us. Nehru, who is related to Kaman in IVC and Indra in RV is in on the conspiracy as well
Para 6 - Celtic instigated US is on the conspiracy. They control monies.
Para 7 - Entire nations are against us. The world is against us. Don’t believe anyone from any country writing anything about a country. Who are they to talk about us? Now, let me adjust my Tin Foil hat
Para 8 - I don’t know anything about Vedas, but I am going to authoritatively claim that many slokas come from Vedas, so there you have it. Rrrrrrsssss (blowing rasberries)
Para 9 - I am going to let some logic seep into my thought process, Whoa! that was a strange feeling. Let me go back
Para 10 - See Para 1
Para 11 - I really liked the RV invasion, we were so happy. Now, the celtic conspiracy has killed it. Baahhh! Baaahh! Baahh!
Though I started this as fun exercise, there’s some truth to this. Senthil, you should read your comments sometimes to see if it is in relevance to the topic of discussion. Why bring US, UK, all European nations into the topic if it is irrelevant? You won’t be mistaken if you express your point of view without having to bring a boat load of irrelevant crap.
You should use the approach that you’ve used in your earlier post. You did so well there initially - See questions below
————————-
Some common questions on Aryan Invasion..
1. It was mentioned that Aryans came through chariots & horses.. but, some historians say, its impossible to travel by chariots in that mountaineous regions..
2. Arabia was most famous for horses.. there is probability that horses were tamed there..
3. Aryans came and invaded IVC people.. But where from? and how? Are they militarily strong or only war tribes.
————————–
You see, these are valid questions as they are open ended and provokes thought. It will help your case even further if you provide references to the historians or scholars that you are referring to. You will get answers for these. Even question #4 is partly successful - “When aryans could invade and impose their religion on IVC people, why there doest exist even a bit of evidence in their original home land.. the so claimed central asia.. as far as i know, there is not even a bit of evidences related to supposed Aryan religion in central asia, either in literature or in archeology.. I think, this is most important point, for which there is no effective answer..”
You have prefaced it with “as far as I know” - Now, people can point you in the right direction.
Again another question that seem open ended (which is good) - “In my last comment in the earlier post in this series, i have given a link, which gives around 325 generations of royal lineage as excel file.. i am giving that link below..
http://www.newdharma.org/royal_chron.htm When we could refer dravidian gods, avesta, egypt, sumerian, i could not understand, why we could not consider this as one of the material for inference” - We can refer to the newdharma document you’ve presented, but the document and the excel file doesn’t provide any background or references for how the author came up with this idea, other than saying Indian civilization is the oldest and it is 9000 years old. Now, take that! Is that scientific, no. Heck, it won’t even pass if you try to run that by school kids.
Your question on “I dont know even a bit about rig veda.. but many sites mention that saraswati river was mentioned in RV.. (i think around 60 times).. these sites also mentioned that the course of saraswati river is also referred in RV..
As such, we have also cultural evidence of Triveni Sangamam.. the two rivers existing now, while the third river dried up..
I think, this aspect is not discussed in this series..”. I’ll provide you with a site that has translation for Rig Veda. It will take you a week to read it. Please read it so you can form your own opinion instead of believing what others say http://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/rigveda/index.htm Yes, Saraswati is mentioned 73 times in Rig Veda. What does that prove, though! It is still a dispute as to where Saraswati was http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sarasvati_River - Whether it is in India or in Afghanistan, how are you trying to connect IVC to Vedic culture through Saraswati? Don’t get lost in the traffic deluge.
When anyone brings up IVC, if your point of contention is that Vedic culture pre-dates it, but you have no proof for it as Rig Veda belongs to 1700BC ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rigveda ) and it has been word of mouth for many millennium before with no records, you’ll be immediately frowned upon.
If your interest is to learn more, please ask open ended questions and try and understand others point of view. Then form an opinion, suggest what your opinion is and provide references for why you have that opinion.
On the other hand, if you prefer the psuedo-science approach, ranting and raving approach or clouding opinions through non-verifiable references, even if you have a good point to make, you are not heard. Please help us understand you better by using the former and not the latter school.
Senthil - Asking questions is a good thing. As you can see, Karthik, Subba, Vamsi, Ganesh, NK, Archana, Maheswari etc - everyone has asked questions & raised doubts. Do you see how all of us give respect & get respect? Any question that you asked respectfully has been answered respectfully.
What is a very bad thing is, coming in without any curiosity to learn/contribute - Instead, you bring in a militant attitude which was fostered solely on a diet of revisionist cheats calling themselves historians.
You come with pre-conceived notions formed without sufficient data, you don’t even read the posts or the comments properly, repeatedly twist what people say (in a mis-guided attempt to argue), attempt to flood the authors with URLs in the hope that they’ll be scared (sadly you don’t seem to read your links yourself).
You must also know at some subsconscious level that you have insufficient data on your side. So, you weasel out of answering questions & think its enough if you ask some question that stumps the other party. Its all about winning & losing to you. The quest for knowing for the sake of knowledge - do you think about it ever?
You don’t have to agree with us. But if you only want to rant & rave, it seriously impacts your credibility as a human being. I’ve already tried (unsuccessfully) once to make you wary of sectarian forces. Looks like I’m losing that battle.
I am not really able to provide evidence on the pagan worship in central asia.But following Orthodox Christian Traditions Russian,Armenian,Ukranian etc have rituals which definetly have pagan orgin…especially the worship of the Trinity and all the symbols….Please look at Links below
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eastern_Orthodox_Church
http://lexicorient.com/e.o/arm_orth.htm
One of more thing with resepct to Shiva and Rudra..
Some versions say Rudra in sanskrit means the weeping one…but it meant the Red One in IVC.
Some versions of Shiva say that it means the Red one and not the auspicious one ….
This could be some a cause for linking Rudra and Shiva…this is my speculation….Interestingly one of most potent forms of Muruga in Tamil is Senthil which means the red one ….
Sukumar,
I have my questions/doubts on the Aryan Invasion Theory and violent incursion that you have stated based on information from a book that I trust, John Keay’s “India - A History”.
In his book, the author talks about reference to “pur” in the vedas meaning rampart, fort or stronghold. Indra is referred to as the “destroyer of forts” or purandara. And a logical conclusion could be that these forts could be the Harappan citadels. The author then refers to American George F. Dales who established the Harappan Archaeological Project (HARP) and here is what George F. Dales had to say about AIT –
“Nine years of extensive excavations at Mohenjo-Daro ( which seems to have been rapidly abandoned) have yielded a total of some 37 skeletons which can be attributed to the Indus period. None of these skeletons were found in the area of the fortified citadel, where reasonably the last defense of this city would have taken place.” He further states that “Despite extensive excavations at the largest Harappan sites, there is not a single bit of evidence that can be brought forth as unconditional proof of an armed conquest and destruction on the scale of the supposed Aryan invasion.”
It is also doubted that the Aryan chariots and catapults could have made much of an impression on the 13 meters thick and tall Harappan walls. The Aryan migration theory is one that we can probably stand on. This makes further sense given that the Aryans were semi-nomadic folks, outdoorsy by nature that was exemplified by their worship of forces of nature such as agni, varuna, indra etc.
John Keays indicates that they initially settled in the Punjab, long indo-pak border which is referred in the Vedas as “Sapta-Sindu” – Land of seven rivers. A snippet from the book that piqued my curiosity was that the Vedas had no mention of life in Central Asia. One reasonably plausible explanation that the author gives is the time lag between the migration of Aryans from central Asia to the time when the Vedas were compiled. Though I found this a bit hard to digest, I found this somewhat plausible.
It sounds like there was a wave of migration by various tribes over centuries that led to Aryan incursion, but perhaps not a violent destructive one that destroyed the Harappans. Of these wave of migrations, the rig-vedic Indo Aryans could have been the last ones. So, it was not invasion but incursion and gradual mingling of local population with the nomadic migrators.
Decline of IVC is attributed to climate changes and tectonic movements though IVC culture did not extinguish fully and remnants of it could be found in later civilizations.
Ganesh
Sukumar
Going through your post , I saw a pattern. And after Archana reminded me of Ayn Rand, I would call them ‘premises’. The premises on which your post is based on are
1. That RV is a story narration (rather than a collection of verses in praise)
2. All that is available now of RV is the complete RV
3. That RV narrated the entire life of the so called Aryans
4. That it was the so called Aryans who wrote the RV
5. That the RV is a standalone taxt in the quartet of the Vedas
6. The more number of times a God’s name is mentioned, the more they are revered
7. That Indra was one among the so called Aryan
8. That Indra killed the suburban populace and left the main citadels of walled cities
First, before proceeding, as a practicing Hindu, let me register my protest. No mention of Gayatri, No mention of that famous mantra ‘ ekam sat, viprA bahuA vadanti ‘ and, most surprisingly, no mentions of the Rishis.
1. To me the first images that come into my mind on the mention of Rigveda are the above.
2. We have a legend and also a mention in Puranas that it was Vyasa who segregated the Vedas. Before that they were a seamless whole.
3. May I humbly put it across that it was the seers who compiled the Vedas. Not a armed soldier. Not even the conspiring King waiting with blood thirst for the unarmed, peasant of the IVC ! It was the same seers that gave us the mantra pushpam, chanted till date, and the Gayatri. But for an eye trained to look for a predator in a Rishi, no proof will suffice.
4. RV is not a documentary film on so called Aryans. In fact RV got segregated only after Vyasa , whose timeline is ….(well let me allow you the pleasure of another dig at Aryans)
5. First , the construct of Aryans itself on shakier grounds. Only when it is proved we will move on to what they did. Sukumar, what did your concordance count for the word ‘Arya’ in RV ?
And you think the most number of words are the conveyors of the theme in a work. Are you sure ? If a
convict’s name is mentioned in a judgement more number of times, and the name justice is mentioned
only once, what do you aver ? You are forgetting that , this is a scripture, meant for prayer. You don’t
find clues to mass murder.
6. The sixth premise of Indra was one among the Aryans- Hw about myself proceeding over this ? For Gayatri chanting, the pranayama mantra, the rishis are atri, brighu, kutsa, vashishta, gowthama, kashyapa, angiras
chandas are gayatri , ushnik, anushtup, bruhati, pankti,trishtup, jagati
devata are agni, vayu, arka, vageesa, varuna, Indra, visva deva
I showed the above to point out that Indra is counted as Devata. If you had forgotten the Shanti mantra, look at it again
svasti na indro vruddha sravA:- Let the ancient Indra do good to us.
So , Indra was their God. Our God.
7. One curious thing you have left unmentioned is that ISC people were unarmed. No arms worth their name were recovered. Why your deducting brain hasn’t come up with some deductions here too ?
On the contrary, my ‘induction’ is that the ISC sites where the excavations were done were merely vilages or settlements of a larger entity. Why should a small city be armed to the teeth when the danger is not immediate and as long as it is in the heart land ? The enemy will attack the capital not the periphery. Why should Indra kill the peasants, leaving the soldiers who have dug in the citadel ? Makes sense ?
And , you did not tell us the fate of the other 2,600 sites scattered across north India from Kashmir to Gujarat, some even in Baluchistan. The serial Killer Indra must have made a pattern of killing there in other sites too. Go on . Unearth.
8. So, Indra was an Aryan ? What about the Indra Vizla celebrated in Poompuhar as mentioned in Silappadikaram ? What about the words ‘Indirane sAlun kari ‘ in ThirukkuraL ? When did the Aryans Tamilise Indra ?
9. A little help at the end. As you searched for Brahma , you got the lowly 2 concordance count. Try PrajApati instead.
Venkat
Thanks for the comments.
I request you to read the already-published 15 parts of the series “No Aryan -Dravidian divide, It was one Arya vartha” in my blog.
The write-ups on pithrus, is a mid-way break in the series,
which I will be concluding in a few more posts.
This series is necessary as I would be bringing out the commonality between the factors and issues involved in water oblations (such as darbhai, eclipses, the mantras etc) and also the rationale of TarpaNam, as found in what is now relegated as defunct or meaningless practices, with those found in ancient Tamil texts.
My rationale is that if Dravidians had been chased down to the South,
there must certainly be present some information of it in Tamil texts, some of which are dated as far as back to pre-Mahabharatha days.
But there were absolutely none.
Instead every Tamil text that was written 2000 years ago contained some information that this land mass of Bharatha was intact, was one with one culture and followed one Dharma.
There was no sign of any dichotomy with those in the north of Vidhyas.
You will find in my recent blog (Gods and worship…) that it was one Dharma throughout this earth.
There is evidence from Valmiki Ramayana, that those who are regarded as Aryans and migrated, were indeed the ones chased and exiled by king Asita, 19th king in the lineage of Ikshvakus. (more on my blog post mentioned above).
The dating of this would be taken up by me after finishing the One Aryavartha series.
The dating has been already written by me and posted in a group a few years ago, and it concurs with the findings of Prof Vartak, whose dating of Rama remains unchallenged till today.
The One Aryavartha series in my blog will continue after the present one pithrus,
with the abundantly available inputs from ancient Tamil texts where we find information,
that
(1) the land mass called Bharatha varsha extended from Himalayas to the now sub-merged land of Kumari
- in the south of Kanya kumari of today, until about 5000 years ago.
(2) It was one culture, and Veads was common to all even among Tamils.
(3) Krishna had visited the Pandyan kingdom in the now sub-merged land (i suggest a reading of my write-ups on ‘Nappinnai” where you will find the details of this as also the way the inner purport of Vedas - NiLa sookhtham - are related)
(4)When Dwaraka was sub-merged, this extended land of Kumari also was submerged, forcing the survivors to migrate to the present day Madurai in Tamil nadu. Marine archaeologists have come up with evidence of this.
(5)Sage Agasthya brought the surviving people of Dwaraka, (belonging to 3 different groups from Royals to peasants) and settled them in two places, one near Madurai, on the eastern side of western ghats
and another near Kudremukh in present day Karnataka.
There are enough inputs in Tamil texts openly mentioning these.
These places came to be referred to as “dravida” (’dra’ meaning to run and ‘vida’ meaning a place or land) by the people who left remained in the North who later became part of what we now call as Indus valley civilization.
The final conclusion that emerges is that no one migrated and no one was dis-located.
They (those in the North and in the South) co-existed as One people.
Please read all the posts patiently in the order published.
For easy identification of the blog-series on One Arya vartha,
click the following, to read the first part of the series and continue.
http://jayasreesaranathan.blogspot.com/2008/01/no-aryan-dravidian-divide-it-was-one.html
Although I want to refrain from commenting on your analysis, Mr Sukumar,
I wish to make the following observation.
Vedas are not meant for knowing what they say (meanings).
They possess power which can be realized only while reciting.
It is mentioned in Mahabharatha that when Narada met Vyasa in his ashram in the slopes of Himalayas,
he was appalled at the silence there.
He told that though meditation has to be done in calm surroundings,
any place that does not reverberate the vibrations of Vedas can not contribute to spiritual awakening.
He asked him to immediately summon his disciples and arrange for ‘Veda-gosham’ at all three times of the day.
Vedas and the verses of Vedas are meant to create some ambiance or transform the atmosphere.
The meanings do not matter.
although the meanings are metaphorical or metaphysical only.
(One such metaphorical allusion has been related to Nappinnai, the analysis of which can be found in my blog link given here.
http://jayasreesaranathan.blogspot.com/2008/01/secrets-in-thiruppavai-secret-4_2717.htm
That the purport of the mantras is more of physics, has come to be known from the scientific analysis of a homa, called Agnihothra, some details of which can be read in my blog link below.
http://jayasreesaranathan.blogspot.com/2008/01/open-letter-to-chief-minister.html )
Even acharyas like Adi Shankara and Ramanuja did not translate Vedas,
nor did they interpret the meanings.
They could have easily done that, as they had with whole lot of upanishads.
They even refrained from quoting verses from Vedas while writing their commentaries on Brahma sutras.
Only Europeans in their zeal translated vEdas and attributed their versions from what they had known.
That contributed to vitiation of our past history.
Ms. Jayashree..what can I say..you almost are saying it is a sin to translate vedas. Why? Why should one take such position.
I still do not understand why we cannot bring ‘evidence’ - whether it is scientific like using dating techniques, archaeological evidence or other means and prove/ disprove this theory.
As a practicing Hindu, I dont mind anyone questioning anything in my religion. I would even go to the extent to say that if that kind of fact finding is not done, our religion cannot be great. Let us face it. Why cannot western standards be applied to our culture. Why do we fear or draw conspiracy theories about how westerners want to screw our ancient civilization. Did they do the same to Egyptian/ Mayan ’s Why must they do to Indian?
Jayasree,
Thanks for stopping by and leaving such detailed comments about your work. I would like to understand why want to refrain from commenting on my analysis? With all due respect, blogging is a democratic platform. If you want me to read yours and comment on it, i think it is reasonable for me to expect the same from you. Additionally, i want to point out to you that, it is you that has come to our blog and are requesting us to read yours. Therefore, here is my request to you, i have written only 6 posts so far. please read all of them and write your comments and then i will do the same. Deal?
Thanks Karthik. You are on the money on the Siva interpretation. You will see more about that in this series. I will go through the links you have provided later because it seems to cover the Christian period and I am still atleast 1500-2000 years before that. i do know that christianity has incorporated several pagan rituals/symbols already.
Subba,
Thanks. I also don’t think any massacres happened but violence did take place because per RV Indra destroyed something. As i said above the Pura=fort interpretation may be inaccurate.
Ganesh,
Thanks fo