The Real History of India – Part 7: Chariots, Horses and Thunderbolts
The Real History of India – Part 7: Chariots, Horses and ThunderboltsUpdated March 4, 2008: Asko Parpola covers the IVC Script & Aryan Invasion Theory debate in his interview in the Hindu newspaper today.
Updated March 3, 2008: Sreedhar said he was not able to access the ODS format spreadsheet. I have uploaded the Excel format as well. Sorry about that.
Prolog:
In this post, we make an attempt to understand the Aryan Invasion Theory further. We already showed in the previous post that it was Aryanization and not Aryan Invasion. Given the nature of this discussion, dates assume critical significance in contrast to the other posts in this series so far.
Happenings in the Central Asian Plate [4000-1700BC]
Domestication of the Horse – It is hard to believe that, what could be termed a routine animal husbandry innovation, the taming of yet another animal – the horse in 4000 BC in the Eurasian Steppes of Ukraine turned out to be a tectonic event in the history of humankind. But what actually made the domestication of the horse a major event, was the tying of the horse to the Chariot in Northern Kazakhastan by the Sintashta and Petrovka culture in 2100 BC. One additional innovation these people made is the Spoked Wheel in place of the solid wheel which gave the chariots the speed and agility by making the wheels much lighter. The Sintashta and Petrovka cultures are a sub-culture of the larger Andronovo Culture . There is evidence of the Andronovo Culture’s continued presence in the Southern Russia/Northern Kazakhstan area till 1000 BC. Interestingly, the Sintashta & Petrovka Sub-Cultures, who buried chariots and gave us the evidence, lasted from 2100-1700 BC. And even more interestingly, the Fedorovo sub-culture show evidence of cremation and fire worship dated 1500-1300 BC.
Modified Kurgan Hypothesis – As I explained before, Marija Gimbutas postulated the Kurgan Hypothesis using which she showed that the Kurgan people, as she called them due to their unique burial customs, spread out as the Indo Europeans across the world with a patriarchal militaristic culture that overran the Mother Goddess culture everywhere. We already know that it wasn’t a simple matristic Mother Goddess culture but a full-fledged proto-trinity. In my readings, there is linguistic evidence to show that elements of Proto-Indo-European language and customs were present in Ukraine from 2500-2000 BC which shows splitting into Proto-Greek and Proto-Indo-Iranian . The Proto-Indo-Iranian arm appearing in the Andronovo culture we spoke about earlier and the Proto-Greek arm appearing in the Catacomb Culture .
Happenings in the Neolithic Plate [5300-539 BC]
First, let us look at a 2000BC map of the world which shows the constituents of the Neolithic Plate very well to orient ourselves. Sumer is represented by Ur III (Southern Mesopotamia) and Hurrians (Northern Mesopotamia).
What i did next is to compile the key dates for all the reference civilizations of the Neolithic Plate – Egyptian, Sumerian, Minoan, IVC, Elamite, Anatolian, Dilmun, Mycenean. I also included Celts but i couldn’t find any key dates for them.
I have included the entire compilation into this open document format spreadsheet Key Historical Events [Excel format: Key Historical Events Excel]. Please open this spreadsheet and take a look at the sheet titled “Bronze Age Dates”. I have included as many references and commentary for all of you to understand some of the key events taking place as I understood them.
As i was compiling the dates, i made some observations:
1. Around 2000 BC, Hittites turned out to be the earliest Indo-European arrival in the Neolithic Plate into the Anatolian area and they become one of the most powerful people in the region. They quickly became literate adopting the Anatolian Hieroglyphics which we covered in our earlier post. By 1800 BC, they borrowed the Akkadian Cuneiform to create the Hittite Cuneiform script. Their key god was the Storm God [equivalent of Indra]. The rest of the pantheon shows amalgamation with the Luwian pantheon. Hittites also introduced their big military innovation – the Triga or the 3-horse chariot which can carry one charioteer plus 2 warriors, in place of the Biga or the 2-horse chariot which could carry only one warrior aside from the charioteer.
2. In every major area, there seems to be evidence of amalgamation of the local people in the Neolithic Plate. Even the most war-like of the new arrivals – the Hittites show a lot of evidence of amalgamating with the previous Luwian culture. This is in stark contrast to Gimbutas’s assertion that the world was completely overrun by the war-like Indo Europeans across the board completely decimating the previous Mother Goddess culture.
At this point I decided to sort the dates in the Bronze Age Dates sheet in descending order to see anything new will pop-up. I made this into another sheet – Bronze Age Dates Sorted in the same spreadsheet file mentioned above. Voila! Many key Bronze Age events jumped out at me by clustering around [I marked these in yellow] 1700 BC:
1. We have already proved that Minoa is Magan . Minoan Crete suffers 2 major destructions (1700 BC and 1400BC) – both times their palaces in Knossos were burnt down. Natural Calamities are suspected – archaeologists looking for a volcanic eruption to explain the destruction and the decline of Minoa. Linear A script appears in Knossos after 1700BC which i observed to be similar to cuneiform [Citation Needed]. After 1400BC, Myceneans take control of Crete. Poseidon becomes a key god in Knossos [Poseidon=Rudra]. Since the horned god Cernunnos was there in Minoa, they connected it to Poseidon like the Aryans tied Rudra to IVC’s Siva.
2. IVC rises to its maturity and the trail of evidence shows that the IVC cities (not the suburbs) were abandoned around 1700 BC. Historians are not able to explain this abandonment and are looking towards Natural Calamities – floods, sudden drying of rivers etc to explain this. We also have evidence of Aryans entering the IVC area.
3. In 1700 BC, The Mitanni – a third splinter group of the Proto-Indo-Iranians invade Hurrians in Northern Mesopotamia [The other 2 are Iranians and Aryans]. We get to see the world’s first written mention of the Proto-Indo-Iranian gods – Indra, Varuna, Nasatya (Ashwini Twins) in the Mitanni-Hittite Treaty of 1380 BC. By then Mitannis have become the Proto-Indo-Iranian super-stratum on top of the Hurrian people. Mitanni also cremate their dead.
4. Elamite-Babylonians take over Southern Mesopotamia. Dilmun collapses in 1600 BC. Middle Kingdom comes to an end in Egypt in 1630 BC.
5. Hittites started a major territorial expansion drive in 1700 BC. They have also adopted the new Cuneiform script by then.
Neolithic Supply Chain Collapses
If you go back and read the Neolithic Supply Chain post you will see that all the events above are affecting all the constituent parts of the pentagonal supply chain – Sumer, IVC (Meluhha), Magan, Dilmun, Anatolia and Egypt. I also proved in that post that the whole raison d’etre for the Supply Chain was the hard to find Tin which was sourced from Celtic UK via the hub at Magan. It is easy to deduce at this point that the Supply Chain was totally disrupted due to a near simulataneous attack on all the major nodes [Egypt there is no attack but somehow the Middle Kingdom ended]. It doesn’t appear that all of these were coordinated even though most of the conquests were done by the Indo-European peoples except the Elamite-Babylonian who don’t seem to be Indo-European.
This collapse triggers a huge shortage of Bronze in the Neolithic Plate and shows up in the historical records as such. A major trade disruption also shows up in the historical record of the Bronze Age. It took nearly 500 years after the collapse of the Neolithic Supply Chain to pave the way for the discovery of Iron which ushered in the Iron Age with an accepted dating of 1200 BC.
Neolithic Plate Subducts Under the Central Asian Plate
When I came up with the Anthropological Plate Tectonics analogy, I had just begun my research. I had no idea that I will land up at the point that I am at now. I used this analogy based upon the fact that the Neolithic world was collaborating extensively and I had read about the Austronesians hiving off from China and overrunning the pacific-oceanic islands thanks to their outrigger canoe – a breakthrough invention. I thought that resembled the Plate Tectonics concept of Subduction – one plate buckling under the other to form a new fused area in the border areas of the plates.
Well, look at what happened in the Neolithic world, by 1000 BC or so the entire Neolithic mother goddess culture had been amalgamated by the Indo European Culture everywhere in the Neolithic world except the Celts and the Eastern and Southern Regions of the Indian subcontinent. Subduction is an useful analogy, because if you look from the top it appears to be Indo European, but when you dig deeper, you clearly see the Neolithic Substratum everywhere.
I believe this is the critical error we are making both in Greece and India, looking just at the most recent layer and coming to a conclusion based on that. Interestingly, if you look at who is driving these erroneous conclusions – it is the Greek Nationalists in Greece and Hindu nationalists in India (Hindutvavadis). In Greece, the revisionist historians are trying hard to find a non-existent Volcanic eruption in Crete so that they can extend the Greek historical record back into the Minoan period because they want to prove that the highly advanced Minoan civlization was Greek. In India, revisionist historians are trying to invent some natural calamity to explain the abandonment of the IVC Cities so that they can extend the Vedic people back into the IVC period to show that the Vedic people are indigenous and that the highly advanced IVC was Vedic!
Epilog:
With this post, we complete our look at the Aryan Invasion Theory. From our next post we will go back to the IVC again. Here are some questions for you to dig deeper into:
1. Who burnt down Knossos in 1700 BC and again in 1400BC?
2 . How come Hittites and Myceneans who we say are Indo Europeans bury their dead, whereas the Indo Iranians and Mitannis cremate their dead?
3. Based on the above, what date would you assign to the Vedas?
Very interesting, Sukumar.
If horses made such a big difference to the Andronovo culture (Proto-Aryans), I thought the horse should be a God. Turns out, Poseidon was also the god of horses at one time. Not sure whether this was before or after they heard of Cernunnos.
And the Fedorovo culture had fire worship. Hmm – the dawn of Agni worship & the precursor to Avesta/Vedas, perhaps?
I thought Linear A & B were similar to Hittite Hieroglyphics writing. Please correct me if I’m wrong. Cuneiform writing is wedge shaped & hence isn’t linear.
The Middle Kingdom in Egypt ends because “Hyksos” attack them. Some people think that Hyksos brought horses along with them
Not sure if this is true, because I thought all of Arabia had horses. But in any case, this just makes your theory stronger. BTW, where Hyksos Hittites or Chaldeans? I think they were from Babylon – then Chaldeans.
It seems that everytime a culture goes thru a downfall, the 1st thing that’s flushed out of the toilet is the script. Linear B, even though it was used extensively in Turkey & Greece disintegrated after the fall of the Hittites & the Myceneans. Only in 800 BC did the modern Greek script make its appearance, modeled on the Phoenician script.
So, people who think IVC is actually ISC – should ask themselves why the Indus script disappeared. Could it be because – here’s a thought – the IVC culture disintegrated & was no longer a force?
Thanks Priya. You have given me a lots of food for thought here.
1. You are right. Horse should be a God and it was – the Ashwini Twins (Nasatya, Dasra) are the horse gods. I wondered for a long time why they are a twin god. That is because they thought the Sun God rode on a chariot drawn by 2 horses one representing dawn and another representing dusk. Now Poseidon becoming a Horse God is interesting. I didn’t know that. Consider this – Nasatya is a God in the Proto-Indo-Iranian arm, maybe the Proto-Greek arm didn’t carry this particular mythology with them but had Indra (Zeus), Rudra (poseidon), Varuna (Ouranos) and other replicates.
2. Right, the Fedorovo had cremation and fire worship. Interesting, isn’t it.
3. Linear A appears for the first time in Crete and Linear B is a derivative of Linear B. Linear A has not been deciphered. Since the Hittites had already adopted Akkadian Cuneiform by 1800 BC and I believe they are the ones that attacked and conquered Knossos in 1700 BC, i guessed that Linear A is inspired by Cuneiform. Linear A is not directly connected but uses the idea of using more lines and curves in place of pictures, which you could say is inspired by Cuneiform. [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cuneiform_script#Akkadian_cuneiform]
4. i did not read much about the Hyksos. that is very interesting that they also came from outside Egypt. i didn’t know that. thanks for the pointer.
5. You are bang on the money, script becoming defunct seems to be a pattern. I hadn’t thought of it this way, but now that you mention it, i am not able to think of a single script that survived a conquest!
6. Yes, the ISC proponents must consider this amongst many other evidences that they refuse to consider.
Thanks Sukumar.
I thought Ashwini Twins were replaced by the Dioscuri – Castor & Pollux in Greek. They were the brothers of Helen. Though I don’t think they were horse Gods per se. Interestingly enough, Castor was a horse tamer
Perhaps the Dioscuri were a later addition. Perhaps I’m over-rating their importance.
Hyksos came from Canaan, became bureaucrats in Egypt during the middle kingdom, then took over parts of Egypt since the pharaohs were weak. They might have been Hittites. Interestingly enough, some Biblical scholars think they were Semitic Jewish people
And they think the Hyksos getting their marching orders to quit Egypt – is the Exodus. I wonder though. Doesn’t tie in well.
And the Fedorovo worshipping fire is the proof of the Indo European religion that Senthil needed. Looks like the remnants of that religion did linger on to leave records of some kind. Cool.
Thanks Priya.
1. I didn’t know about the Dioscuri. You may be right. Since during our Greece visit, we saw the Centaur myth and a lot of other Horsey stuff, i thought that was sufficient to conclude that Horses were very important pointing to a Indo-European origin.
2. By 1800BC, the Hittites had control over most of Anatolia and possibly Canaan area as well. I need to check on that. Given that background and the fact that the only dates for Jews is from the Old Testament, which is a religious document and hence less reliable for dating, i find it difficult to believe that Hyskos were Jewish. I would venture to guess that they were a splinter of the Hittites, but i could be wrong.
3. Good point on the Fedorovo. Yes, this seems like the one that will answer Senthil’s question on evidence of Aryans in Central Asia. Not just that, the Andronovos lasted till 1000 BC providing us sufficient evidence of the Proto-Indo-Europeans.
Priya,
Another reason i doubt the jewish theories is this – they should first make up their mind on whether the jews were slaves of Egypt or Kings of Egypt. It is clear that the Hyksos were kings and clearly never the slaves.
Thank you for the post Sukumar. I am still figuring out the dateline from your document. Does burning of Knossos analogous to the burning of classic-IVC buildings by the indo-Europeans (so called Aryans)
Sure Vamsi. No Vamsi, the IVC Cities (not subrubs) were abandoned around 1700BC with no signs of destruction visible. Whereas Knossos was really burnt down.
I’m going to take a shot at the burial/cremation question, Sukumar.
Answer # 1:
The Parsis don’t cremate their dead, do they? They leave the bodies in the “Tower of Silence” for the vultures.
People who lived in the Swat region in Pakisthan used cremation as well as burial. These were the Aryans that were ousted by the Iranians. They then abandoned burial & vultures eating their corpses to differentiate themselves from Iranians.
Answer # 2:
Going by Avesta, people had to spread out of their homeland because of lack of space. So, Indo-Iranians, who started out perhaps later than Myceneans or Hittites, faced the land shortage? So, they cremated the bodies?
Answer # 3:
The Mittanis & Aryans had something in common: A strong native culture & a huge native population that they had to subsume – Hurrians & Dravidians. Dravidians buried their people in pots. So, the Aryans showed themselves to be different by burning their dead?
Answer # 4:
It is common to see people changing their burial customs. We saw this in Egypt. Aryans were burying their dead. Then, they were saddened by vultures & foxes digging out the dead. So they cremated them to ensure that the bodies won’t be defiled.
Please let me know your thoughts.
Great answers Priya. It slipped my mind that the Avestans didn’t actually cremate.
In general, burial customs are a dead giveaway in Anthropology. In general, similar burial customs mean similar culture. Rarely does any group voluntarily change their burial customs. As you said Egypt is a great example of that.but I’d say the changes were gradual than radical. I see cremation and fire worship as related concepts. in other words they want to offer up the dead to the main god Agni. Even weddings are solemnized by the fire. Mitanni and Aryans who are both from the proto indo iranian arm of PIE, both cremated and worshipped fire. Space problem could be an issue but I think it also has something to do with the nature of their Gods. Avestans I think were the splitaway group because they changed the gods and also changed the burial customs.
You’re right IVC people buried their dead in urns. Clearly another major difference from the Aryans and as I said above it is a dead giveaway for them being different people from the Aryans.
Overall great answers.
That is an interesting statement about the burial habits of different cultures Sukumar. I never knew that IVC folks (should I interchange it with Dravidians) used to bury their dead. That is a drastic change from what we do now.
What about Gonds? I could not find whether they bury/cremate from internet. Theoretically they should bury. Am I right?
We use the term Dravidians because the IVC people as well as the people living throughout the Indian subcontinent at that time were following the same culture and religion. I suspect Gonds and other fiercely protective tribals may have been following their paleolithic customs even then.
It is a great guess that Gonds would have buried their dead. Here is a citation
http://books.google.co.in/books?id=yhV2DkrdNFkC&pg=PA89&lpg=PA89&dq=gonds+burial+customs&source=web&ots=La1RwCQ2Pq&sig=wJ-Qkbok25AcpBOKUftRUyez1bE&hl=en
Remember it is not just whether they bury, but how they bury is what is typically unique. Most cultures buried their dead and usually burials give you an indicator of their customs, social status etc. For instance, the Dravidians buried their dead in urns (we call it Mudhu Makkat Thaazhi or old age urn). This is very unique. Remember clay was very important to them and hence using a pot for burial is a natural fit. This is how burial customs give you a lot of clues about the people and what was important to them. Now the Aryans cremated. Anthropologically speaking, it is unfortunate, because it doesn’t leave any room for grave goods and other funerary practices that give you clues about the people.
Hope that helps?
Interesting post, it takes sometime for me to understand it and digest the information. Though this is irrelevant, Tibetans have the practice of Sky Burial – “Jhator”- where a human corpse is cut into small pieces and placed atop a mountain, exposing it to the elements/birds/animals, if there are remains, then the person is considered a sinner!!!! If interested, read more from this link, can’t explain as it is too sad. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sky_burial.
Zoroastrian burial system is called ‘Nasu-spaya’, cremation and throwing into water is considered as a sin among Iranians. I read this link on Zoroatrian funeral practice for the above info http://www.cais-soas.com/CAIS/Religions/iranian/Zarathushtrian/Oric.Basirov/zoroastrian_funerary_laws_part_i.htm.
Rupika – Interesting. The link on Jhator says that Tibetans got that practice from Zoroastrians.
Sukumar – Just an observation.
Knossos burnt down in 1700 BC & 1400 BC. Lanka was burnt down in the Ramayan too – but I thought Ramayan was dated to 1450 BC. Troy was burnt at the end of the Trojan war – the dates given vary from 12th century BC to 14th century BC.
What I mean is, burning seems to be the preferred Indo-European mode of finishing off the enemy cities.
Rupika,
That is very interesting. From your research it shows clearly that the Avestans made cremation a sin. This is what cultures typically do – prohibit the previously popular custom saying it is against God’s wishes or some such. Your citation is another evidence that the Avestans tried to create a modified identity from the Proto-Indo-Iranian which the Mitanni, Vedic and Avestan people started from.
Priya,
Yeah, it is very interesting that the Tibetan practice could be traced to the Avestans.
And yeah, setting the enemy’s bastions on fire seems to be a common Indo-European technique which is seen in the Ramayana, Iliad as well as the Mahabharata.
For what its worth, there are way too many similarities between the Illiad & Ramayan.
And most interestingly, I’m reading the Rig Vedic abduction myth in Mandala 10 – “The abduction of Saranyu”. Vivasvant abducts Saranyu, the wife of Surya & she begets the Ashwini twins. Who, I had earlier mentioned were the equivalent of Castor & Pollux. They, incidentally are Helen’s brothers in the Illiad. And Ram is from the Ikshvakus, the Sun dynasty. So, the abduction myht was part of the Indo-European repertoire.
1. In both, the wife of a king is kidnapped. Helen runs away with Paris & Seetha is abducted by Ravan.
2. The wrong-doer is supported by an admirable, duty bound, valiant, principled, heroic brother. Both die in the battle. The narrators of the myth didn’t have the heart to say anything negative about them. Hector in the Illiad supports Paris & Kumbh Karna supports Ravan.
3. Both Helen & Seetha are restored to their husbands in the end. Both were humiliated by their husbands then – Seetha had to prove her purity by entering fire. Helen had to bear her bosom to show her inferiority.
4. Both have a scheming, ambitious brother. Agamemnon is Menelaus’s brother, who is the husband of Helen. Vibhishan is Ravan’s brother & he gets Lanka after the war. Sorry, I have no illusions about Vibhishan.
5. Many kings supported Menelaus in his quest for Helen. Many kings supported Ram in his quest for Seetha.
6. A great sea separated the land of the Myceneans from the land of Troy. A great sea separated Ram from Lanka.
7. Ram had his brother Lakshman on his side. Menelaus had his brother Agamemnon on his side.
8. Both Seetha & Helen were great beauties & many kings vied with each other to marry them.
Though the similarities end here. I believe that the Illiad was a battle fought between 2 Indo-Europeans: Myceneans & Hittites.
Priya,
Very interesting comparison between Iliad and Ramayan. I didn’t know about the abduction myth in the Rig Veda. That and these similarities between the 2 great epics is very interesting.
Romila Thapar says that there was a king by name Janaka and another by name Rama and also that Janaka seemed to have more importance in the historical records.
Clearly the Ramayan has elements of fact and elements of embellishment. My suspicion based on Thapar’s research is that, an existing King’s story was embellished with popular epic elements of that age to make a more powerful enduring story.
I also noted that Rama is the reverse of Mara. The story of the writing of Ramayana by Valmiki goes like this – Valmiki, a hunter was asked to meditate and chant Mara Mara continuously. He meditates so much that an Anthill forms over him giving rise to his name Valmiki which means Ant Hill. During this chanting the divine story of Rama is revealed to him which he then proceeds to write down as the Ramayana.
The Mara as the reverse of Rama has more significance as we will see later when we delve deeper into the IVC religion.
Sukumar,
Very interesting post and indeed interesting comments as well. Was traveling and couldn’t comment earlier.
Here’s my theory
1. I started wondering why the pastoral people of Sintashta and Petrovka culture (2 separate, sintashta being earlier and petrovka being later) move from kazakhstan. Pastoral communities are in general nomads and move where there’s water. I wondered if the climate changed or the terrain changed to force them to move out of Kazakhstan into present day ukraine, romania etc. Then, I saw this article http://www.euronet.nl/users/e_wesker/climate.html Looks like, around 2000 BC, northern Europe would have experienced famine (I am making a leap of faith here). I wonder if that made them move in the first place – Some from the north towards west (hittites) and some towards the south (later to become the proto-indo-iranians)
2. I think the first steppe pastoralists (from your map http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/84/World_2000_BCE.png ) moved out of the kazakhstan region and moved towards present day ukraine, romania and bulgaria to get into the anatolian region. As you say, these are the first movers into the neolithic plate. The domesticated horse could have slowly entered the neolithic plate from the west. This could explain why horse (ashvins) was not an important god in the proto-indo-greek religion compared to the proto-indo-iranian religions. They were aware and used to the horse and so it’s not a mesmerizing thing for them (whereas in IVC it was not)
3. Now, why didn’t the early movers choose to move directly to IVC in the south – My theory – indo-europeans wouldn’t have reached the southern kazakhstan until later. Say, 300 years later. Even then, the path to IVC from their north and northeast is protected by kyroyztan and tajikistan. Both are mountainous terrains and is very difficult to get through. ( http://www.bartleby.com/151/fields/11.html ). Check the map of the world ( http://www.world-map.nl/maps/political-world-map-2007.gif ).
4. So, we have in 2000BC the first indo europeans settling into neolithic plate from the west. It took them another 300 years (10 generations in those days) to get through from their south. Easier path on the south is through uzbekistan and turkeminstan (both flat and sandy). I wonder if that’s what made them go with a two person chariot compared to a 3 person chariot (to move faster through the somewhat sandy lands).
5. Hmmm! everything is happening with the hurrians, URIII and the IVC people around them. The closest one is hurrians. Hence the attack on them around 1700BC.
6. It would have been another 100-200 years before they reached IVC. That means the Aryan amalgamation would have happened around 1600 – 1500 BC. By reaching hurrians in 1700BC, I wonder if they were responsible for cutting down a major portion of the supply-chain system to IVC and thereby making the people move out of the IVC cities into suburbs. 300 years ago, they have probably already cut the Tin supply from the celtic that was coming through minoan civilization. Now that the hub for the supply-chain is in turmoil around 1700BC, I wonder if that’s what brought the entire trade practice to a standstill.
7. You have raised some interesting points about Mitra, Varuna, Indra and Ashvins being the 4 main gods for the Indo-iranians. Being pastoral, I can understand the need for water (Varuna), the need for rain and clouds (Indra) and the need for horses to carry them around (ashvins). Why Mitra? – Reading about the hittites and your amalgamation theory, it’s interesting that they used the treatise approach with the anatolians. I am sure as they spread themselves, they have to have treatise and compromise for their survival. If you look at Rig Veda for depiction of Mitra, Mitra is supposed to appease to all the devas and bring them all to unified thinking. I think it is the ‘mediator’ concept that is very important to them as they move into any new place (language barrier, cultural barrier etc and they wouldn’t want to fight with everyone)
8. Interestingly, Tarhun (the sky and storm god of hittite) fights with the snake dragon illuyanka and the first time illuyanka wins. Doesn’t this sound familiar? ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indra – read ahalya’s curse). It lends credence to the ramayana theory that Priya talks about.
9. Also, read the Indra and the ants story in the same reference http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indra . Looks like it’s talking about the knowledge that there are so many of the same sky/storm gods throughout the world and Indra of the indo-iranian period is not the only one. Hmmm!
10. One interesting, but way off the ledge thought – Indra and Devas are considered bad people in zoarastrianism. I wonder if that comes from the proto-indo-greek culture (west) and not from the proto-indo-iranian culture (south) – coming right from the original people of kazakstan. Rain (ice and snow) would have meant doom to people from northern kazakstan. They have to worship Thunder and Rain for different reasons (not to fall on them and ice them). That could be a reason why it varies between zoarastrianism and rig veda. Check out Indra’s theory again ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indra ) and check the section zoarastrianism. ” freezes the minds of the creatures from practicing righteousness just like much frozen snow. He instills this into the minds of men that they ought not to have the sacred shirt and thread girdle”. Hence, for indo-european from the west, rain means ice and so it’s a pain whereas those who moved through the south and the desert of uzbekstan, rain is a welcome sign.
11. Not connected to the post thought – Meluhha. Is that where we got the “Maligai” word in tamil. Remember, there is no “ha” in tamil only a “ga”. So, melaga can easily become maliga
(meaning a storied building)
Coming to your questions
1. You already gave the answer out for who burnt the knossos down – hittites (pre-cursor to aryans. IVC should have seen it coming
2. Why hittites bury, but proto-indo-iranians cremate. My theory – climatic changes. Indo-iranians are dealing with warm weather and harsher desert-like conditions. It’s easy for a corpse to come out in this condition and decay. Hence, cremate. This is not true for the hittites – they come from the northwest and are used to a much colder climate and hence uses the burial approach. Remember, these are 2 of the same people, but one comes from the south and the other from the northwest. Ties back to Indra again. They are both pastoral. They are going to go in search of new land where they can find water. It would be easier for both of them to cremate their dead – to avoid animals eating them, they don’t go back and visit the dead as they move off to another land etc. However, the climate from the northwest would have made it much harsher to cremate the dead. First, they have to find enough firewood to burn in colder climates and it’s a pain in the butt. Easier solution is to bury. In proto-indo-iranian culture, wood is ready to burn at any time and the climate and condition makes it tough to bury. Hence, cremate.
3. Rig Veda date – around 1400BC. By 1700BC indo-iranians are in contest with the hurrians. My guess is that it would have taken them 300 years for the split faction to cross over into IVC region. The same 300 years it took them to come to the indo-iranian region after the hittites established themselves over anatolian civilization from the northwest. I guess it could be anywhere between 1600 – 1400 BC.
Interestingly, Ramayana is dated around 1400BC. Who is the predecessor to Rama – Parasurama, right!. He is seen carrying the axe – the same labrys that’s depicted in knossos as a symbol that protects the carrier from being “killed” http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knossos Knossos gets burnt, lanka gets burnt. Knossos is built from 1700 – 1400 and has the labrys everywhere. Rama’s predecessor (parasurama) has the labrys as his symbol. The plot just thickens
Also, Illuyanka is the Serpentine dragon that’s associated with “Indrajit” (son of Ravana). Is that why Lanka got the name that it did (in tamil, it’s still called illankai). Interestingly, the same dragon snake rears itself in Krishna avataram as “kaalinga” – sounds close to illuyanka.
Thanks for sharing this with us Sukumar.
Sukumar,
Regarding your comment
http://www.sastwingees.org/2008/03/01/the-real-history-of-india-part-7-chariots-horses-and-thunderbolts/#comment-2413
I am eagerly waiting your break-down of Maraa and Rama. As we know IVC practiced fertility culture and the sacred tree was important to them (tree = maraa), Rama would be the reverse of the tree (worshiping a god vs. worshiping a tree)
Thanks Sreedhar. Your comment deserves to be a separate post. Very interesting.
1. Very interesting. [Maybe i am misunderstanding this] from your citation it appears there was a cyclical event around 2000 BC in the Atlantic. Are you saying this might have caused a famine in the Northern kazakhstan area?
2. This is brilliant. explains why the proto-greek faction didn’t think that highly about horses. I never thought about it in this direction. Well done.
3. You are right. Also the Hindukush acts as a barrier between the IVC and Afghanistan. Yeah, they must have crossed over using the Khyber pass but it would not have been as easy as crossing over if there were no mountains.
4/5. Interesting. I am also thinking the same, but as you say if it is easy to cross the flat lands and reach Iran and Afghanistan, why did they do it 300 years later? Yes, Hurrians are a lot closer, but Anatolia where the Hittites surfaced would have been as far away as Iran/Afghanistan?
6. Yes, i think it is the near simultaneous attack on the supply chain that killed it. Of this the attack on Crete would have really cut off the the key item Tin. The thing that is not clear to me is that Sumer of that time was UrIII in the South and Hurrians in the North, and the South was attacked by Elamite-Babylonian and the North by the Mitanni. Now where was the supply chain headquarters in Sumer – North or South?
7. This is brilliant. I didn’t know about Mitra as the Mediator. Makes a lot of sense.
8/9. Tarhun and your later comment about Illuyunka is very interesting. We also have to bear in mind that the Serpent was a holy creature for the Neolithic people. Typically in conquests, what is holy for the conquered becomes the demon for the conquerors.
10. Brilliant. This makes a lot of sense as to why Thunder/Rain has different importance for the 2 peoples.
11. Interesting possibility. We need to understand the etymology of Maaligai for this. Maybe Meenaks can help?
Now to your answers:
1. Correct it is my hypothesis that Knossos first burning in 1700 BC was at the hands of the Hittites.
2. Brilliant. Yes, this makes a lot of sense to explain the differences in burial customs. It may also be that burial is the preferred way for most people across the world across time. It is the Indo-Iranians who were possibly the first to come up with a major departure from that and that may be due to the reasons you give.
3. Possibly. however you are making an assumption that the Mitanni faction is the one that moved east after conquering Hurrians. It may also be that the Indo-Iranian faction made the descent into the Afghanistan around the same time or maybe even 2000 BC and then settled in Afghanistan, conquered the local Daha/Dahyu (neolithic people). Around 1700 BC they have a fight (could this be the battle of the Ten Kings in the RV?) and the Avestan faction goes East to Iran or stays put in Afghanistan, the Aryans cross over the Khyber Pass and reach IVC. Does this make sense? That might put the date of RV to 2000-1700 BC.
4. Interesting tie to the Ilankai name and the Serpent demon and Knossos and Labrys and Parasurama. please see my response above about serpents in general. Where did you see the tie between Illuyanka and Indrajit?
Sreedhar,
The tree=maram as another reverse of Rama is very interesting. The way i had done my interpretation is based on the fact that Rama is pronounced as Raamaa which is an exact reverse of Maaraa. Since Maram is also holy maybe it is a 2 birds with one stone type of thing also.
wow..wonderful discussion going on here. Sridhar, like Sukumar commented, yours deserve separate post. Most of them are very logical. Thanks for putting so much on this. I have to now take few printouts of the maps and draw lines…
Vamsi
Sukumar,
I cited the cyclic event around 2000BC because every 2500 years, there’s a mini ice age. So, that means around 2000BC would have been a mini ice age in northern europe. Now, northern kazakstan would have moved out of there before people in southern kazakstan. That’s why I assumed that the northern kazaks moved out of there prior to 2000 BC (before it became unbearable) and moved through ukraine to hittite.
Now, in the south of kazaks, it would have gotten colder later. Hence, there’s a possibility that they moved out later than the northerners.
It’s possible that indo-iranians moved to afghanistan before 2000bc and moved to IVC between 2000 and 1700bc. The same atlantic cycle could have made the northwest afghan region uninhabitable.
About indrajit and the serpent – check out the Indra reference http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indra
“He is repeatedly humiliated by demonic kings like Ravana of Lanka, whose son Indrajit (whose name means victor over Indra) bound Indra in serpent nooses and dragged him across Lanka in a humiliating display. Indrajit released Indra when Brahma convinced him to do so in exchange for celestial weapons, but Indra, as the defeated, had to pay tribute and accept Ravana’s supremacy. Indra realized the consequences of his sin, and was later avenged by the Avatara of Vishnu, Rama, who slew Ravana to deliver the three worlds from evil, as described in the epic Ramayana.”
NK – Very insightful & well-researched comment.
1. The Avesta says that people moved from their home-land in 3 waves because of land shortage. This makes no sense till you consider that the Proto-Indo-Europeans were pastoral. They would have needed huge swathes of land for their cattle. Central Asia is an arid land anyway. Perhaps over-grazing had denuded the soil of whatever fertility it had.
4 & 5. I wonder how the Indo-Europeans moved to the Baltic states? Some of the oldest Proto-Indo-European words are still found in Lithuania, for e.g.
Interestingly enough, I found that the most important rivers draining into the Black/Azov Sea – Dnieper, Dniester, Don, Donets & Danube – are all Indo-Iranian names. I used to wonder as a child why all these Black Sea rivers had “Dna” as the 1st syllable. Turns out “Dana” or “Danu” is Old Iranian for “River”. So, the (Slavic??) people there spoke a language that was closer to Iranian than to other Indo-European languages?? I wonder why! “Dara” was the Proto-Indo-European word for “River”. Sukumar pointed out that “Amu Darya” & “Syr Darya” probably mean “Amu River” & “Syr River”.
10. Regarding the rains being bad, I think they wouldn’t have had much rains in the warmer months at all. The Kazakh steppes, Afghanistan, large swathes of Iran, Tajikistan & Uzbekistan – are either arid or semi-arid lands. They were more familiar with snow & sleet than rain showers, I think. No wonder they hated it.
I think the Zoroastrians hated Devas because they had fought with the Aryans. In most Indo-European cultures, the root word “Dei” means God or God-like. Still.
Regarding burial VS cremation:
I agree that if the land is arid, burial is a good option. And in tropical, humid countries, the bodies start rotting. Iran & Afghanistan get very cold in winter, so they are not exactly warm countries like India. I would think they get as cold or colder than Turkey. I think the Aryans started cremating in the Swat region first. And then, they abandoned burials altogether, perhaps as you say when wood became plentiful in the Gangetic plains.
The Zoroastrians want the animals to eat the dead bodies. To them, once the soul has departed, the body is not important. The Aryans perhaps wanted to differentiate themselves from the local people & the Zoroastrians by modifying their funereal customs.
Priya,
The iranian names for black sea river is very intriguing. Are you suggesting that the kazaks came around the caspian sea instead of around the black sea into anatolian region (hittites)? I can see that happening, but that doesn’t explain why they moved towards baltic . On the other hand if we assume that they came around the caspian sea, then, it doesn’t fit the iranian names for the rivers in black sea. Hmmm! intriguing isn’t it.
I can see the indo-european language in lithuania through the kazaks move through ukraine, but that’s only trying to beat up my black sea theory
NK – The Hittites would have moved much earlier to Turkey.
I think from Iran, some Indo-Europeans split into Scythians & Sarmatians moved into the Balkans, Urals (to Ukraine?) & the Baltic. The rivers got their names from Old Iranian, which suggests a movement from Iran to Eastern Europe.
Fascinating really. But that must have been a later migration from Iran. But, why did they move from Iran? I wonder.
Priya,
What your timeline on when this movement happened from iran to eastern europe?
Priya,
Reading up on scythians and sarmatians, it looks as though they are from 1000bc which is much later. I don’t know why iranians moved into the baltic region either.
NK – Was it 1000 BC – then that’s a few centuries too late. Don’t know, some people had twitchy legs & kept moving I guess.
Darya is still used in Hindi was a sea or an ocean…now Amu darya has a huge basin hence people may have felt it was sea or a may very large body hence it was probably called Amu Darya
The meaning for மாளிகை is like this:
மாளிகை = மாடமுள்ள உயர்ந்த வீடு (a house with a sort of upper balcony)
In which case it is strikingly similar to Sukumar’s earlier interpretation for meluhha. The root for மாளிகை seems to be மள் or மள்ளம்(ல்) which means வலிமை. Thus it could also mean a fortified house with a balcony, which also ties with Sukumar’s interpretation.
I am astonished..!!
Meenaks,
Thanks for corroborating my theory on maligai. Most of my theories are off the ledge anyway – glad this one panned out close. As Jodie Foster says “One down, a few billion to go”.
Thanks Vamsi.
Sreedhar,
Thanks. It will be hard to use a mini ice age happening in the Atlantic to explain events in kazakhstan. We need to dig deeper on this if we have to prove a climatic condition. I am not saying there is no possibility of an adverse climatic condition. It is just that the origin of the event has to be closer to the Pontic Steppe area for the theory to work. Hope you agree?
The Indrajit and Serpent is very interesting.
Priya,
Thanks for the Avesta references. Those are very interesting, clearly proving that the migration was deliberate and was motivated by a problem – lack of space – which could mean lack of grazing territory. If they had goats which is very likely, the goats may have stripped the land bare and because they were not agriculturists they may not have known how to recharge the land to make it fertile. I don’t know enough about animals to know if Horses and other cattle can also denude the soil like Goats can. Need to investigate that.
Interesting find on the Dhanu=river concept.
As for burial customs – the Indo Iranians already had cremation which is by itself unique enough. Now i believe Avestans who did the Sky Burial or offering their dead to the birds and animals is another unique practice. Given that they also mentioned that cremation was a sin per Rupika’s citations above, it is Zoroastrians who tried to create a unique identity for themselves. Both Mitanni and Aryans retained their original cremation custom which is unique to the Proto-Indo-Iranian arm of the PIE.
Hope that helps.
Sreedhar/Priya,
Very interesting discussion on the northward movement of the Iranians. It is definitely not what i would have expected. The fact that it occurs as early as 1000 BC makes it even more interesting. This is why forming theories about the past is so hard.
Karthik,
I think Dharya is a morph of Dhara. Dhara means stream even today in Hindi and Sanskrit. The fact that Amu Darya ends in a basin maybe a coincidence. I didn’t know Darya means ocean or sea in today’s Hindi/Sanskrit – can you please cite an usage in a sentence?
Meenaks,
Thanks for the etymology of Maaligai. makes a lot of sense. BTW, small correction. Meluhha=Melagam is Parpola’s interpretation.
Sreedhar,
good job man. Engeyo Poiteengo.
Sukumar,
I am not so sure if we have deviated so much from the Avestans ( http://www.sastwingees.org/2008/03/01/the-real-history-of-india-part-7-chariots-horses-and-thunderbolts/#comment-2430 )
I just remembered this – I am sure you’re aware of “Thevasam” – paying homage to the dead each year. in my sub-sect, after the thevasam is done, before anyone eats, the food is offered to the birds. My grandpa used to leave the food on top of the “well pulley hangar (kiraru)” or on top of the sunshade. When I asked him why (a couple of zillion times), he used to say that’s how it’s done. Doesn’t this sound similar to offering the dead to the birds and leaving it on top of a mountain?
Also, a portion of the food is put in a banana leaf and I used to dig up the ground and my thatha used to put the leaf and the food inside the ground. Did we practice (aryans) burial before we adopted cremation and is that why we offer a portion of the food every year and bury it for the dead?
If we are so much about cremation, why not burn the food as well, why offer it to the birds and why bury it?
Sukumar,
Will do more research on climatic changes or terrestrial changes in the region.
Sreedhar,
Interesting. Priya had mentioned that the Avestans also had the Divasam concept – they called Rojgar. Whether the event included offerings to birds is not clear. we need to investigate.
yeah i remember the burial of the food also. my family also did that.
We do burn food also by offering it to Agni. This is called Havis. I am sure you have seen that.
BTW, divergence of the Avestans is merely symbolic because they kept the language, most of the Gods and switched a few things like burial custom, switched Asura and Deva designations, reduced the importance of Indra etc.
On the research front, do you have any pointers? One idea Priya and I were discussing is to check for climatic events originating in the Arctic and by extension in Siberia. Not sure if we still can use that to explain migrations in kazakhstan. the other is to check for earthquakes, volcanoes etc. We can also investigate the denudation of the soil by excessive grazing that i mentioned above. This is another thing that is a bit unlikely given the vastness of the steppes. But maybe worth looking into.
Sukumar,
I was going to start looking at the west and south of Ural mountains. I wasn’t going to look at east of the ural mountains primarily because they seem to have stayed and survived indigenously and didn’t incorporate any of the other cultures that we see today in proto-indo-greek or proto-indo-iranian.
West of ural mountains, people had domesticated horse, cattle and sheep (horse from around 4400BC – in ukraine). As Pastorals, they would have liked the mountains to feed their animals and be able to sit and watch them ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pastoral ). I think we should start around the west ural mountains area (south russia and north kazakhstan).
Yes, arctic is a good place to start, but like you said it might not impact kazakhstan. I am wondering if something happened around the ural mountains that made them move. Remember, horse was there in ukraine and western europe already (for nearly 2000 years). So, earthquake, volcanoes are great pointers too.
My my theory is right (!!!), there were 2 sets of movement – from the west of the ural through ukraine etc and from the south of ural through kazakhstan down south. My theory is that the west movement started much earlier than the south of ural movement.
I am going to start with analyzing the ural mountains and terrestrial and geological changes that happened to it around 2500BC.
Meenaks,
Can you also investigate the the etymology of the tamil word “Ural” – “the stone used to pound grains with husk”
Sreedhar,
Those are great pointers. Please let me know what you find. In my view we have to have watertight models of what happened with the PIE people and the IVC people to go anyplace certain with this.
Let me take a crack at Ural before Meenaks the expert speaks.
Ural is a derivative of Urai + Kal. Urai is to grind something down. Kal is stone of course.
BTW, what’s the connection? Are you thinking that Ural mountain is a Tamil word?
I am having a brain fart Sukumar
I saw this while reading up on Ural mountains ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ural_Mountains )
“The Urals were named after the Uralian tribe that was once native to the northern region of Asia. The Uralians were hunter-gatherers; however the lack of plentiful resources in the area forced them to relocate, spreading throughout the Asian region. According to another explanation, the word Ural is of Turkic origin and means a stone belt”
The turkic origin was what sparked the thought. I also saw that one of the longest river flowing from the Ural is “Kama” river and it has “Ik” and “Izh” as it’s tributaries and it flows northwest of Ural mountains. Kama river starts at Udmurtia (sounds like Udayamoorty) on the western side of Ural. Seeing the name Kama, ik, izh and Udmurtia, my brain made the leap.
I remember the urai kal now from 9th grade. Yep, too bad. However, I think there’s too much coincidence with Ural, kama, ik, izh, and Udmurtia
Sukumar,
Now, the plot thickens. Check this out – Udmurt where Kama begins is made up of 30% local minorities.
“and there are Mari and Tatar minorities. The Udmurts, representing the eastern branch of the Finno-Ugrian nationalities, are related to the Mari and the Komi. They are known for their embroidery, weaving, and wood carving. Some Udmurts are Orthodox Christians; others belong to an ancestor-worshiping cult.”
Don’t you think there’s too much coincidence here? (name of Mari)
Oops. Forgot to put the reference from Encyclopedia – http://www.encyclopedia.com/doc/1E1-UdmurtRe.html
Very interesting find Sreedhar. You may be onto something. Please read my latest post on Parpola’s lecture. He mentioned that the Indus Script was seen as far away as Turkmenistan. Highly likely they were part of the trading hub of the IVC. This also adds credence to my hypothesis that Dasa/Dasyu or Daha/Dahyu is a generic name for the mother goddess worshippers. This means the Indo-Iranians would have encountered the Dasas even before they descended into the Afghan plateau via Turkmenistan/Tajikistan etc. What do you think?
//Ural is a derivative of Urai + Kal. Urai is to grind something down. Kal is stone of course. //
Sukumar, I don’t think urai means to grind something down. That must be “arai” (அரைப்பது).
urai means rubbing or creating friction by rubbing. A suitable Tamil equivalent is தேய்ப்பது. That is why when we use the “urai kal” for judging whether a jewel is made out of gold or not, we only rub it against that stone.
The root for ural seems to be uram (உரம்). uram means strength (eg. நெஞ்சில் உரம் கொண்டவன்.) So ural may be meant in the sense that it is the strong base on which we can put the thing we need to grind and then grind it. (ural is usually constructed using stone or wood).
It is also interesting to note that we have similar sounding equivalent word in other dravidian languages – [Telugu - rōlu, Kannada - oralu, Mal - ural, Tulu - oral.] (from University of Madras Tamil lexicon)
Also, the ural alone cannot be used to grind anything. we need the ulakkai which is the pole used to grind stuff. உலக்கை = உரல் + கை, i.e., it is the கை for the உரல்.
I saw some references about presence of ural type structures adjacent to “granaries” in IVC. Do you have any theories on those?
That is brilliant Meenaks. i am sure you are right. Wouldn’t Urram (with Vallina Ra) meaning manure also mean give strength. We also have kallural and maraural for wooden and stone urals. Ulakkai is actually a beautiful derivation. well done.
I don’t have any theories on urals next to granaries at this time.
Sukumar, manure is also represented as uram /உரம் (with idaiyina ra) rather than vallina Ra. Basically using uram or manure is only to strengthen the land, which fits with the etymology.
With respect to Ural mountains, will it make sense to investigate the shape of the mountain range, to see whether it resembles some kind of ural?
I was going through the archives of Wordsmith “A Word A Day”, a popular word mailing list.
http://wordsmith.org/awad/archives/0807
About the word for Aug 29 2007 – malacia – I found the following explanation:
malacia (mu-LA-shuh, -shee-uh) noun
1. An abnormal craving for spiced food.
2. Softening of the organ or tissue.
[From Greek malakia (softness), ultimately from the Indo-European root
mel- (soft) which also gave us malacology (study of mollusks), malt,
melt, and mulch.]
Here, it is stated that the root word “mel” in the Indo-European language group means “soft”. This is directly opposite to the root word மள் (which I had suggested for மாளிகை) which means strong.
Is there something here that is worth investing further? I am not exactly clear what is meant by “Indo-European”, so I need your thoughts on this.
Thanks Meenaks for the catch. i agree i made a mistake on uram.
Indo European is a place holder for the language that is the parent language of the Indo European family of languages like Sanskrit, Greek etc.
i don’t think we should even be thinking Indo European for the IVC because the Aryans came to the IVC only around 1700 BC and teh script dates from 3200 BC or 2500 BC depending on who you are listening to.
While the Mel=soft derivation is interesting it is not relevant for the IVC script decipherment.
Meenaks,
This is brilliant, f…ing brilliant. This is in response to your comment http://www.sastwingees.org/2008/03/01/the-real-history-of-india-part-7-chariots-horses-and-thunderbolts/#comment-2495
The shape of Ural mountains – now, isn’t that a giant leap! I love your thought process on this.
The ural is shaped like a U with a handle. The analysis behind it (I am looking for the geologists that did the research on this and published the paper – I didn’t bookmark it) is that the middle of the Ural mountains had a crater impact and the mountains couldn’t form in a straight line due to this.
So, the mountain took a u-turn towards the east before it straightened out again in the lower part of the mountain range. The mountain range is that’s why divided into 3 parts.
Sukumar – In IVC, think about the U with the hand inside it symbols – even included in M-314 and it belongs to ‘agriculture’ group
I found the research paper again
http://www.planetary.brown.edu/planetary/international/Micro_38_Abs/ms011.pdf
Interesting Sreedhar and Meenaks. I looked at the research paper, but i could not make out the U and the handle?
Meenaks,
If you want to look at what could be a “ural” with a hand (kai) in it, see
http://www.safarmer.com/fsw2.pdf – page 12 – the seal is M-314 and look at the 2nd row 2nd symbol from the right after the “cut” symbol.
Sukumar,
This need not be true – so, take it with a pinch of salt. The middle ural is a semi-circle ring structure. It looks like the shape of a U only tilted 270 degrees (east-west U instead of north-south U). There is little or no vegetation on the west side of the Ural because of the meteor impact. In the picture, the pink lines are the mountain range
Sridhar, thanks for pointing out the ural with hand symbol in the IVC seal. It is very similar to the ural and ulakkai combination used now.
About the shape of the Ural mountain range, it is very interesting.
Sukumar,
Its very interesting to read about tracing back to domestication of horses. Horses has been one of the key archealogical cum cultural evidences in support of AIT theory.
Is there any findings of taming of elephants.. Its interesting to note that, the alexandrian army retreated on fearing 6000 elephant fleets of chandragupta maurya.
So, is there any time line for domestication of elephants?
I learned in this post, that there was around 2000 years b/w taming of horse and tying them to chariots… how long could it have taken, for taming of elephants, and mastering the skills to use it for wars?
Senthil,
Thanks. You are talking about elephants being used in the war with Alexander and the greeks which happened in 326 BC or so. Whereas the discussion is about what happened in 1700 BC and prior to that. Elephants find a mention in the IVC seals, so they have been known from atleast 3000 BC. It is not clear whether they were tamed or not. In any case, IVC people did not fight wars because they were a non-militaristic culture.
Additionally, Alexander was not defeated. The best someone did was Purushottam Porus who fought a valiant battle and lost. Alexander was impressed by his valour and gave his kingdom back. Alexander retreated because his army was tired of the long trip from their home and wanted to go back.
An alternate theory was also proposed.. that alexander had initially gained in the battle of hydapses, later, when porus introduced his elephant fleet numering around 1500, it created havoc among macedonian army lines. Although they have won the war, the army refused to march forward, because of the fact that they have cross a large river and then face the mauryan army which consisted of 6000 elephants.. the sheer number, that frightened the macedonian army..
Later, chandragupta maurya, overthrow the greek governors and re-captured the terrirory..
Clearly, the elephant fleet was unique of Indian kingdoms..
There was another event, when alexander attempted war with Nubia, he faced a brilliant formation of army, with elephant fleet that he did not fight them..
Also, it was said, that Indian elephant fleet was far superior than those of african elephants,..
History has never been told from our perspective..
Senthil,
“History has never been told from our perspective” – I agree with you completely. Unfortunately, people think that History has to be told as it happened, from truth’s perspective. I don’t see why they are not looking at it from India’s perspective. Why can’t they be a little lenient, right! We’ll write to them, and I am sure in time, they’ll see it from “our” perspective.
You must be very old Senthil – you seem to have lived during Alexander period and you seem to know what the army feared and what they thought.
I am sure at some point you are going to enlighten us about where you’re going with your elephant theories, right! Is it another round-about way of pre-dating Rig Veda? Come on! you can be open with us
Senthil,
Again for the Nth time, what is the relevance of Elephants in the Battle of Hadapses and the IVC? IVC’s dissappearance predates that event by more than 1200 years. Your view of how Porus and Alexander’s battle is not based on history. In any case, whatever distorted view you hold of Alexander has nothing to do with the IVC.
IVC has no mention of horses, spoked wheels and chariots. We have found over 5000 inscribed objects and not a single one shows a horse or a chariot. But the RV Concordance shows (i have given this data in my AIT post) that horses and chariots were very very important.
BTW, i noticed another major historical error in your previous comment. Chandragupta Maurya attained the throne in 320 BC a few years after Alexander left India. So Alexander’s army could not have retreated in fear of Chandragupta Maurya. The king that was ruling Magadha during Alexander’s time was Dhana Nanda – a supposed despot not liked by the Magadha people. This is the king’s army who you say Alexander’s army was afraid of. That is the historical joke of the millennium if you consider the fact that Dhana Nanda was killed by Chandragupta only a few years later with nothing but a few men with him. What were the great army/military/elephants of Dhana Nanda doing when Chandragupta took over the kingdom by deposing Dhana Nanda? A guy who couldn’t even protect his life was going to fight Alexander’s army that is humankind’s most successful army? In fact, Chandragupta is supposed to have said that Alexander missed a historic opportuniy to annexe Magadha because the people of Magadha were very unhappy under Dhana Nanda and the people themselves would have supported Alexander.
Maybe Chandragupta was also in on the western conspiracy to defame India.
Sukumar,
I think i am misunderstood.. First is i dont contradict your point “IVC did not have horse seals”.. i accept that.. But, this gave me this elephant clue..
I did not say, alexander invaded IVC.. I just mentioned to emphasise, that porus maintained such large army in the area that falls in the region of present day IVC maps.
What i was proposing is the preceding time line , that would have taken for such large elephant fleet to have evolved. Considering chariots have evolved after more than 1500 years of taming horses, such a similar time line should have existed for taming elephants and using them in war..
The connection b/w IVC elephant seals, and the possibility of evolving of elephant fleet could not be ignored.. the link b/w IVC and the first recorded later day history (ie, porus of 4th century) of the region is missing..
I would like to raise this point with all concerned historians, from both the camps.. like parpola, Rajaram, Farmer etc.
————————————————————–
It was Nanda’s army of 6000 elephants, and NOT chandragupta maurya… It was my mistake…
I feel, the history of how Chandragupta maurya won Dhana Nanda , is different from what you have said.
As per the following wikipedia link, Chandragupta first defeated Macedonian Satrapies, and then defeated Nanda in a war.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chandragupta_Maurya
And about the NANDA dynasty, the following link gives, some picture.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nanda_Dynasty
“As for the Macedonians, however, their struggle with Porus blunted their courage and stayed their further advance into India. For having had all they could do to repulse an enemy who mustered only twenty thousand infantry and two thousand horse, they violently opposed Alexander when he insisted on crossing the river Ganges also, the width of which, as they learned, was thirty-two furlongs, its depth a hundred fathoms, while its banks on the further side were covered with multitudes of men-at-arms and horsemen and elephants. For they were told that the kings of the Ganderites and Praesii were awaiting them with eighty thousand horsemen, two hundred thousand footmen, eight thousand chariots, and six thousand fighting elephants.”
Refernce: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/ptext?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0243&layout=&loc=62.1
Senthil,
1. Elephants are present in IVC Seals. Yes, but that is not evidence of taming of the elephant. If there is any evidence of that, i would like to see it. For instance, Rhino is also present in the IVC seals, we can’t take that as evidence of Rhino being domesticated. Rhinos are yet to be domesticated, even 5000 years after its mention.
2. Even if tamed Elephants were available to the IVC, they did not use it in war. If you can find evidence of that, please post the same.
3. Even if Elephants were used by the IVC in the war against Aryans (if you read my post, you will know that there is no evidence of a large scale war with the Aryans), what does that prove? Unless i am missing something?
4. You don’t need to raise any point to historians. There is plenty of evidence available for you to do research and find out for yourself. I will urge you to do some reading on your own on this elephant theory and do a post.
5. Thanks. I am glad you agree it was Dhana Nanda’s army.
6. You are misinterpreting the Wikipedia entry. The mention about defeat of the satrapies Chandragupta did only after attaining the throne of Magadha in 320 BC. He could not have before that because he did not have a large army. The Satrapies were formed only after Alexander left in 326 BC. You need to read some more about Chandragupta and Chanakya. From what i know, they used cunning and subterfuge to infiltrate the Dhana Nanda inner circle and Chandragupta killed Dhana Nanda and took the throne. He could not have defeated Dhana Nanda in battle because of the large Nanda army which you say even Alexander was afraid of.
7. I have read that Perseus reference before. I think those statements are accurate. But what is also mentioned which you conveniently ignore is that Alexander’s army waged many many successful battles and conquered territory including Porus. The army was also very tired. Right there in the perseus quote, you see he mentions about the wide rivers they will have to cross. So it is a combination of multiple factors. To give you some perspective, Alexander’s army is one of the greatest the world has seen in the ancient world. He defeated the Persian army on the way which was as big as the Nanda army if not bigger. Therefore, to say, that Alexander was afraid of Nanda’s army is not an accurate intrepretation of history.
Please read up some more on these subjects. Interestingly, i don’t see you even 1/100th as vigorosly arguing about even one single point from the body of my post. But you show extraordinary vigor in arguing some points that are not the subject matter of my posts. The timeline in my series is still in 1700 BC. But you are arguing points about 326 BC.
Hi Sukumar,
I regularly read your Blog on “The Real History of India”, excellent write-ups.
I came across the below Websites about Human Journey. In these Websites, I find the description of the human journey a bit different from the descriptions in National Geographic Human Journey. In addition, to that there are information about “Rock Art” in India.
The rock art described here talks about warring scene with elephants and horses but there are no specific dates given against the art.
http://www.bradshawfoundation.com/journey/ –> about human journey
http://www.bradshawfoundation.com/india/gallery26.html –> elephants
http://www.bradshawfoundation.com/india/gallery16.html –> horse
Regards
Kumaresan
Kumaresan,
Thanks for your kind words. I did come across the bradshaw foundation in my research. I believe that the National Geographic research is more advanced and possibly scientifically more accurate. I am not an expert on Genography but i beieve NG’s methodology is better.
The fact that horses are seen in the paleolithic rock art in India is fairly well known. If you goto Bhimbhetka, you can see these (i am yet to go here myself, but is on my to do list). From what i know the Bhimbhetka rock art is close to 40,000 years old. If you read the first post in this series the Gond-Aboriginal connection, i have posted a map from NG site which shows people entering India coming into the Bhimbhetka area 40,000 years ago.
However, having native horses is one thing and taming them and training them to pull chariots is completely another. For us to prove that the Indus valley civilization used horses and chariots is going to be nearly impossible because there is not a single seal bearing the image of a horse, no evidence of a chariot and no evidence for a spoked wheel. With these 3 impossibilities to overcome, proving that the IVC is Vedic is also impossible.
Hope that helps?
I got it. Thanks for your reply Sukumar…
Sukumar,
I went through those links, and i feel, i have a case here..
The following photos shows, that warriors riding on horses.
http://www.bradshawfoundation.com/india/gallery16.html
http://www.bradshawfoundation.com/india/gallery23.html
Warring scene involving Elephants and Horses..
http://www.bradshawfoundation.com/india/gallery26.html
As per your earlier comment, these rock arts date back to 40,000 years.. so these paintings must predate IVC & other civilizations.. Again the question rises.. how come when horses appear on north and southo of IVC sites but not in IVC area..
There is another question.. there is no seals in IVC depicting cows.. can we conclude there is no cow in IVC, as per your logic? (i think i have asked the same question, but no answer)
Senthil,
Please read my comment above again. The RV talks about horses and chariots. We need to place these in the IVC before the arrival of the Aryans to prove that horses and chariots are indigenous. I am sure you know that horses and chariots are not the only issue in front of us – genealogical, linguistic, archaeological evidences also have to line up for Aryans to be indigenous and those are not available and unlikely to be available ever.
you are right, just because something is not in the seals, we can’t conclude that it was not there at all. The only thing is (and i showed this using the concordance map for the RV) horses and chariots were critically important to the RV people and one would expect a few seals atleast to bear witness to that level of critical importance.
As for the cow, i guess this is one more instance of you not reading my posts. Please read my interpretation of the unicorn seal. I have concluded that the unicorn seal is the cow.
And another thing, going by your logic, why is it that we don’t find the IVC cities anywhere else other than the Indus valley? there are plenty of rivers like the Ganges, Brahmaputra, cauvery, Yamuna, Godavari etc. Then how come the cities are not there?
Any evidence that you find has to tie in with the larger picture and fit in with the other evidences. Horses found in the Bhimbhetka area (it is not even clear that those are horses, they could be onagers also) from a 40,000 year old picture, by itself, does not prove or disprove anything about horses in the IVC.
Hope that helps.
The Absence of the horse andchariot
at the Indus Civilization.
Hi, I’m new here and for sometime I
have been following the argument for
case of horses and chariots at the
Indus. I make the following arguments
on the above subject for your
consideration.
1) There are no pictographic images
at the Indus in its society for the horse
chariot.
2) All the animals of the Indus are
depicted on Indus art except these
two.
3)It is plain to see despite what the
scholars say and write that all the
animals of the Indus are known by
the people and thus integrated in
society.
4) The Vedic form of horse and
warrior chariot do not form the
integrated society of the people.
5) Had the horse and chariot
been present at the Indus cities
they would have been depicted
in the scripts and art.
6) Especially the painted form art
would have been on display as in
Egypt.
7)The scripts and other writings of
the Indus carry no such mention of
horse and chariot.
8)The people of the Indus left no
illustration that they interacted with
the horse and chariot such as going
to war or simply travelling in a
chariot or riding a horse.
9) There are no evidence of horse
breeding or horse trading recorded
in the cities among the population, this des
despite the fine art of keeping of
records, scripts, math computation and
other skills of the Indus people.
10) The Indus people traded every-
thing under the sun but there is
conspicuously an absence of horse
trade.
11)There is a lack of evidence of
integration of the horse and chariot
in the Indus. There is no pictorial
art, writing, images, pottery, wall
paintings or drawings that the horse
and chariot were known by its
inhabitants.
12) Vedic customs and lifestyle are
different from the lifestyles of the
Indus people. The horse, chariot and
cremation are fully integrated in the
religion and rituals of the Aryans.
13) The Indus civilization lack this
lifestyle and ritual. The Aryans are
pastoral whilst the Indus were urban
and sedentary people and culture.
14) Finally, humans in whatever
society have some remembrance of
those who died, Our images are
preserved in photographs, writings,
records and other art forms, as
a testament that we were living
creatures in past years, even
thousands of years. The cavemen
preserved their art to show that
these animals did exist sometime
in their lifetime. When humans die
we are also preserved to show that
we did exist. This did not happen
in the case of the horse and chariot
at the Indus. Why? Simply, because
a) they were overrun by Vedic
warriors b)Their civilization crumbled
before the Aryans intruded upon them
c) Their cities were deserted by some
natural castrophe such as drying
rivers, erosion of the land to desert.
I would be grateful for some feedback
and criticism for this.
Thanks for letting me become a member of your forum and I like the democratic way of how your viewers and writers are respectful of the views of others. Thanks again
Ramdeholl.. it has to be noted that only 2% of the total indus areas has been discovered.. so more evidences could be dug out.. when comparing with the amount of effort put on egytian pyramids, its very minute of effort put on indus valley..
Recently discovery channel ran a documentary on indus and they said, it was the largest civilization of its times, and due to monsoon pattern changes, the population migrated to gangetic plains.. (could not find the relevant link in its site..)
Sukumar,
This is in reply to your following comment..
http://www.sastwingees.org/2008/03/01/the-real-history-of-india-part-7-chariots-horses-and-thunderbolts/#comment-2907
I am not arriving at any conclusion on that seals.. i was looking for how come that art work 12,000 years old could have come there..
I have not heard of onagers being used in wars..
Considering Unocorn as cow could be interpretation.. intepretation differs from people to people.. again the question arrives.. how come people depicting elephants correctly could not do cows exactly..
Also, if we find the purpose of the seals, we could find out why particular animals is left..
Next, we have so much of the cities recorded in history but could not be traced now.. for example, greek travellers describe the city of magadha as most beautiful.. but we dont find historic magadha now..
Also, in recent history, the city of agra had a large number of palaces along the river yamuna.. we also dont find that..
Next, can it be that subsequent advancement in architectures in other parts of india be attributed to the IVC migration?
Neville,
Thanks for stopping by. You are right. Indus did not have horses and chariots. However points you make about Indus writing not referring to chariots is inaccurate because Indus writing is undeciphered. I am sure you know that.
BTW, it does not look like you actually read my posts because my whole argument is based on the idea that Aryans came from outside and Aryanized the Indus people.
Senthil,
A significant corpus of Indus material exists. If horses and chariots were important to the Indus, we should have seen some seals. Please also read my post on the RV which shows why the RV could not have been written by the Indus people. It is not based on just chariots and horses alone. Of course, as always, you keep commenting without actually reading the subject matter of the posts.
Senthil,
This is a response to your http://www.sastwingees.org/2008/03/01/the-real-history-of-india-part-7-chariots-horses-and-thunderbolts/#comment-3256
Even if you can prove that Horses were there in Bhimbhetka, it is not relevant. The Bhimbhetka art is from 40,000 years ago and is not near the Indus. The only way you can prove that horses and chariots were used by Indus people is by finding artefacts in the Indus cities that proves that.
Onagers were the popular transport prior to the horses. There are several artwork from Sumeria which show onager driven carts. In any case, like i said horses in Bhimbhetka is irrelevant to Indus which is 37000 years later.
Again, you did not read my post on the unicorn seal. The cow has been depicted accurately. Please read the post. Every animal, plant represented in the Indus seals is extremely accurate. So your assertion of inaccurate depiction of cows is incorrect.
Cities get torn down and recontrsucted all the time. What does that prove? The fact is simple – we have not found chariots and horses in Indus. You can do one of 2 things – you can wait till chariots and horses are discovered in Indus or you can do your own excavations and find them. We can then have a discussion. Untill then a discussion about horses and chariots in the Indus Valley is going to be fruitless.
I didn’t understand your point about Indus architectures being found at a later time? Even if we assume that is the case, what does that prove?
Thanks sukumar.. i am not coming to any conclusion, till i get a clear picture of continuity of events.. (probably till that time, i may be disturbing you with my questions
)
I accept onagers were used for transport.. but i doubt it be used in wars..
Regarding unicorn, it represents the bull rather than cow.. i referred the net, and could not find the cow seal.. the unicorn is referred only as bull..
/** Even if you can prove that Horses were there in Bhimbhetka, it is not relevant. **/
I will accept your point on chariots and horses till evidence arrives.. but, this bhimbhetka fascinates me, because, if proved, it will make some key existing beliefs wrong, like “horses first used in central asia around 4000 BC” .. in that sense it may be relevant.. (I am not arguing for IVC’s horses and chariots..)
I am not attempting mysef to prove anything based on bhimbhetka.. but considering the pre-historic people lived in that area, i was wondering, how come they have seen horses with warriors… it has to be noted that chariots are NOT found in that paintings.. only horses..
Regarding the later day architectures, it may be an advancement of the IVC architectures brought by the migrated IVC people.. (I dont have proof on it.. but i am attempting to evolve a continuity of history..)..
1. I think we have gone over this before. Onagers whether they were used in wars (You need to dig into Sumeria for that) is not relevant to IVC. Also horses in Bhimbhetka is irrelevant.
2. Even if Bhimbhetka horses are real horses and the taming of the horses happened 40,000 years ago, it still has no relevance to the IVC. IVC did not use horses or chariots. You need to come up with evidence in the IVC for 3 things – horses, chariots and spoked wheels. When you have that evidence, we can discuss.
3. The fact that IVC architecture was used later proves that IVC people continue to live in India, which we know already to be true anyway. What is the use of your research, when we already know that IVC people were amalgamated and made subordinate by the Aryans. Is anyone saying IVC people dissappeared from the face of the planet? Are you even reading my posts?
Senthil,
Unicorn representing the Bull is a popular but incorrect view. For the last time, PLEASE read my interpretation on why you think my unicorn=cow interpretation is incorrect. The fact that many people think it is a bull is not evidence of it being a bull. That is now how science is done. Science is not a popularity contest.
The Indus Valley Civilization: Its Reality and Maddening Prevarications of Academia.
Ever since the discovery of the IVC, the rush to Aryanize its society and culture has filled books, papers,
media forums and other such articles and such entities has funded and encouraged historians and writers to
let loose their imaginations in order to rewrite the history of India. The fierce debate whether the IVC is
Aryan or not has opened up emotions and a stirring of nationalistic feelings among Indians of different social
and political persuasions and has led to the rewriting of some history books. Even though the undertaking
and exposing of the vast archaeological empire of the Indus still remains buried below the ground, opinions
and speculations still persist that further and more radical change be made to the history of India.
The proven point that the Aryans did not invade India and that horses existed in its society are two areas
juxtaposed between the migrationist theories and those who proposed an “Aryan India” Between this sliver
of Aryan and Indus woodwork, lies the heart of the matter, its linch-pin— the horse. Whoever can prove that
the horse existed at the Indus empire will cap a belated crowning glory and achieve at the same time a
kind of immortality in Indian history. The playing with historical dates like pushing them back further in time
sounds like Russian roulette in order to achieve the inevitable and if such a hand can be played and the
horse can be accommodated to form Indian history as among other things, thus far are historians are willing
to go. The claims of historians and other writers of horse remains has so far has not been proven or
recognized by some of local and international academia, even though such claims have been taken up by
readers of different sorts of books and articles. The horse have remained evasive to not only archaeologists
who would know one when they have analyzed its bones but to those who advocate its existence at the
Indus. The so called tentative discovery of horse bones in the cities of the Indus, is the one weakness of
those who want to weld Aryan history and Indus history together. This, I think will fail. The Indus civilization
does not have a mythology that speaks of the existence of horse and chariot. First of all, all peoples have
from their beginnings tales of mythology and from this, their civilizations are born, their society evolves, their
beliefs entrenched and their livelihood maintained. Without these a people may not survive as a strong entity
such like the Greeks and the Indian civilizations. Mythology is the fountain of a people, where a kind of fairy
tale comes down to generation after generation, where images of the mythology are graven in the minds of
its citizens and from which stories of daring and derring do are told. Greek mythology is filled with horses
such as Pegasus and Arion, so we know that the Greeks knew about horses, Helios, the Sun god and the
horses and also the Trojan horse. Our Hindu civilization also has a mythology of horses of the Sun, as well
as other places mentioned in the Vedas and the Swat culture is one of the first places that the horse
appeared in India. But can that be said of the Indus civilization? Where is the mythology of the horse and
chariot in its ancient belief system? The belligerent screaming and writing by academia of horse bones in
the Indus does not prove anything. There is not a shred of evidence of a horse culture or part of a
mythologic reference to a horse or chariot in the history of the writing of the Indus nor in its society and the
isolated claims of nationalistic writings has no foundation whatsoever. Claims of horse presence in the
absence of a mythology in comparison with Hindu or Greek is not only a failure, but a historical greed to
fulfill nationalistic grandeur for India which would be penitently false. I am sure Hindus would not like to
incorporate a false version of historical data in their proud history. I personally would abhor such a travesty.
Priya and Sukumar, I am delighted with your findings on the Aryan and their historical antecedents in the formation of Indian history. Be careful you are overthrowing the theories of Dr. Frawley and his band of revisionists. Anyhow , I am just submitting an article which I had submitted to them sometime ago. I don’t think they liked it! Enjoy.
Since I began writing on the controversial subject of the Aryans and against the notorious idea that the Indus is Aryan in nature, I have argued that the Indus Civilization could not possibly be what others have said it is, or that the Aryans are indigenous to India. I still believe as well as others that the Indus is uniquely Indian because of its originality and that the Aryans are an outside force who came and took over this civilization and land to establish their brand of civilization. So much has been written by Indians and foreigners and they spell the general idea that the Indus is Aryan but so far they have failed to decipher its scripts and seals which would give it some sort of identity, they have failed archaeologically to provide evidence that its material and artifacts unearthed are of Aryan origin and most important the inability to provide the evidence of the horse and chariot is monumental. Monumental, because it is the linchpin of Aryan domination of foreign lands and empires that they took by force. Without it, there would have been no intrusion of Indo-European peoples in India or anywhere else. I have been castigated, ridiculed, snubbed and rudely revoked impolitely about my past ideas on the nature of the Indus civilization. All of the above I do not mind, for such is human nature , but what I have written before is now all coming to pass and I will touch upon those things that I had predicted and written about the Indus. The reader must remember one thing in mind and that I had always maintained that the Aryans came from outside, from Central Asia, bringing their steppe life to India, not the other way around. Writing and believing are two different things but to convince historians and writers , especially those from India is a difficult task especially people like Mr. Talageri, Mr. Rajaram and others of the like mind set. These people , no doubt set out to do good, I hope intentionally, but somewhere along the line , they lost their logic and went haywire. They should have held to the maxim that no lost civilization should be identified until its language is properly deciphered so as to know who really built the civilization. Instead of doing or waiting for this result, a cacophony of voices and a deluge of literature descended on the media and other forms of information hailing the Indus as Aryan with their followers blistering anyone who deviates from this truth with bitter complaints that religious zealots , western propaganda and Muller and his henchmen are to be blamed for India’s misfortune for the so called invasion of India and its accompanying falsehoods and distortions. Complaints for the need for impartial historical evidence and literature are now emanating from these channels. Indeed it is. Russian, archaeologists, historians and writers are now discovering and have discovered the original homeland of India’s Aryans on the vast plains of the Russian steppes. At last, concrete evidence of the mysterious and enigmatic Indo-Europeans who intruded into Afghanistan, Iran and India are being unearthed in diverse places east of the Ural mountains as Sintashta for the identical type of chariot used in the Rgveda, in Androvono where identical ritual and sacrifices found in the pages of the Rgveda and most spectacular of all the lost Aryan homeland of Arkaim, the Swastika city.
. First of all let me salute the masterful builders of the Indus of whom I am very proud for showing the civilized world that Indians, in such a time and age created and built something far advanced and unequalled in their history. The Neolithic Age, I don’t think have seen anything like it in its existence. The discovery of the IVC has opened a Pandora’s Box of fierce debate and at the same time a clouded atmosphere of fear never before seen in the history of archaeology. Stranger still,those who employed the archaeologists to dig up this ancient civilization are patently working furiously behind their backs in undermining the very work they employed them to do. On one hand while the archaeologists are exposing the cities of the Indus without finding any evidence whatsoever of Aryan influence, the historians and writers are flooding the informational and international media with such evidence twisting and turning this evidence and trying to give it an Aryan foundation. For example,lets consider the crucial point of contention of the Indus– the horse. Although no evidence of the horse has not been found in the Indus and despite the fraudalent attempt to prove it, it has been written by some that horse bones has been found outside India, that the migration of people from India to Asia and Europe where they found the horse, tamed it and brought it back to India. These prevailing views only demonstrate only one thing concerning the horse. Since it cannot be identified with India, then common sense dictates that several stories would accompany such lack of evidence. Really , I don’t see what revelance this has with India. Sharply divided into two camps, the two factions have traded barbed arguments as to the true nature of the IVC. Digging on the sites of one of the largest civilization in antiquity , archaeologists and historians alike are coming to grips with not only its artifacts but how to fit in the grandeur that once graced the magnificent ruins of this ancient empire in the north west of India, and this is the greatest question of all–was it indigenous or Aryan? A lot of pride hangs on this simple question and this article will forward the case for the reader to decide.
To first decide whether it is indigenous or Aryan, we must turn to the pages of the Vedas since no decipherment of the script of the civilization has occurred. As in other civilizations language to language has been compared to ascertain whether such civilizations were IE or vice versa. Thus, it is only sensible to turn to the artifacts of the two civilizations and the Indus to see if they match or give a label to this vexing question. Until such time as the decipherment of the script, no claims should be made on the subject.
The pages of the Vedas provide us at a glance of one sole fact. That it was a steppe culture fresh from the vast expanses of the Russian steppe and geographically in line to India and a host of other nearby countries.
ANIMALS: The one animal the IVC do not expose in its ruins are the horse. This inescapable fact is completely absent in its ruins. All the others which were in the Indus are there and most of them the Vedic Aryans were familiar with except a few like the elephant and lion which are mostly tropical one. It is this one marker which differentiate the two civilizations. To keep the critics silent, I will enumerate the different breeds of horses , the Vedic Aryans knew.
BREEDS: Steeds, stallions, mares bays, tawny coursers, bay steeds, bay coursers, red mares, dark steeds, flying steeds and horses.
MYTHOLOGY: Throughout the Vedas references are given to winged steeds and winged horses as in IE myths and stories, eg. Greek and Roman histories and others. Then, there are the kinnaras, the Centaurs of Greek mythology. So far no pictographic , seal , script or engraving has been unearthed in the Indus depicting the form of the horse nor drawings of flying horses.
PASTORAL: A glance at the Vedas and its lifestyle in its pursuit of life can tell the reader what kind of people who lived in its pages. They are definitely evolved from a country style of living and occupation and some critics in India, the very people who are trying change the course of history, know this since some of them probably came from this lifestyle and graduated to the towns to educate themselves. The steppe life hits you from its very first page in the worship of gods on the pastures of India where sacrifices are made on holy grass and the cremation of Vedic Aryans. These terms include cowpen, stables for horses, stalls, holy grass, sacred grass, herds, herdsman, woodcutting, brushwood, tribes and chieftains, warriors, clans, kinsmen, herders, pastures, nomads, villages, forest, mountains, rivers, 0 boughs and fodder etc. This is the lifelong scene which the Vedic Aryans are accustomed to from the time they left their homeland to migrate or to invade India and Afghanistan.
OCCUPATION: The occupation of the Aryans include warriors, singers, priests, bards, sages, seers, chanters, weavers, ennuchs, dressers of the soma, praisers, toilers heralds , wrights, nobles etc. Then, there are those who repaired the chariots etc such as the wrights and blacksmiths.
LUST FOR RICHES: There are terms for riches, as treasures, wealth , spoils, bounty, booty, cattle, herds of horses. The Aryans raided and looted their neighbors for wealth and accumulation of treasures and trading of horses, a major pastime of the Vedic aryans, especially horses for sacrifices. The Indus people traded with near and far countries for wealth and prosperity. I don’t seem to remember the Indus people raiding other cities for wealth or trading horses to accumulate wealth.
CHARIOT TERMS: As owners of fine breeds of horses, words like bits, bridles, harness , whips, girdles, cheekpieces, leather straps, horse saddles for there were horse riding in the Vedas on several occasions, wheels, felly, axles, spokes,yokes ,naves poles, wagons, lasso, tires and other such things associated with the horse and chariot. Nothing of this sort is found in the Indus.
FIVE EERIE SIMILARITIES: Now lets go outside India for the origin of the Aryans or Indo-Europeans on the steppes of Russia. Here in the Sintashta- Petrovka archaeological site as well as countless others , we can draw the deep references and similarities as to where the Indo-Iranians were living before migrating to India and Iran. Here in the Sintashta Petrovka culture we find:
1) Burial of chariots and horses where the same method is used as in India.
2) The sacrifice of horses.
3) The Dadhyanc figure. It is one thing to read about the mythic figure in the Vedas but is another to read that archaelogists have unearthed its reality in the steppes or Russia. Chillingly, brought to life, archaeologists were astounded to find the so called Vedic myth coming to life before their very eyes. In the Vedas, Dadhyanc who refused to give out the secret of the drink to the Asvins, had his head cut off and replaced with the head of a horse. This incident only shows that the Vedic Aryans were not telling myths in their holy scriptures but describing what had actually happened.
4) The spread of IE people from the steppes with the chariots like those buried in the steppes of Russia and
and spreading the language.
5) The argument by certain historians and writers that the horse and chariot originated in the Near East has now been broken. It is now credited to the Indo-Aryans who introduced it to the southern empires, the Indus included.
FOOD: The Vedas gave us such items as Soma, roasted corn, corn, roasted grain, holy cake, sweets, milk, curds, barley, nectar or honey, food of the gods, unguents, cucumber, butter, clarified butter, liquors,grain, meat, meal cakes, sap and groats.
VESSELS: Cups, bowls, caldrons, earthen vessels, kettles, press stones, ladles, beakers,jars, water ewers, urns, jugs, pitchers and goblets. I don’t see a knife and fork civilization here.
ARTIFACTS: Whetstone, grindstone, amulets, mortar, pestles, awls, stone hoes, braziers, bronze celts, spindles, the swastika and trident.
JEWELLRY: Golden necklaces, earrings, golden chalice, silver chalice,gold decorations,bracelets,silver cups and ornaments.
MILITARY ARMS: Coat of mail, socketed battle axes, breastplates, lances, hafted daggers, quivers and composite bows and arrows.
WERGILD: The custom of wergild was brought to India from across the steppes from the Hittite civilization before the break up of the IE family of languages. No other country practiced wergild but IE peoples. The Indo -Iranians knew this custom when they were huddled in the homeland.
RITES: The pages of the Vedas and the Avesta is filled with customs and rites connected with feasts, oblations, libations prayers, chanting, sacrifices, banquets for the gods as well with all of the above itemized.
As a comparison the different cultures on the Russian steppes have most of all this article has mentioned especially the Tarim Basin Tocharian civilization. The Androvono, Sintashta, Petrovka sites practiced the kurgan burial custom , the worship of solar sun god, horse sacrifice and the Tarim mummies were dressed in Iranian costume style and with tikas on their foreheads, an Indian custom. A whetstone was found on the eyes of an infant similarly in the Vedas we have whetstones. Drawings of centaurs on the cave walls and houses just as in Greek and Indian centaurs and kinnaras. Accoutrements relating to horse and chariot technology such as wheels, bridles , bits etc are also found there. Solar symbols of swastikas are found engraved on caldrons and on the walls of the occupants. Also, in the different archaeological sites on the Russian steppes are found to be similar to the Aryan occupation of India. The Pit Grave culture are found grindstones, weaving whetstones , kurgan mound burial etc. The Androvono culture depicts horses, chariots, hoes, grinders, pestles, mortars, clay vessels, awls, braziers, bracelets etc. The IE Scythians displays ploughs, yoke, horses, chariots and horse riding, girdles , reins, bits, cheekpieces, horse sacrifices and sun worship.
GRAVE PIT BURIALS: The Aryan practice of grave pit burials at Krivoe Ozero on the steppes are uncannily similar to that of Vedic India. The grave goods of yokes,harness etc together with humans and ritually killed horses was practiced in India. No such practice is ever recorded in the Indus cities. What is observed throughout the Russian steppes is the use of grain instead of rice, especially barley which the early Aryans of India used for their diet. All the cultures has this in common. Rice was only used by the Aryans long after they settled down in India. This simple diet , so common among IE peoples simply destroys the arguments of the pro Aryanists Indus. Nowhere in the steppes of Russia can rice be found as a staple diet. The Sredny Stog culture , barley is used , the Androvono, also barley,the Vedas and the Avesta used barley,the steppe culture of Kazakhstan also, used barley as well as the Scythians. Isn’t this enough evidence that the Indus could not be Aryan?
Now, I wonder who would speak up on the Indus and its supposedly similarities to call itself as Aryan in origin. But all their arguments are only polemics because not one of the above can apply to the Indus to support its claim as an Aryan entity.
HORSE TRADE: Aryan life on the vast Russian steppes could not have been possible without the existence of the horse and chariot. Apart from their daily life of living and struggling to exist on the harsh plains, they took comfort from their possession of their prized animal, the magnificent horse. It brought them wealth, prosperity and land. Their migrations were possible, they were able to raid and fight to garner food and riches but most of all they traded their horses among their different clans and peoples. In exchange they obtained the most superb brands of stallions and steeds. They raced and gambled, they sacrificed them and made war and raids to expand their occupation and culture. This is the most significant difference between the Indus and the Aryans. Indus society was more or less sedentary and urbanized , not rural and pastoralized. Horses and steppe culture were not part of their civilization and to equate them as Aryan in origin is pushing the envelope too far. There is the religious rite of horse sacrifice, solar worship and swastikas so elaborately put together by the Aryans and IE peoples in their various cultures. If the proponents of the Aryan Indus can show me horse trade in the Indus cities, I am prepared to accept their arguments and so are others. In the meantime, they have no trace for such a transaction.
Apart from the above, there are certain fields which I will lay out here that can only be from the origin of steppe life with its customs, rites and its nomadic style of living.
THE REALITY OF DADHYANC: The Rgveda gave us a chilling description of the story of Dadhyanc and how his head was severed and until now this story was considered a myth by historians and writers but they got the shock of their lives when archaeologists discovered that the myth was true- discovered on the steppes of Russia. (LET THEM EAT HORSES. Institute For Equestrian Studies 1997 by Dr. David Anthony) He writes:
The horses’s head was thought to be a source of power by itself, an idea that seems to have survived among the peasant cultures of Europe. One of the most intriguing myths in the Vedas concerns a man, Dadhyanc Atharvan, wh learned from Tvastr , the maker god the secret of making mead, an intoxicating hone drink. The Asvins , or the Divine twins who are themselves occasionally represented poetically as a pair of young horses insisted that Dadhyanc tell them the secret of the mead. He refused. They cut off his head and replaced it with the head of a horse, through which he became an oracle and told them the secret they desired. In other hymns in the Vedas horse heads flowed magically with honey.
These ritual themes have been investigated archaeologically the IAES and its sister organization in Samara, Russia, the Institute for the History and Archaeology of the Volga. Excavations led by Dr. Igor Vasiliev have unearthed ritual deposits of horse heads at Syezh’ye, a Copper Age cemetery dated about 4500-5000 BC. in the Samara River valley in Russia. On the ancient surface above a group of nine Copper Age graves, Vasiliev’s team found two horse skulls lying with various ornaments, broken ceramic pots, and stone tools within a redstained patch of powdered red ochre. The horses obviously were part of a funerary offering , the oldest of its kind yet found. At Dereivka on the Dnieper River in the Ukraine, the now famous horse with bit wear on its premolar teeth was part of a head and hoof deposit at the edge of a settlement dated about 4200 BC. It was found with the remains of two dogs, which probably were part of the same ritual offering . In a grave in the Elista steppes south of the lower Volga in Russia, excavators found the skulls of 40 horses deposited in a Catacomb culture grave dated about 2500 BC. But the most fascinating discovery of this kind was a find that could have been the grave of Dadhyanc himself.
At Potapovka, near Samara on the Sok river, excavations conducted from 1985 -1988 exposed four burial mounds or kurgans dated about 2200-2000 BC. Beneath kurgan 3, the central grave pit contained the remains of a man buried with at least two horse heads and the head of a sheep, in addition to pottery vessels and weapons. After the grave pit was filled, a human male was decapitated, his head was replaced with the head of a horse , and he was laid down over the filled grave shaft. This unique deposit provides a convincing antecedent for the Vedic myth. Now, lets analyze this story and see what it tells.
A story like this in the Rgvedas would simply not have been narrated had it not been experienced before in their homeland. The unearthing of the burial mound is enough evidence that the Vedic Aryans were from the steppes and nomadic. The whole story is now coming to pass. Those who reject or consider the Aryans as people from the Indus civilization are now silent. How can a story related in a holy book can come true on the Russian steppes if it was not part and parcel of the culture of its people. Secondly, the writers of the Vedas knew these stories and retold them for future generations.
Hey guys, Whatever happened to the theories of Frawley, Rajaram and others? I think it is time to review their theories.
Dear all,
It has been really interesting reading;It seems most of the writters seem to defend “indo-euro-aryanism” and linguistic racism
by default.This is all old stuff. Look at cumulative evolution out of africa. Aryan/semitic model is biblical creation model imposed by british in 19th century that had lead to ” hindu-british Aryan brothers” versus ” semitic arabic apologist muslim” ethno religious cultural divide and indias’ plunder ( by british) and “india’s holocaust–partition messacre”( 2 millions perished). In anew book ( urdu/hindi an artificial divide, african heritage etc) i have tried to integrate out of africa and mideast farmers revealing a cumulative Indian culture based on ecological evolution;This exposes Biblical aryan/semitic racism ( 6000 years oid) as priestly
fraud/politics and discredits terms such as ” hindu,muslim, judeo-chritian civilisations as politiacal fraud; civilisation/languages
are based on ecology/evolution and NOT on Adam/eve/ or hindu creationism.
Book ( 2006) has some interesting reviews. will help the debate move away from religious/national fundamentalism/racism.
In continuation of the discussion whether Aryans were local or foreigner, the story of Ramayan is another proof. On comparison of Illiad and Ramayan, the biggest thing that come out of it is that Ramayan is nothing but the copy of Illiad. Homer wrote Illiad sometimes 3000 years ago WHEREAS Ramayan and Mahabharat was written about 1000-1500 years thereafter. The histoical evidence suport the invasion of Aryans on India. Ramayan appear to be carbon copy of conceopt from Illiad vis a vis deep affection of two brothers, kidnapping the wife by the ruler of an island country, war betwween them so on and so off. This further confims the theft of Greek literature by so called Indian writers with a view to please the invaders and imposition of the same as religious text. It is strange tha Iliad is never taken as a part of the religion unlike the Ramayan in India. This further proves the copy cat nature of Indians to please those in power.-Jogi
/** Homer wrote Illiad sometimes 3000 years ago WHEREAS Ramayan and Mahabharat was written about 1000-1500 years thereafter.
**/
I dont know about dating of Illiad.. But what substantiation we have to date Ramayan or Mahabharatha?