The Real History of India – Part 7: Chariots, Horses and Thunderbolts

Updated March 4, 2008: Asko Parpola covers the IVC Script & Aryan Invasion Theory debate in his interview in the Hindu newspaper today.

Updated March 3, 2008: Sreedhar said he was not able to access the ODS format spreadsheet. I have uploaded the Excel format as well. Sorry about that.

Prolog:

In this post, we make an attempt to understand the Aryan Invasion Theory further. We already showed in the previous post that it was Aryanization and not Aryan Invasion. Given the nature of this discussion, dates assume critical significance in contrast to the other posts in this series so far.

Happenings in the Central Asian Plate [4000-1700BC]

Domestication of the Horse – It is hard to believe that, what could be termed a routine animal husbandry innovation, the taming of yet another animal – the horse in 4000 BC in the Eurasian Steppes of Ukraine turned out to be a tectonic event in the history of humankind. But what actually made the domestication of the horse a major event, was the tying of the horse to the Chariot in Northern Kazakhastan by the Sintashta and Petrovka culture in 2100 BC. One additional innovation these people made is the Spoked Wheel in place of the solid wheel which gave the chariots the speed and agility by making the wheels much lighter. The Sintashta and Petrovka cultures are a sub-culture of the larger Andronovo Culture . There is evidence of the Andronovo Culture’s continued presence in the Southern Russia/Northern Kazakhstan area till 1000 BC. Interestingly, the Sintashta & Petrovka Sub-Cultures, who buried chariots and gave us the evidence, lasted from 2100-1700 BC. And even more interestingly, the Fedorovo sub-culture show evidence of cremation and fire worship dated 1500-1300 BC.

Modified Kurgan Hypothesis – As I explained before, Marija Gimbutas postulated the Kurgan Hypothesis using which she showed that the Kurgan people, as she called them due to their unique burial customs, spread out as the Indo Europeans across the world with a patriarchal militaristic culture that overran the Mother Goddess culture everywhere. We already know that it wasn’t a simple matristic Mother Goddess culture but a full-fledged proto-trinity. In my readings, there is linguistic evidence to show that elements of Proto-Indo-European language and customs were present in Ukraine from 2500-2000 BC which shows splitting into Proto-Greek and Proto-Indo-Iranian . The Proto-Indo-Iranian arm appearing in the Andronovo culture we spoke about earlier and the Proto-Greek arm appearing in the Catacomb Culture .

Happenings in the Neolithic Plate [5300-539 BC]

First, let us look at a 2000BC map of the world which shows the constituents of the Neolithic Plate very well to orient ourselves. Sumer is represented by Ur III (Southern Mesopotamia) and Hurrians (Northern Mesopotamia).

What i did next is to compile the key dates for all the reference civilizations of the Neolithic Plate – Egyptian, Sumerian, Minoan, IVC, Elamite, Anatolian, Dilmun, Mycenean. I also included Celts but i couldn’t find any key dates for them.

I have included the entire compilation into this open document format spreadsheet Key Historical Events [Excel format: Key Historical Events Excel]. Please open this spreadsheet and take a look at the sheet titled “Bronze Age Dates”. I have included as many references and commentary for all of you to understand some of the key events taking place as I understood them.

As i was compiling the dates, i made some observations:

1. Around 2000 BC, Hittites turned out to be the earliest Indo-European arrival in the Neolithic Plate into the Anatolian area and they become one of the most powerful people in the region. They quickly became literate adopting the Anatolian Hieroglyphics which we covered in our earlier post. By 1800 BC, they borrowed the Akkadian Cuneiform to create the Hittite Cuneiform script. Their key god was the Storm God [equivalent of Indra]. The rest of the pantheon shows amalgamation with the Luwian pantheon. Hittites also introduced their big military innovation – the Triga or the 3-horse chariot which can carry one charioteer plus 2 warriors, in place of the Biga or the 2-horse chariot which could carry only one warrior aside from the charioteer.

2. In every major area, there seems to be evidence of amalgamation of the local people in the Neolithic Plate. Even the most war-like of the new arrivals – the Hittites show a lot of evidence of amalgamating with the previous Luwian culture. This is in stark contrast to Gimbutas’s assertion that the world was completely overrun by the war-like Indo Europeans across the board completely decimating the previous Mother Goddess culture.

At this point I decided to sort the dates in the Bronze Age Dates sheet in descending order to see anything new will pop-up. I made this into another sheet – Bronze Age Dates Sorted in the same spreadsheet file mentioned above. Voila! Many key Bronze Age events jumped out at me by clustering around [I marked these in yellow] 1700 BC:

1. We have already proved that Minoa is Magan . Minoan Crete suffers 2 major destructions (1700 BC and 1400BC) – both times their palaces in Knossos were burnt down. Natural Calamities are suspected – archaeologists looking for a volcanic eruption to explain the destruction and the decline of Minoa. Linear A script appears in Knossos after 1700BC which i observed to be similar to cuneiform [Citation Needed]. After 1400BC, Myceneans take control of Crete. Poseidon becomes a key god in Knossos [Poseidon=Rudra]. Since the horned god Cernunnos was there in Minoa, they connected it to Poseidon like the Aryans tied Rudra to IVC’s Siva.
2. IVC rises to its maturity and the trail of evidence shows that the IVC cities (not the suburbs) were abandoned around 1700 BC. Historians are not able to explain this abandonment and are looking towards Natural Calamities – floods, sudden drying of rivers etc to explain this. We also have evidence of Aryans entering the IVC area.

3. In 1700 BC, The Mitanni – a third splinter group of the Proto-Indo-Iranians invade Hurrians in Northern Mesopotamia [The other 2 are Iranians and Aryans]. We get to see the world’s first written mention of the Proto-Indo-Iranian gods – Indra, Varuna, Nasatya (Ashwini Twins) in the Mitanni-Hittite Treaty of 1380 BC. By then Mitannis have become the Proto-Indo-Iranian super-stratum on top of the Hurrian people. Mitanni also cremate their dead.

4. Elamite-Babylonians take over Southern Mesopotamia. Dilmun collapses in 1600 BC. Middle Kingdom comes to an end in Egypt in 1630 BC.

5. Hittites started a major territorial expansion drive in 1700 BC. They have also adopted the new Cuneiform script by then.

Neolithic Supply Chain Collapses

If you go back and read the Neolithic Supply Chain post you will see that all the events above are affecting all the constituent parts of the pentagonal supply chain – Sumer, IVC (Meluhha), Magan, Dilmun, Anatolia and Egypt. I also proved in that post that the whole raison d’etre for the Supply Chain was the hard to find Tin which was sourced from Celtic UK via the hub at Magan. It is easy to deduce at this point that the Supply Chain was totally disrupted due to a near simulataneous attack on all the major nodes [Egypt there is no attack but somehow the Middle Kingdom ended]. It doesn’t appear that all of these were coordinated even though most of the conquests were done by the Indo-European peoples except the Elamite-Babylonian who don’t seem to be Indo-European.

This collapse triggers a huge shortage of Bronze in the Neolithic Plate and shows up in the historical records as such. A major trade disruption also shows up in the historical record of the Bronze Age. It took nearly 500 years after the collapse of the Neolithic Supply Chain to pave the way for the discovery of Iron which ushered in the Iron Age with an accepted dating of 1200 BC.

Neolithic Plate Subducts Under the Central Asian Plate
When I came up with the Anthropological Plate Tectonics analogy, I had just begun my research. I had no idea that I will land up at the point that I am at now. I used this analogy based upon the fact that the Neolithic world was collaborating extensively and I had read about the Austronesians hiving off from China and overrunning the pacific-oceanic islands thanks to their outrigger canoe – a breakthrough invention. I thought that resembled the Plate Tectonics concept of Subduction – one plate buckling under the other to form a new fused area in the border areas of the plates.

Well, look at what happened in the Neolithic world, by 1000 BC or so the entire Neolithic mother goddess culture had been amalgamated by the Indo European Culture everywhere in the Neolithic world except the Celts and the Eastern and Southern Regions of the Indian subcontinent. Subduction is an useful analogy, because if you look from the top it appears to be Indo European, but when you dig deeper, you clearly see the Neolithic Substratum everywhere.

I believe this is the critical error we are making both in Greece and India, looking just at the most recent layer and coming to a conclusion based on that. Interestingly, if you look at who is driving these erroneous conclusions – it is the Greek Nationalists in Greece and Hindu nationalists in India (Hindutvavadis). In Greece, the revisionist historians are trying hard to find a non-existent Volcanic eruption in Crete so that they can extend the Greek historical record back into the Minoan period because they want to prove that the highly advanced Minoan civlization was Greek. In India, revisionist historians are trying to invent some natural calamity to explain the abandonment of the IVC Cities so that they can extend the Vedic people back into the IVC period to show that the Vedic people are indigenous and that the highly advanced IVC was Vedic!

Epilog:

With this post, we complete our look at the Aryan Invasion Theory. From our next post we will go back to the IVC again. Here are some questions for you to dig deeper into:

1. Who burnt down Knossos in 1700 BC and again in 1400BC?

2 . How come Hittites and Myceneans who we say are Indo Europeans bury their dead, whereas the Indo Iranians and Mitannis cremate their dead?

3. Based on the above, what date would you assign to the Vedas?


Comments

  1. Quote
    Sukumar (subscribed) said March 10, 2008, 8:58 am:

    Thanks Meenaks for the catch. i agree i made a mistake on uram.

    Indo European is a place holder for the language that is the parent language of the Indo European family of languages like Sanskrit, Greek etc.

    i don’t think we should even be thinking Indo European for the IVC because the Aryans came to the IVC only around 1700 BC and teh script dates from 3200 BC or 2500 BC depending on who you are listening to.

    While the Mel=soft derivation is interesting it is not relevant for the IVC script decipherment.

  2. Quote
    Sridhar N.K said March 10, 2008, 9:21 am:

    Meenaks,

    This is brilliant, f…ing brilliant. This is in response to your comment http://www.sastwingees.org/2008/03/01/the-real-history-of-india-part-7-chariots-horses-and-thunderbolts/#comment-2495

    The shape of Ural mountains – now, isn’t that a giant leap! I love your thought process on this.

    The ural is shaped like a U with a handle. The analysis behind it (I am looking for the geologists that did the research on this and published the paper – I didn’t bookmark it) is that the middle of the Ural mountains had a crater impact and the mountains couldn’t form in a straight line due to this.

    So, the mountain took a u-turn towards the east before it straightened out again in the lower part of the mountain range. The mountain range is that’s why divided into 3 parts.

    Sukumar – In IVC, think about the U with the hand inside it symbols – even included in M-314 and it belongs to ‘agriculture’ group

  3. Quote
    Sridhar N.K said March 10, 2008, 9:28 am:
  4. Quote
    Sukumar (subscribed) said March 10, 2008, 9:30 am:

    Interesting Sreedhar and Meenaks. I looked at the research paper, but i could not make out the U and the handle?

  5. Quote
    Sridhar N.K said March 10, 2008, 9:37 am:

    Meenaks,

    If you want to look at what could be a “ural” with a hand (kai) in it, see

    http://www.safarmer.com/fsw2.pdf – page 12 – the seal is M-314 and look at the 2nd row 2nd symbol from the right after the “cut” symbol.

  6. Quote
    Sridhar N.K said March 10, 2008, 9:44 am:

    Sukumar,

    This need not be true – so, take it with a pinch of salt. The middle ural is a semi-circle ring structure. It looks like the shape of a U only tilted 270 degrees (east-west U instead of north-south U). There is little or no vegetation on the west side of the Ural because of the meteor impact. In the picture, the pink lines are the mountain range

  7. Quote
    Meenaks said March 10, 2008, 11:08 pm:

    Sridhar, thanks for pointing out the ural with hand symbol in the IVC seal. It is very similar to the ural and ulakkai combination used now.

    About the shape of the Ural mountain range, it is very interesting.

  8. Quote
    senthil (subscribed) said March 23, 2008, 2:10 pm:

    Sukumar,

    Its very interesting to read about tracing back to domestication of horses. Horses has been one of the key archealogical cum cultural evidences in support of AIT theory.

    Is there any findings of taming of elephants.. Its interesting to note that, the alexandrian army retreated on fearing 6000 elephant fleets of chandragupta maurya.

    So, is there any time line for domestication of elephants?

    I learned in this post, that there was around 2000 years b/w taming of horse and tying them to chariots… how long could it have taken, for taming of elephants, and mastering the skills to use it for wars?

  9. Quote
    Sukumar (subscribed) said March 23, 2008, 8:12 pm:

    Senthil,
    Thanks. You are talking about elephants being used in the war with Alexander and the greeks which happened in 326 BC or so. Whereas the discussion is about what happened in 1700 BC and prior to that. Elephants find a mention in the IVC seals, so they have been known from atleast 3000 BC. It is not clear whether they were tamed or not. In any case, IVC people did not fight wars because they were a non-militaristic culture.

    Additionally, Alexander was not defeated. The best someone did was Purushottam Porus who fought a valiant battle and lost. Alexander was impressed by his valour and gave his kingdom back. Alexander retreated because his army was tired of the long trip from their home and wanted to go back.

  10. Quote
    senthil (subscribed) said March 27, 2008, 1:51 pm:

    An alternate theory was also proposed.. that alexander had initially gained in the battle of hydapses, later, when porus introduced his elephant fleet numering around 1500, it created havoc among macedonian army lines. Although they have won the war, the army refused to march forward, because of the fact that they have cross a large river and then face the mauryan army which consisted of 6000 elephants.. the sheer number, that frightened the macedonian army..

    Later, chandragupta maurya, overthrow the greek governors and re-captured the terrirory..

    Clearly, the elephant fleet was unique of Indian kingdoms..

    There was another event, when alexander attempted war with Nubia, he faced a brilliant formation of army, with elephant fleet that he did not fight them..

    Also, it was said, that Indian elephant fleet was far superior than those of african elephants,..

    History has never been told from our perspective..

  11. Quote
    Sridhar N.K said March 27, 2008, 4:17 pm:

    Senthil,

    “History has never been told from our perspective” – I agree with you completely. Unfortunately, people think that History has to be told as it happened, from truth’s perspective. I don’t see why they are not looking at it from India’s perspective. Why can’t they be a little lenient, right! We’ll write to them, and I am sure in time, they’ll see it from “our” perspective.

    You must be very old Senthil – you seem to have lived during Alexander period and you seem to know what the army feared and what they thought.

    I am sure at some point you are going to enlighten us about where you’re going with your elephant theories, right! Is it another round-about way of pre-dating Rig Veda? Come on! you can be open with us 🙂

  12. Quote
    Sukumar (subscribed) said March 28, 2008, 10:48 am:

    Senthil,
    Again for the Nth time, what is the relevance of Elephants in the Battle of Hadapses and the IVC? IVC’s dissappearance predates that event by more than 1200 years. Your view of how Porus and Alexander’s battle is not based on history. In any case, whatever distorted view you hold of Alexander has nothing to do with the IVC.

    IVC has no mention of horses, spoked wheels and chariots. We have found over 5000 inscribed objects and not a single one shows a horse or a chariot. But the RV Concordance shows (i have given this data in my AIT post) that horses and chariots were very very important.

    BTW, i noticed another major historical error in your previous comment. Chandragupta Maurya attained the throne in 320 BC a few years after Alexander left India. So Alexander’s army could not have retreated in fear of Chandragupta Maurya. The king that was ruling Magadha during Alexander’s time was Dhana Nanda – a supposed despot not liked by the Magadha people. This is the king’s army who you say Alexander’s army was afraid of. That is the historical joke of the millennium if you consider the fact that Dhana Nanda was killed by Chandragupta only a few years later with nothing but a few men with him. What were the great army/military/elephants of Dhana Nanda doing when Chandragupta took over the kingdom by deposing Dhana Nanda? A guy who couldn’t even protect his life was going to fight Alexander’s army that is humankind’s most successful army? In fact, Chandragupta is supposed to have said that Alexander missed a historic opportuniy to annexe Magadha because the people of Magadha were very unhappy under Dhana Nanda and the people themselves would have supported Alexander.

    Maybe Chandragupta was also in on the western conspiracy to defame India.

  13. Quote
    senthil (subscribed) said March 28, 2008, 2:51 pm:

    Sukumar,

    I think i am misunderstood.. First is i dont contradict your point “IVC did not have horse seals”.. i accept that.. But, this gave me this elephant clue..

    I did not say, alexander invaded IVC.. I just mentioned to emphasise, that porus maintained such large army in the area that falls in the region of present day IVC maps.

    What i was proposing is the preceding time line , that would have taken for such large elephant fleet to have evolved. Considering chariots have evolved after more than 1500 years of taming horses, such a similar time line should have existed for taming elephants and using them in war..

    The connection b/w IVC elephant seals, and the possibility of evolving of elephant fleet could not be ignored.. the link b/w IVC and the first recorded later day history (ie, porus of 4th century) of the region is missing..

    I would like to raise this point with all concerned historians, from both the camps.. like parpola, Rajaram, Farmer etc.
    ————————————————————–

    It was Nanda’s army of 6000 elephants, and NOT chandragupta maurya… It was my mistake…

    I feel, the history of how Chandragupta maurya won Dhana Nanda , is different from what you have said.

    As per the following wikipedia link, Chandragupta first defeated Macedonian Satrapies, and then defeated Nanda in a war.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chandragupta_Maurya

    And about the NANDA dynasty, the following link gives, some picture.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nanda_Dynasty

    “As for the Macedonians, however, their struggle with Porus blunted their courage and stayed their further advance into India. For having had all they could do to repulse an enemy who mustered only twenty thousand infantry and two thousand horse, they violently opposed Alexander when he insisted on crossing the river Ganges also, the width of which, as they learned, was thirty-two furlongs, its depth a hundred fathoms, while its banks on the further side were covered with multitudes of men-at-arms and horsemen and elephants. For they were told that the kings of the Ganderites and Praesii were awaiting them with eighty thousand horsemen, two hundred thousand footmen, eight thousand chariots, and six thousand fighting elephants.”

    Refernce: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/ptext?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0243&layout=&loc=62.1

  14. Quote
    Sukumar (subscribed) said March 28, 2008, 7:09 pm:

    Senthil,

    1. Elephants are present in IVC Seals. Yes, but that is not evidence of taming of the elephant. If there is any evidence of that, i would like to see it. For instance, Rhino is also present in the IVC seals, we can’t take that as evidence of Rhino being domesticated. Rhinos are yet to be domesticated, even 5000 years after its mention.

    2. Even if tamed Elephants were available to the IVC, they did not use it in war. If you can find evidence of that, please post the same.

    3. Even if Elephants were used by the IVC in the war against Aryans (if you read my post, you will know that there is no evidence of a large scale war with the Aryans), what does that prove? Unless i am missing something?

    4. You don’t need to raise any point to historians. There is plenty of evidence available for you to do research and find out for yourself. I will urge you to do some reading on your own on this elephant theory and do a post.

    5. Thanks. I am glad you agree it was Dhana Nanda’s army.

    6. You are misinterpreting the Wikipedia entry. The mention about defeat of the satrapies Chandragupta did only after attaining the throne of Magadha in 320 BC. He could not have before that because he did not have a large army. The Satrapies were formed only after Alexander left in 326 BC. You need to read some more about Chandragupta and Chanakya. From what i know, they used cunning and subterfuge to infiltrate the Dhana Nanda inner circle and Chandragupta killed Dhana Nanda and took the throne. He could not have defeated Dhana Nanda in battle because of the large Nanda army which you say even Alexander was afraid of.

    7. I have read that Perseus reference before. I think those statements are accurate. But what is also mentioned which you conveniently ignore is that Alexander’s army waged many many successful battles and conquered territory including Porus. The army was also very tired. Right there in the perseus quote, you see he mentions about the wide rivers they will have to cross. So it is a combination of multiple factors. To give you some perspective, Alexander’s army is one of the greatest the world has seen in the ancient world. He defeated the Persian army on the way which was as big as the Nanda army if not bigger. Therefore, to say, that Alexander was afraid of Nanda’s army is not an accurate intrepretation of history.

    Please read up some more on these subjects. Interestingly, i don’t see you even 1/100th as vigorosly arguing about even one single point from the body of my post. But you show extraordinary vigor in arguing some points that are not the subject matter of my posts. The timeline in my series is still in 1700 BC. But you are arguing points about 326 BC.

  15. Quote
    Kumaresan Ramalingam (subscribed) said April 9, 2008, 12:09 pm:

    Hi Sukumar,

    I regularly read your Blog on “The Real History of India”, excellent write-ups.

    I came across the below Websites about Human Journey. In these Websites, I find the description of the human journey a bit different from the descriptions in National Geographic Human Journey. In addition, to that there are information about “Rock Art” in India.

    The rock art described here talks about warring scene with elephants and horses but there are no specific dates given against the art.

    http://www.bradshawfoundation.com/journey/ –> about human journey

    http://www.bradshawfoundation.com/india/gallery26.html –> elephants

    http://www.bradshawfoundation.com/india/gallery16.html –> horse

    Regards
    Kumaresan

  16. Quote
    Sukumar (subscribed) said April 12, 2008, 11:16 pm:

    Kumaresan,
    Thanks for your kind words. I did come across the bradshaw foundation in my research. I believe that the National Geographic research is more advanced and possibly scientifically more accurate. I am not an expert on Genography but i beieve NG’s methodology is better.

    The fact that horses are seen in the paleolithic rock art in India is fairly well known. If you goto Bhimbhetka, you can see these (i am yet to go here myself, but is on my to do list). From what i know the Bhimbhetka rock art is close to 40,000 years old. If you read the first post in this series the Gond-Aboriginal connection, i have posted a map from NG site which shows people entering India coming into the Bhimbhetka area 40,000 years ago.

    However, having native horses is one thing and taming them and training them to pull chariots is completely another. For us to prove that the Indus valley civilization used horses and chariots is going to be nearly impossible because there is not a single seal bearing the image of a horse, no evidence of a chariot and no evidence for a spoked wheel. With these 3 impossibilities to overcome, proving that the IVC is Vedic is also impossible.

    Hope that helps?

  17. Quote
    Kumaresan Ramalingam (subscribed) said April 13, 2008, 12:24 am:

    I got it. Thanks for your reply Sukumar…

  18. Quote
    senthil (subscribed) said April 14, 2008, 10:32 am:

    Sukumar,

    I went through those links, and i feel, i have a case here..

    The following photos shows, that warriors riding on horses.

    http://www.bradshawfoundation.com/india/gallery16.html
    http://www.bradshawfoundation.com/india/gallery23.html

    Warring scene involving Elephants and Horses..
    http://www.bradshawfoundation.com/india/gallery26.html

    As per your earlier comment, these rock arts date back to 40,000 years.. so these paintings must predate IVC & other civilizations.. Again the question rises.. how come when horses appear on north and southo of IVC sites but not in IVC area..

    There is another question.. there is no seals in IVC depicting cows.. can we conclude there is no cow in IVC, as per your logic? (i think i have asked the same question, but no answer)

  19. Quote
    Sukumar (subscribed) said April 14, 2008, 11:06 am:

    Senthil,
    Please read my comment above again. The RV talks about horses and chariots. We need to place these in the IVC before the arrival of the Aryans to prove that horses and chariots are indigenous. I am sure you know that horses and chariots are not the only issue in front of us – genealogical, linguistic, archaeological evidences also have to line up for Aryans to be indigenous and those are not available and unlikely to be available ever.

    you are right, just because something is not in the seals, we can’t conclude that it was not there at all. The only thing is (and i showed this using the concordance map for the RV) horses and chariots were critically important to the RV people and one would expect a few seals atleast to bear witness to that level of critical importance.

    As for the cow, i guess this is one more instance of you not reading my posts. Please read my interpretation of the unicorn seal. I have concluded that the unicorn seal is the cow.

    And another thing, going by your logic, why is it that we don’t find the IVC cities anywhere else other than the Indus valley? there are plenty of rivers like the Ganges, Brahmaputra, cauvery, Yamuna, Godavari etc. Then how come the cities are not there?

    Any evidence that you find has to tie in with the larger picture and fit in with the other evidences. Horses found in the Bhimbhetka area (it is not even clear that those are horses, they could be onagers also) from a 40,000 year old picture, by itself, does not prove or disprove anything about horses in the IVC.

    Hope that helps.

  20. Quote
    Neville Ramdeholl (subscribed) said May 9, 2008, 10:58 pm:

    The Absence of the horse andchariot
    at the Indus Civilization.

    Hi, I’m new here and for sometime I
    have been following the argument for
    case of horses and chariots at the
    Indus. I make the following arguments
    on the above subject for your
    consideration.

    1) There are no pictographic images
    at the Indus in its society for the horse
    chariot.
    2) All the animals of the Indus are
    depicted on Indus art except these
    two.

    3)It is plain to see despite what the
    scholars say and write that all the
    animals of the Indus are known by
    the people and thus integrated in
    society.
    4) The Vedic form of horse and
    warrior chariot do not form the
    integrated society of the people.

    5) Had the horse and chariot
    been present at the Indus cities
    they would have been depicted
    in the scripts and art.

    6) Especially the painted form art
    would have been on display as in
    Egypt.

    7)The scripts and other writings of
    the Indus carry no such mention of
    horse and chariot.

    8)The people of the Indus left no
    illustration that they interacted with
    the horse and chariot such as going
    to war or simply travelling in a
    chariot or riding a horse.

    9) There are no evidence of horse
    breeding or horse trading recorded
    in the cities among the population, this des
    despite the fine art of keeping of
    records, scripts, math computation and
    other skills of the Indus people.

    10) The Indus people traded every-
    thing under the sun but there is
    conspicuously an absence of horse
    trade.

    11)There is a lack of evidence of
    integration of the horse and chariot
    in the Indus. There is no pictorial
    art, writing, images, pottery, wall
    paintings or drawings that the horse
    and chariot were known by its
    inhabitants.

    12) Vedic customs and lifestyle are
    different from the lifestyles of the
    Indus people. The horse, chariot and
    cremation are fully integrated in the
    religion and rituals of the Aryans.

    13) The Indus civilization lack this
    lifestyle and ritual. The Aryans are
    pastoral whilst the Indus were urban
    and sedentary people and culture.

    14) Finally, humans in whatever
    society have some remembrance of
    those who died, Our images are
    preserved in photographs, writings,
    records and other art forms, as
    a testament that we were living
    creatures in past years, even
    thousands of years. The cavemen
    preserved their art to show that
    these animals did exist sometime
    in their lifetime. When humans die
    we are also preserved to show that
    we did exist. This did not happen
    in the case of the horse and chariot
    at the Indus. Why? Simply, because
    a) they were overrun by Vedic
    warriors b)Their civilization crumbled
    before the Aryans intruded upon them
    c) Their cities were deserted by some
    natural castrophe such as drying
    rivers, erosion of the land to desert.

    I would be grateful for some feedback
    and criticism for this.

  21. Quote
    Neville Ramdeholl (subscribed) said May 9, 2008, 11:02 pm:

    Thanks for letting me become a member of your forum and I like the democratic way of how your viewers and writers are respectful of the views of others. Thanks again

  22. Quote
    senthil (subscribed) said May 10, 2008, 9:16 am:

    Ramdeholl.. it has to be noted that only 2% of the total indus areas has been discovered.. so more evidences could be dug out.. when comparing with the amount of effort put on egytian pyramids, its very minute of effort put on indus valley..

    Recently discovery channel ran a documentary on indus and they said, it was the largest civilization of its times, and due to monsoon pattern changes, the population migrated to gangetic plains.. (could not find the relevant link in its site..)

  23. Quote
    senthil (subscribed) said May 10, 2008, 9:35 am:

    Sukumar,

    This is in reply to your following comment..
    http://www.sastwingees.org/2008/03/01/the-real-history-of-india-part-7-chariots-horses-and-thunderbolts/#comment-2907

    I am not arriving at any conclusion on that seals.. i was looking for how come that art work 12,000 years old could have come there..

    I have not heard of onagers being used in wars..

    Considering Unocorn as cow could be interpretation.. intepretation differs from people to people.. again the question arrives.. how come people depicting elephants correctly could not do cows exactly..

    Also, if we find the purpose of the seals, we could find out why particular animals is left..

    Next, we have so much of the cities recorded in history but could not be traced now.. for example, greek travellers describe the city of magadha as most beautiful.. but we dont find historic magadha now..
    Also, in recent history, the city of agra had a large number of palaces along the river yamuna.. we also dont find that..

    Next, can it be that subsequent advancement in architectures in other parts of india be attributed to the IVC migration?

  24. Quote
    Sukumar (subscribed) said May 11, 2008, 6:12 am:

    Neville,
    Thanks for stopping by. You are right. Indus did not have horses and chariots. However points you make about Indus writing not referring to chariots is inaccurate because Indus writing is undeciphered. I am sure you know that.

    BTW, it does not look like you actually read my posts because my whole argument is based on the idea that Aryans came from outside and Aryanized the Indus people.

    Senthil,
    A significant corpus of Indus material exists. If horses and chariots were important to the Indus, we should have seen some seals. Please also read my post on the RV which shows why the RV could not have been written by the Indus people. It is not based on just chariots and horses alone. Of course, as always, you keep commenting without actually reading the subject matter of the posts.

  25. Quote
    Sukumar (subscribed) said May 11, 2008, 6:19 am:

    Senthil,
    This is a response to your http://www.sastwingees.org/2008/03/01/the-real-history-of-india-part-7-chariots-horses-and-thunderbolts/#comment-3256

    Even if you can prove that Horses were there in Bhimbhetka, it is not relevant. The Bhimbhetka art is from 40,000 years ago and is not near the Indus. The only way you can prove that horses and chariots were used by Indus people is by finding artefacts in the Indus cities that proves that.

    Onagers were the popular transport prior to the horses. There are several artwork from Sumeria which show onager driven carts. In any case, like i said horses in Bhimbhetka is irrelevant to Indus which is 37000 years later.

    Again, you did not read my post on the unicorn seal. The cow has been depicted accurately. Please read the post. Every animal, plant represented in the Indus seals is extremely accurate. So your assertion of inaccurate depiction of cows is incorrect.

    Cities get torn down and recontrsucted all the time. What does that prove? The fact is simple – we have not found chariots and horses in Indus. You can do one of 2 things – you can wait till chariots and horses are discovered in Indus or you can do your own excavations and find them. We can then have a discussion. Untill then a discussion about horses and chariots in the Indus Valley is going to be fruitless.

    I didn’t understand your point about Indus architectures being found at a later time? Even if we assume that is the case, what does that prove?

  26. Quote
    senthil (subscribed) said May 11, 2008, 2:08 pm:

    Thanks sukumar.. i am not coming to any conclusion, till i get a clear picture of continuity of events.. (probably till that time, i may be disturbing you with my questions 🙂 )

    I accept onagers were used for transport.. but i doubt it be used in wars..

    Regarding unicorn, it represents the bull rather than cow.. i referred the net, and could not find the cow seal.. the unicorn is referred only as bull..

    /** Even if you can prove that Horses were there in Bhimbhetka, it is not relevant. **/

    I will accept your point on chariots and horses till evidence arrives.. but, this bhimbhetka fascinates me, because, if proved, it will make some key existing beliefs wrong, like “horses first used in central asia around 4000 BC” .. in that sense it may be relevant.. (I am not arguing for IVC’s horses and chariots..)

    I am not attempting mysef to prove anything based on bhimbhetka.. but considering the pre-historic people lived in that area, i was wondering, how come they have seen horses with warriors… it has to be noted that chariots are NOT found in that paintings.. only horses..

    Regarding the later day architectures, it may be an advancement of the IVC architectures brought by the migrated IVC people.. (I dont have proof on it.. but i am attempting to evolve a continuity of history..)..

  27. Quote
    Sukumar (subscribed) said May 12, 2008, 9:31 am:

    1. I think we have gone over this before. Onagers whether they were used in wars (You need to dig into Sumeria for that) is not relevant to IVC. Also horses in Bhimbhetka is irrelevant.

    2. Even if Bhimbhetka horses are real horses and the taming of the horses happened 40,000 years ago, it still has no relevance to the IVC. IVC did not use horses or chariots. You need to come up with evidence in the IVC for 3 things – horses, chariots and spoked wheels. When you have that evidence, we can discuss.

    3. The fact that IVC architecture was used later proves that IVC people continue to live in India, which we know already to be true anyway. What is the use of your research, when we already know that IVC people were amalgamated and made subordinate by the Aryans. Is anyone saying IVC people dissappeared from the face of the planet? Are you even reading my posts?

  28. Quote
    Sukumar (subscribed) said May 12, 2008, 9:34 am:

    Senthil,
    Unicorn representing the Bull is a popular but incorrect view. For the last time, PLEASE read my interpretation on why you think my unicorn=cow interpretation is incorrect. The fact that many people think it is a bull is not evidence of it being a bull. That is now how science is done. Science is not a popularity contest.

  29. Quote
    Neville Ramdeholl (subscribed) said July 19, 2008, 3:05 pm:

    The Indus Valley Civilization: Its Reality and Maddening Prevarications of Academia.

    Ever since the discovery of the IVC, the rush to Aryanize its society and culture has filled books, papers,

    media forums and other such articles and such entities has funded and encouraged historians and writers to

    let loose their imaginations in order to rewrite the history of India. The fierce debate whether the IVC is

    Aryan or not has opened up emotions and a stirring of nationalistic feelings among Indians of different social

    and political persuasions and has led to the rewriting of some history books. Even though the undertaking

    and exposing of the vast archaeological empire of the Indus still remains buried below the ground, opinions

    and speculations still persist that further and more radical change be made to the history of India.

    The proven point that the Aryans did not invade India and that horses existed in its society are two areas

    juxtaposed between the migrationist theories and those who proposed an “Aryan India” Between this sliver

    of Aryan and Indus woodwork, lies the heart of the matter, its linch-pin— the horse. Whoever can prove that

    the horse existed at the Indus empire will cap a belated crowning glory and achieve at the same time a

    kind of immortality in Indian history. The playing with historical dates like pushing them back further in time

    sounds like Russian roulette in order to achieve the inevitable and if such a hand can be played and the

    horse can be accommodated to form Indian history as among other things, thus far are historians are willing

    to go. The claims of historians and other writers of horse remains has so far has not been proven or

    recognized by some of local and international academia, even though such claims have been taken up by

    readers of different sorts of books and articles. The horse have remained evasive to not only archaeologists

    who would know one when they have analyzed its bones but to those who advocate its existence at the

    Indus. The so called tentative discovery of horse bones in the cities of the Indus, is the one weakness of

    those who want to weld Aryan history and Indus history together. This, I think will fail. The Indus civilization

    does not have a mythology that speaks of the existence of horse and chariot. First of all, all peoples have

    from their beginnings tales of mythology and from this, their civilizations are born, their society evolves, their

    beliefs entrenched and their livelihood maintained. Without these a people may not survive as a strong entity

    such like the Greeks and the Indian civilizations. Mythology is the fountain of a people, where a kind of fairy

    tale comes down to generation after generation, where images of the mythology are graven in the minds of

    its citizens and from which stories of daring and derring do are told. Greek mythology is filled with horses

    such as Pegasus and Arion, so we know that the Greeks knew about horses, Helios, the Sun god and the

    horses and also the Trojan horse. Our Hindu civilization also has a mythology of horses of the Sun, as well

    as other places mentioned in the Vedas and the Swat culture is one of the first places that the horse

    appeared in India. But can that be said of the Indus civilization? Where is the mythology of the horse and

    chariot in its ancient belief system? The belligerent screaming and writing by academia of horse bones in

    the Indus does not prove anything. There is not a shred of evidence of a horse culture or part of a

    mythologic reference to a horse or chariot in the history of the writing of the Indus nor in its society and the

    isolated claims of nationalistic writings has no foundation whatsoever. Claims of horse presence in the

    absence of a mythology in comparison with Hindu or Greek is not only a failure, but a historical greed to

    fulfill nationalistic grandeur for India which would be penitently false. I am sure Hindus would not like to

    incorporate a false version of historical data in their proud history. I personally would abhor such a travesty.

  30. Quote
    Neville Ramdeholl (subscribed) said November 30, 2008, 11:21 am:

    Priya and Sukumar, I am delighted with your findings on the Aryan and their historical antecedents in the formation of Indian history. Be careful you are overthrowing the theories of Dr. Frawley and his band of revisionists. Anyhow , I am just submitting an article which I had submitted to them sometime ago. I don’t think they liked it! Enjoy.

    Since I began writing on the controversial subject of the Aryans and against the notorious idea that the Indus is Aryan in nature, I have argued that the Indus Civilization could not possibly be what others have said it is, or that the Aryans are indigenous to India. I still believe as well as others that the Indus is uniquely Indian because of its originality and that the Aryans are an outside force who came and took over this civilization and land to establish their brand of civilization. So much has been written by Indians and foreigners and they spell the general idea that the Indus is Aryan but so far they have failed to decipher its scripts and seals which would give it some sort of identity, they have failed archaeologically to provide evidence that its material and artifacts unearthed are of Aryan origin and most important the inability to provide the evidence of the horse and chariot is monumental. Monumental, because it is the linchpin of Aryan domination of foreign lands and empires that they took by force. Without it, there would have been no intrusion of Indo-European peoples in India or anywhere else. I have been castigated, ridiculed, snubbed and rudely revoked impolitely about my past ideas on the nature of the Indus civilization. All of the above I do not mind, for such is human nature , but what I have written before is now all coming to pass and I will touch upon those things that I had predicted and written about the Indus. The reader must remember one thing in mind and that I had always maintained that the Aryans came from outside, from Central Asia, bringing their steppe life to India, not the other way around. Writing and believing are two different things but to convince historians and writers , especially those from India is a difficult task especially people like Mr. Talageri, Mr. Rajaram and others of the like mind set. These people , no doubt set out to do good, I hope intentionally, but somewhere along the line , they lost their logic and went haywire. They should have held to the maxim that no lost civilization should be identified until its language is properly deciphered so as to know who really built the civilization. Instead of doing or waiting for this result, a cacophony of voices and a deluge of literature descended on the media and other forms of information hailing the Indus as Aryan with their followers blistering anyone who deviates from this truth with bitter complaints that religious zealots , western propaganda and Muller and his henchmen are to be blamed for India’s misfortune for the so called invasion of India and its accompanying falsehoods and distortions. Complaints for the need for impartial historical evidence and literature are now emanating from these channels. Indeed it is. Russian, archaeologists, historians and writers are now discovering and have discovered the original homeland of India’s Aryans on the vast plains of the Russian steppes. At last, concrete evidence of the mysterious and enigmatic Indo-Europeans who intruded into Afghanistan, Iran and India are being unearthed in diverse places east of the Ural mountains as Sintashta for the identical type of chariot used in the Rgveda, in Androvono where identical ritual and sacrifices found in the pages of the Rgveda and most spectacular of all the lost Aryan homeland of Arkaim, the Swastika city.

    . First of all let me salute the masterful builders of the Indus of whom I am very proud for showing the civilized world that Indians, in such a time and age created and built something far advanced and unequalled in their history. The Neolithic Age, I don’t think have seen anything like it in its existence. The discovery of the IVC has opened a Pandora’s Box of fierce debate and at the same time a clouded atmosphere of fear never before seen in the history of archaeology. Stranger still,those who employed the archaeologists to dig up this ancient civilization are patently working furiously behind their backs in undermining the very work they employed them to do. On one hand while the archaeologists are exposing the cities of the Indus without finding any evidence whatsoever of Aryan influence, the historians and writers are flooding the informational and international media with such evidence twisting and turning this evidence and trying to give it an Aryan foundation. For example,lets consider the crucial point of contention of the Indus– the horse. Although no evidence of the horse has not been found in the Indus and despite the fraudalent attempt to prove it, it has been written by some that horse bones has been found outside India, that the migration of people from India to Asia and Europe where they found the horse, tamed it and brought it back to India. These prevailing views only demonstrate only one thing concerning the horse. Since it cannot be identified with India, then common sense dictates that several stories would accompany such lack of evidence. Really , I don’t see what revelance this has with India. Sharply divided into two camps, the two factions have traded barbed arguments as to the true nature of the IVC. Digging on the sites of one of the largest civilization in antiquity , archaeologists and historians alike are coming to grips with not only its artifacts but how to fit in the grandeur that once graced the magnificent ruins of this ancient empire in the north west of India, and this is the greatest question of all–was it indigenous or Aryan? A lot of pride hangs on this simple question and this article will forward the case for the reader to decide.
    To first decide whether it is indigenous or Aryan, we must turn to the pages of the Vedas since no decipherment of the script of the civilization has occurred. As in other civilizations language to language has been compared to ascertain whether such civilizations were IE or vice versa. Thus, it is only sensible to turn to the artifacts of the two civilizations and the Indus to see if they match or give a label to this vexing question. Until such time as the decipherment of the script, no claims should be made on the subject.
    The pages of the Vedas provide us at a glance of one sole fact. That it was a steppe culture fresh from the vast expanses of the Russian steppe and geographically in line to India and a host of other nearby countries.

    ANIMALS: The one animal the IVC do not expose in its ruins are the horse. This inescapable fact is completely absent in its ruins. All the others which were in the Indus are there and most of them the Vedic Aryans were familiar with except a few like the elephant and lion which are mostly tropical one. It is this one marker which differentiate the two civilizations. To keep the critics silent, I will enumerate the different breeds of horses , the Vedic Aryans knew.
    BREEDS: Steeds, stallions, mares bays, tawny coursers, bay steeds, bay coursers, red mares, dark steeds, flying steeds and horses.
    MYTHOLOGY: Throughout the Vedas references are given to winged steeds and winged horses as in IE myths and stories, eg. Greek and Roman histories and others. Then, there are the kinnaras, the Centaurs of Greek mythology. So far no pictographic , seal , script or engraving has been unearthed in the Indus depicting the form of the horse nor drawings of flying horses.
    PASTORAL: A glance at the Vedas and its lifestyle in its pursuit of life can tell the reader what kind of people who lived in its pages. They are definitely evolved from a country style of living and occupation and some critics in India, the very people who are trying change the course of history, know this since some of them probably came from this lifestyle and graduated to the towns to educate themselves. The steppe life hits you from its very first page in the worship of gods on the pastures of India where sacrifices are made on holy grass and the cremation of Vedic Aryans. These terms include cowpen, stables for horses, stalls, holy grass, sacred grass, herds, herdsman, woodcutting, brushwood, tribes and chieftains, warriors, clans, kinsmen, herders, pastures, nomads, villages, forest, mountains, rivers, 0 boughs and fodder etc. This is the lifelong scene which the Vedic Aryans are accustomed to from the time they left their homeland to migrate or to invade India and Afghanistan.
    OCCUPATION: The occupation of the Aryans include warriors, singers, priests, bards, sages, seers, chanters, weavers, ennuchs, dressers of the soma, praisers, toilers heralds , wrights, nobles etc. Then, there are those who repaired the chariots etc such as the wrights and blacksmiths.
    LUST FOR RICHES: There are terms for riches, as treasures, wealth , spoils, bounty, booty, cattle, herds of horses. The Aryans raided and looted their neighbors for wealth and accumulation of treasures and trading of horses, a major pastime of the Vedic aryans, especially horses for sacrifices. The Indus people traded with near and far countries for wealth and prosperity. I don’t seem to remember the Indus people raiding other cities for wealth or trading horses to accumulate wealth.
    CHARIOT TERMS: As owners of fine breeds of horses, words like bits, bridles, harness , whips, girdles, cheekpieces, leather straps, horse saddles for there were horse riding in the Vedas on several occasions, wheels, felly, axles, spokes,yokes ,naves poles, wagons, lasso, tires and other such things associated with the horse and chariot. Nothing of this sort is found in the Indus.
    FIVE EERIE SIMILARITIES: Now lets go outside India for the origin of the Aryans or Indo-Europeans on the steppes of Russia. Here in the Sintashta- Petrovka archaeological site as well as countless others , we can draw the deep references and similarities as to where the Indo-Iranians were living before migrating to India and Iran. Here in the Sintashta Petrovka culture we find:
    1) Burial of chariots and horses where the same method is used as in India.
    2) The sacrifice of horses.
    3) The Dadhyanc figure. It is one thing to read about the mythic figure in the Vedas but is another to read that archaelogists have unearthed its reality in the steppes or Russia. Chillingly, brought to life, archaeologists were astounded to find the so called Vedic myth coming to life before their very eyes. In the Vedas, Dadhyanc who refused to give out the secret of the drink to the Asvins, had his head cut off and replaced with the head of a horse. This incident only shows that the Vedic Aryans were not telling myths in their holy scriptures but describing what had actually happened.
    4) The spread of IE people from the steppes with the chariots like those buried in the steppes of Russia and
    and spreading the language.
    5) The argument by certain historians and writers that the horse and chariot originated in the Near East has now been broken. It is now credited to the Indo-Aryans who introduced it to the southern empires, the Indus included.
    FOOD: The Vedas gave us such items as Soma, roasted corn, corn, roasted grain, holy cake, sweets, milk, curds, barley, nectar or honey, food of the gods, unguents, cucumber, butter, clarified butter, liquors,grain, meat, meal cakes, sap and groats.
    VESSELS: Cups, bowls, caldrons, earthen vessels, kettles, press stones, ladles, beakers,jars, water ewers, urns, jugs, pitchers and goblets. I don’t see a knife and fork civilization here.
    ARTIFACTS: Whetstone, grindstone, amulets, mortar, pestles, awls, stone hoes, braziers, bronze celts, spindles, the swastika and trident.
    JEWELLRY: Golden necklaces, earrings, golden chalice, silver chalice,gold decorations,bracelets,silver cups and ornaments.
    MILITARY ARMS: Coat of mail, socketed battle axes, breastplates, lances, hafted daggers, quivers and composite bows and arrows.
    WERGILD: The custom of wergild was brought to India from across the steppes from the Hittite civilization before the break up of the IE family of languages. No other country practiced wergild but IE peoples. The Indo -Iranians knew this custom when they were huddled in the homeland.
    RITES: The pages of the Vedas and the Avesta is filled with customs and rites connected with feasts, oblations, libations prayers, chanting, sacrifices, banquets for the gods as well with all of the above itemized.
    As a comparison the different cultures on the Russian steppes have most of all this article has mentioned especially the Tarim Basin Tocharian civilization. The Androvono, Sintashta, Petrovka sites practiced the kurgan burial custom , the worship of solar sun god, horse sacrifice and the Tarim mummies were dressed in Iranian costume style and with tikas on their foreheads, an Indian custom. A whetstone was found on the eyes of an infant similarly in the Vedas we have whetstones. Drawings of centaurs on the cave walls and houses just as in Greek and Indian centaurs and kinnaras. Accoutrements relating to horse and chariot technology such as wheels, bridles , bits etc are also found there. Solar symbols of swastikas are found engraved on caldrons and on the walls of the occupants. Also, in the different archaeological sites on the Russian steppes are found to be similar to the Aryan occupation of India. The Pit Grave culture are found grindstones, weaving whetstones , kurgan mound burial etc. The Androvono culture depicts horses, chariots, hoes, grinders, pestles, mortars, clay vessels, awls, braziers, bracelets etc. The IE Scythians displays ploughs, yoke, horses, chariots and horse riding, girdles , reins, bits, cheekpieces, horse sacrifices and sun worship.
    GRAVE PIT BURIALS: The Aryan practice of grave pit burials at Krivoe Ozero on the steppes are uncannily similar to that of Vedic India. The grave goods of yokes,harness etc together with humans and ritually killed horses was practiced in India. No such practice is ever recorded in the Indus cities. What is observed throughout the Russian steppes is the use of grain instead of rice, especially barley which the early Aryans of India used for their diet. All the cultures has this in common. Rice was only used by the Aryans long after they settled down in India. This simple diet , so common among IE peoples simply destroys the arguments of the pro Aryanists Indus. Nowhere in the steppes of Russia can rice be found as a staple diet. The Sredny Stog culture , barley is used , the Androvono, also barley,the Vedas and the Avesta used barley,the steppe culture of Kazakhstan also, used barley as well as the Scythians. Isn’t this enough evidence that the Indus could not be Aryan?
    Now, I wonder who would speak up on the Indus and its supposedly similarities to call itself as Aryan in origin. But all their arguments are only polemics because not one of the above can apply to the Indus to support its claim as an Aryan entity.
    HORSE TRADE: Aryan life on the vast Russian steppes could not have been possible without the existence of the horse and chariot. Apart from their daily life of living and struggling to exist on the harsh plains, they took comfort from their possession of their prized animal, the magnificent horse. It brought them wealth, prosperity and land. Their migrations were possible, they were able to raid and fight to garner food and riches but most of all they traded their horses among their different clans and peoples. In exchange they obtained the most superb brands of stallions and steeds. They raced and gambled, they sacrificed them and made war and raids to expand their occupation and culture. This is the most significant difference between the Indus and the Aryans. Indus society was more or less sedentary and urbanized , not rural and pastoralized. Horses and steppe culture were not part of their civilization and to equate them as Aryan in origin is pushing the envelope too far. There is the religious rite of horse sacrifice, solar worship and swastikas so elaborately put together by the Aryans and IE peoples in their various cultures. If the proponents of the Aryan Indus can show me horse trade in the Indus cities, I am prepared to accept their arguments and so are others. In the meantime, they have no trace for such a transaction.
    Apart from the above, there are certain fields which I will lay out here that can only be from the origin of steppe life with its customs, rites and its nomadic style of living.

    THE REALITY OF DADHYANC: The Rgveda gave us a chilling description of the story of Dadhyanc and how his head was severed and until now this story was considered a myth by historians and writers but they got the shock of their lives when archaeologists discovered that the myth was true- discovered on the steppes of Russia. (LET THEM EAT HORSES. Institute For Equestrian Studies 1997 by Dr. David Anthony) He writes:

    The horses’s head was thought to be a source of power by itself, an idea that seems to have survived among the peasant cultures of Europe. One of the most intriguing myths in the Vedas concerns a man, Dadhyanc Atharvan, wh learned from Tvastr , the maker god the secret of making mead, an intoxicating hone drink. The Asvins , or the Divine twins who are themselves occasionally represented poetically as a pair of young horses insisted that Dadhyanc tell them the secret of the mead. He refused. They cut off his head and replaced it with the head of a horse, through which he became an oracle and told them the secret they desired. In other hymns in the Vedas horse heads flowed magically with honey.
    These ritual themes have been investigated archaeologically the IAES and its sister organization in Samara, Russia, the Institute for the History and Archaeology of the Volga. Excavations led by Dr. Igor Vasiliev have unearthed ritual deposits of horse heads at Syezh’ye, a Copper Age cemetery dated about 4500-5000 BC. in the Samara River valley in Russia. On the ancient surface above a group of nine Copper Age graves, Vasiliev’s team found two horse skulls lying with various ornaments, broken ceramic pots, and stone tools within a redstained patch of powdered red ochre. The horses obviously were part of a funerary offering , the oldest of its kind yet found. At Dereivka on the Dnieper River in the Ukraine, the now famous horse with bit wear on its premolar teeth was part of a head and hoof deposit at the edge of a settlement dated about 4200 BC. It was found with the remains of two dogs, which probably were part of the same ritual offering . In a grave in the Elista steppes south of the lower Volga in Russia, excavators found the skulls of 40 horses deposited in a Catacomb culture grave dated about 2500 BC. But the most fascinating discovery of this kind was a find that could have been the grave of Dadhyanc himself.

    At Potapovka, near Samara on the Sok river, excavations conducted from 1985 -1988 exposed four burial mounds or kurgans dated about 2200-2000 BC. Beneath kurgan 3, the central grave pit contained the remains of a man buried with at least two horse heads and the head of a sheep, in addition to pottery vessels and weapons. After the grave pit was filled, a human male was decapitated, his head was replaced with the head of a horse , and he was laid down over the filled grave shaft. This unique deposit provides a convincing antecedent for the Vedic myth. Now, lets analyze this story and see what it tells.
    A story like this in the Rgvedas would simply not have been narrated had it not been experienced before in their homeland. The unearthing of the burial mound is enough evidence that the Vedic Aryans were from the steppes and nomadic. The whole story is now coming to pass. Those who reject or consider the Aryans as people from the Indus civilization are now silent. How can a story related in a holy book can come true on the Russian steppes if it was not part and parcel of the culture of its people. Secondly, the writers of the Vedas knew these stories and retold them for future generations.

  31. Quote
    Neville Ramdeholl (subscribed) said February 14, 2009, 12:43 pm:

    Hey guys, Whatever happened to the theories of Frawley, Rajaram and others? I think it is time to review their theories.

  32. Quote
    Abdul jamil khan M.D said November 19, 2009, 9:51 am:

    Dear all,
    It has been really interesting reading;It seems most of the writters seem to defend “indo-euro-aryanism” and linguistic racism
    by default.This is all old stuff. Look at cumulative evolution out of africa. Aryan/semitic model is biblical creation model imposed by british in 19th century that had lead to ” hindu-british Aryan brothers” versus ” semitic arabic apologist muslim” ethno religious cultural divide and indias’ plunder ( by british) and “india’s holocaust–partition messacre”( 2 millions perished). In anew book ( urdu/hindi an artificial divide, african heritage etc) i have tried to integrate out of africa and mideast farmers revealing a cumulative Indian culture based on ecological evolution;This exposes Biblical aryan/semitic racism ( 6000 years oid) as priestly
    fraud/politics and discredits terms such as ” hindu,muslim, judeo-chritian civilisations as politiacal fraud; civilisation/languages
    are based on ecology/evolution and NOT on Adam/eve/ or hindu creationism.
    Book ( 2006) has some interesting reviews. will help the debate move away from religious/national fundamentalism/racism.

  33. Quote
    jogi (subscribed) said November 29, 2009, 3:48 pm:

    In continuation of the discussion whether Aryans were local or foreigner, the story of Ramayan is another proof. On comparison of Illiad and Ramayan, the biggest thing that come out of it is that Ramayan is nothing but the copy of Illiad. Homer wrote Illiad sometimes 3000 years ago WHEREAS Ramayan and Mahabharat was written about 1000-1500 years thereafter. The histoical evidence suport the invasion of Aryans on India. Ramayan appear to be carbon copy of conceopt from Illiad vis a vis deep affection of two brothers, kidnapping the wife by the ruler of an island country, war betwween them so on and so off. This further confims the theft of Greek literature by so called Indian writers with a view to please the invaders and imposition of the same as religious text. It is strange tha Iliad is never taken as a part of the religion unlike the Ramayan in India. This further proves the copy cat nature of Indians to please those in power.-Jogi

  34. Quote

    /** Homer wrote Illiad sometimes 3000 years ago WHEREAS Ramayan and Mahabharat was written about 1000-1500 years thereafter.
    **/

    I dont know about dating of Illiad.. But what substantiation we have to date Ramayan or Mahabharatha?

  35. Quote

    Merely submitting what a wise man with the nick name The Army – submitted on another site to the ‘rants’ from Neville the master of baffle them with b’lshi’t if you lack the brains to dazzle…
    His questions were unanswered by Neville there, so I post here again 3 years later.

    “And yeah, one more thing…Neville…Sanskrit is a language, not a script. And what was found at Indus valley was not a language, it is a script which still lies undeciphered.

    That script may very well turn out to be Sanskrit shlokas/hymns.”

    I hope Neville (Ramdeholl) reads this. Don’t wanna waste our time, so I’ve put it point-wise. The following points just cannot be ignored about this AIT/OIT controversy. And I need an answer for each of them by anyone who has the right answers:

    1) If the ‘light skinned and mostly blonde haired and blue eyed’ Aryans had really invaded India and settled here thereafter, then why aren’t such people with such ‘white’ features found in India now? If it is because of centuries of racial intermixing, then how come one can still find some quite dark skinned people in India but not central Asian/ European type ‘white’ skinned people in India? Even the light brown skinned people found in the far north of India in places like Kashmir aren’t as fair as the ‘Aryans’ are considered to be.

    2) The Aryans divided themselves into 3 classes. The fourth class was the lowly ‘Shudra’ class, explained by the European historians as the Aryan conquered Dravidians’ class. By this logic, all the high castes, esp. the Brahmins had to be white/ light brown skinned and the people belonging to the ‘Shudra’ class had to be dark brown skinned. And yet, many dark skinned Brahmins and light skinned ‘Shudras’ can easily be found in India – both in north as well as south. And upon that, inter-caste marriages, esp. high and low caste ones, are still rare in almost all parts of India.

    3) How come almost all the light brown skinned people in India (considered to be the descedants of the original Aryans) belong to the cold climate locations of India like Kashmir and Himachal and the dark brown skinned (considered to be the Dravidians themselves) belong to the warm climate locations? This suggests that skin colour in India has more do do with the climate and atmosphere of a particular region in India.

    4) If the Aryans were outsiders in India, then why do their spiritual-cultural-social compilation ‘The Vedas’ do not mention any outside cities, rivers and mountains? Why do they only mention the places that are found in India, as their sacred most? Why not some place in Caucasus or Iran?

    5) If the Dravidians’ Indus valley civilization met its end at the hands of the invading Aryans, then how come no weapons, horse remains, broken chariots and burned buildings were discovered in and around the valley?

    6) How come there was (and is) no conflict or confrontation of any kind between the people or north and south India, ever? How come Brahmins (the highest Aryan caste) are present at both the locations? They should have been concentrated in the north.

    7) If Aryans were outsiders in India (and not the insiders), then how come ‘Swastika’ – an Aryan symbol – was found on some indigenous Indus valley seals?

    The invading Aryans have been described as either nomadic or semi-nomadic people. It is difficult to imagine that such nomadic people could write anything even close to the complex Vedas.

    9) India (or more specifically Hinduism which forms 80% of Indian population and which considers the Vedas as its highest spiritual-cultural-social authority and ‘Swastika’ as its religious symbol) does not have any oral or written account of any ‘Aryan invasion’ or any north-south or white-dark divide, past 3500-5000 years of its existence. Infact, the Britishers were the first ones to talk about all such things in India, to the utter shock of the Hindus.

    10) No race, religion, nation, group, caste and community on this planet that claims an Aryan lineage, has been able to preserve the Aryan devised socio-cultural traditions and symbols on a CONTINUOUS BASIS. Only India, with its Hindus, is an exception to this. Look at Iran – everybody knows that Aryanism (Zoroastrianism/ Parsis) is dead there now. Islam has taken over. And the funny thing is that almost half of the total Zoroastrians in this world live in India now! Look at Caucasus – just a few pieces of historical findings, and that too of no religious, spiritual importance for the people living there. Look at neo-Nazis and Pan Aryans- just 150 years back they and their forefathers hadn’t even heard of the term ‘Aryans/Aryas’.

    These above points do not completely destroy AIT, but they make such a mockery of it (AIT)…….
    Reply

  36. Quote

    The below ebook details about the the politics of indology in western academia, particularly that played by witzel & co..

    http://www.indicstudies.us/Dossier_on_Witzel.pdf

  37. Quote
    Bala (subscribed) said June 28, 2013, 2:23 am:

    This has been a long discussion to follow and I am not a historian to boot, but I have to note that not a single piece of genetic evidence has been considered in this whole discussion.
    There is plenty of genetic evidence now (pls search for Dr Ramaswamy Pitchappan’s work) that suggests that the earliest Indian genetic marker that is still found in existing populations dates back to 70,000 yrs ago. Dr Pitchappan convincingly has considered the genetic evidence to suggest that the Aryan migration and racial intermixing could not have happened. (I also see no one convincingly suggesting that the mountainous passes of the Hindukush could be navigated on horseback. This is a geographic barrier to horses arriving by land, but arrival by ship during trade is very possible.) If Indian civilization did indeed originate from Africa that long ago, the historic dates of Ramayana and Mahabharatha as derivable from suggested celestial events within the texts have a better chance of being accurate.
    Note about Chandragupta Maurya defeating the Greeks: from what I have gleaned, the names of Chandragupta are either Sandrocottus, Androcottus or other variations in Greek, but none mention the “Maurya” dynastic title. Have to wonder why? Now, there have been many Chandraguptas just within the Gupta dynasty, which isn’t even today not uncommon for Indian parents to choose a main name from their forefathers. There may even have been a Chandragupta before the Maurya king. The Arthasastra doesn’t mention yavanas, which is what Greeks and Indo-Greeks were known as. So, some events are likely to be anachronistic in Indian history.

  38. Quote
    senthil (subscribed) said July 22, 2013, 5:19 pm:

    /** This has been a long discussion to follow and I am not a historian to boot, but I have to note that not a single piece of genetic evidence has been considered in this whole discussion.
    **/

    Not just genetics.. even the current historic dates established by western historians have been found to be wrong, and inaccurate, as many archeological evidences has been uncovered..

    Apart from that, i personally got to know so many historic stone and copper plate inscriptions in our region.. these inscriptions had a very detailed multi-calendar dates, along with astronomical positions of various nakshatras.. The kaliyuga calendar has been present in almost all inscriptions, along with saka or salivahana or vikrama calendar dates.. and based on this, the known history of tamilnadu dates back to Kaliyuga- 600 to 800 . which means 4500 years before.. (present kaliyuga year is 5116) ..

    The recent discovery of Saraswathi River by ISRO, and findings of over 1000 archeological sites along this dry river basin has proved that the core of our civilization is NOT indus, but the saraswathi river, which is NOT mythical but real..

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/2073159.stm

    the excavations at dholavira and dwaraka had again proved that the dates of the artifacts are much older than what western historians had predicted.. There is a intense politics going on, because if the westerners accepted the recent findings, then most of their history books, will be obsolete, as the dates and chronology would all become invalid..

    /** Dr Pitchappan convincingly has considered the genetic evidence to suggest that the Aryan migration and racial intermixing could not have happened
    **/

    There is a sociological angle to be considered.. the jathi setup of our society and the closed kinship within each jathi ensured that people did not mix with foreigners, as the marxists historians are propogating.. Right from brahmins to the shudras, everyone preserved their community lineages..

    Whereas the entire europe was invaded by anglo-saxon tribes (Germanic Tribes) , and local people were forced to assimilate with them.. During the peak of Roman Empire, the invasion of germanic tribes were checkmated at Rhine valley, and after fall of roma empire, they spread all over..

    The western historians had imposed their own history upon us, and formed a story of aryan invasion (Like their invasion of germanic tribes)..

    Its time to throw away all these colonial history.. we were highly settled civilization much earlier than present chronology..

    Just look at the mantra recited by brahmins – “Jambudweepay, bharatha varsha, bharatha kande….”

    Jambu dweepay —-> Eurasia
    Bharatha Varsha –> present south asia = pakistan, india, bangladesh, burma, thailand, cambodia, indonesia, south china..
    Bharatha Kanda –> indian sub-continent – pakistan, india, bangla, burma, ceylon

    There had been 56 dhesams in this bharatha varsham, which is found mentioned in many copper plate inscriptions..

    So our people had very clear definition of the geography we live in.. but we mentally strangled in western definitions of india..

  39. Quote
    senthil (subscribed) said July 22, 2013, 5:30 pm:

    There is a novel called “Krishna Key”, written by ashwin sanghi.. he had interwoven so many historical data in to anthropological thriller..

    http://www.thehindu.com/books/article3734207.ece

  40. Quote

    senthil…..i heard that the time of alexander invasion after his defeat he forcefully took some of vedas and bramhins along with him.because only they found pytogrus therom n some meny like this…..
    first my doubt is…if vedas are written by indians…k let it be….but why can’t we think that the people who invaded us may extend the original one…let me give clear example..C developed by dennis …may be when he is developing the language at his time,he too never ever expected that what ever he is developing is going to use in such a manner that where works are goig with out human intervention…..by consediring that the original vedas may be extended r altered by the people after pass out of original people….
    and the second thing is……in kamba ramayana or some other version i read that baratha and satrugna on their return from maternal home they saw that people doing transportations using snow dogs……that means that area may be consider as russia …

  41. Quote

    now in present era no one knows what excatly writtend in all vedas….so we cant cllaim..who wrote ..
    some say mecca is siva temple….
    if it is true their is no god for muslims….some say that jesus after crucifixion came to india lived near himalayas under the leadership of budda……only our indian peole will tell all religions are under hindu gods and ours is great….is it necessary.to say like this….why can’t we listen swami vivekananda or adi sankaracharya…who always said that god id one….
    swami vivekananda in his complete works said that if any other country people will say a story in one way,but our indians will narate in 20 ways…it’s true….

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