Why do bad things happen to me? – Part 1
TweetLooks like it is the season for resurrecting old thoughts on this blog. It is Kumaran’s turn to write something that he wrote 10 years ago. While you enjoy the post, please check out my 8.5 minute crystal ball gazing presentation with audio from the ICT East event where i shared the stage with Infosys CEO & Wipro CFO. – Sukumar
————————
This is something which I wrote 10 years ago as a note to myself. Now that there is something called internet I thought will share it with other. It is a long one so breaking into 2 posts, so readers get a chance to read it. Read somewhere recently that internet users attention span is around 6 mins on a averrage nowadays. Was it Airtel which advertises – “Impateience is the new virtue”..my blood boils when I see that advertisement.
I have asked this questions to myself so many times. In fact as a child (when I was 8 years old), I had come to a conclusion that people are born to go from one form of suffering to another. Life is nothing but trouble, pain or a struggle.
There are a lot of things we aspire for in life and strive for it. Some things we get some we don’t. But always we feel that we have lost more than we gained. The losses seem to be always more than our gains.
We put so much effort into things we do to get the expected results. But when all the effort goes in vain it becomes very painful. It hurts even more when you see people less hardworking, less skilled achieving successes without any effort.
So do these bad things happen because
1. There is some big power plotting against our well-being ?
2. Is it our karma? (Fate)
3. Is it our previous birth’s sins?
4. Or am I not good enough? – Even this point can be proved as valid for all failures, I personally will accept it only in some cases. Because I feel that at hindsight after an incident it easy for people to judge that there is a better way of doing it. It is easy to say “Tendulkar should not have played that bad shot and got out, he should played it another way”. But if we can tell the same thing before he had played it , then there is some validity to that statement.
” Why? Why? Why? Why me? Why me? “.
Even after going through hours of personality development courses, self-confidence building measures we are still at the same stage. These questions eat into our peace of mind and take away our sleep. These thoughts take control over our lives that we cannot enjoy it any longer.
The Victim: For some reason we feel that we are being the victims of some cruel game that is happening. We feel helpless that we are unable to do anything about it.
The fear:A fear strikes deep into our heart. The fear that we will never be able to get what we want in life. There will be somebody or something around the corner waiting to take something that rightfully belongs to us.
Loss of hope :We start losing hope that something good will happen to us. When we lose hope of achieving success then the energy or the drive in us vanishes making us very weak and small in front of the world.
The above thoughts have troubled me so much during the past 25 years (It was 25 when I wrote it) . They trouble me today. They will trouble tomorrow also. But one good thing that has happened to me over a period of years is that how long they trouble me when something goes wrong has been reducing drastically. (Today as in 2009 I can say this statement written 10 years ago is becoming true, these things have a effect over me for a shorter period of time)
The reason that I have able to reduce the time these thoughts bother me is trying to understand some basic things which are there right before us. But in these days of run, run and run, we hardly get time to look at ourselves, forget looking at our thoughts.
What I basically do is go through a set of thoughts, which help me calm me down. I believe having peace of mind is achieved by a healthy mind.
What do I think?..in the next post.. ( hope I have the effect of mega serial episode closure when you see this..:-) 
then I know I have some impact with this post)(to be continued…)
Kumaran – Interesting post. A very philosophical line of thinking for an 8 year old!
Here’s what I think:
Most people don’t count their blessings. An education, loving family/friends, a decent job, good health, life in a reasonably secure & free country – most people take these for granted. When we are depressed, thinking about what we have helps.
I don’t believe in Karma or Fate. By the law of averages, some bad things are bound to happen to all of us. That includes us. Those who believe in Karma/Fate may disagree with me & of course, they have a right to their opinion.
Also, people tend to be biased. How do we know the other person didn’t work hard enough? I find that – being fair to my opponents – helps me understand what I missed. This way, my chances of succeeding the next time around are higher. In the end, the world is not a fair place. So, if my failure cannot be attributed to my opponent’s merit – I can console myself with this thought: There will be a next time.
Looking FW to Part-2.
Priya,
Thanks for the thoughts. I started my thinking on these lines at 8 years it took me quite some time to get some clarity in them.
You are spot on in /* Most people don’t count their blessings */. We take things what we have for granted. Even simple things that being sure that when I wake up tomorrow morning I can be sure that my famil,kids will be alive. As families in Afghanistan,Pakistan,Sudan etc.. now that is a privilege.
Hi Kumaran,
Excellent Post again.
Let me share my thoughts for this question. I started looking answer to this question some time back in spiritual books and self development books.
The bad things or problems happen in everyone’s life is to make them learn or know some good things in life. We tend to appreciate good ones only if we would have experienced bad ones. During tough times, people tend to learn faster. In the book “Manase Relax Please”, Part I chapter I title “ithu daan ulagam ithu daan valkai”, explains the answers to the same question “why all these problems happens to me”. In tough times, we see the world around us in different perspective, we understand our friends much better than before, bond between family increases. I agree with you on the statement we often worry about what we dont have and we tend to forget on what we have.
To your question “these bad things happen because”, in my opinion I agree to all 4 options, in a way it is not because of 1, it is a mix of all four options. But everyone is given an option to overcome all these problems.
Thanks, Karthik
Hi Karthik,
I also read that book. Nice book explains things in a simple manner. Good point on how would be appreciate the good ones if did not know what the bad ones will be looking.
Anyways do read the part -2 I have a different perspective on this topic.
Thanks for oyur comments.
Wow..Kumaran very thought provoking post. Vedukku vedu vasapadi…everyone facing some problems during their entire life time, as you said most of it because of us, the issues because of us can be identified and fixed immediately by us. But there some we can’t do it any thing, those issues we can avoid it by withdraw from it. Good post…
Kumaran,
The collapse of social life is one reason, that immediately comes to my mind, for the sufferings of the people.. As often, from the very question “WHy Me”, the root of the problem comes.. We think ourselves in isolated, during difficult times.. when we feel part of a community/society/family, their support, will give strength to us, to face the difficulty..
Those who have successful families, will not get depressed.. Those who are part of good/supporting people, will not get depressed or let down.. It is only when we become individualistic, live life just for ourselves, and get detached from our relatives and surroundings, life becomes difficult..
I strongly believe in karma theory.. because, it gives a reason for my present sufferings, and it also gives me an inducement, and hope, that if i could shape my karma today, i will shape my future… (probably future births)..
actually, difficulty & hardships all lies in mental plane.. its only when we are conscious of it, we feel it.. if we are NOT aware / NOT considering those seriously, we can easily overcome it..
Part ! Chapter 1
Link to Manase Relax Please Book http://www.tamilcafe.net-a.googlepages.com/ManaseyRelaxPleasePart1.pdf
Kumaran
Good to see, midst this busy on line world you searching for some higher purpose… Good to see some company in this front… Am just reproducing few lines from my own blog almost on similar lines, comparing success / failures, good and evil…
http://ragsgopalan.blogspot.com/2009/02/musings-new-approach-to-problem-solving.html
“Good living is in balancing of the extremes!
Good & Evil, Right & wrong
Practical & Ideal, Joy & Sorrow
Man & woman, Yin and Yang
Inter & Intra, Hyper & Hypo
Over & Under, Anemia & Obesity,
Austerity and Indulgence, Addiction & Abstinence
Failures and Success, Problems and Solutions
Recognize
Joy is our sorrow masked
Success is our failure masked
For we weep about what has been once our delight
And this shall continue till we lit within our brightest light
Realize
We see shadows with our backs to the light
There aren’t shadows when we see the light
We blame the sun, we blame the light
For shadows hide how much the sun is bright
Realize
As we continue living life as fast lane drivers
For Success & Solutions are the accelerators
But Problems & Failures are the speed breakers
For a sea faring soul in an ocean called life
Success and Solutions are the ship driving sails
Problems and Failures are the rudders as brakes
If sails or rudder either is weak
Life would be still or toss and drift
Praying for a life without problems grave
Think of the mind that is absolutely naive…”
Senthil – I agree with you in parts.
One of the best drugs to fight depression – Loving family & friends. Sometimes even interactions with strangers. In short, other people. Isolation is the worst way to handle it, in the long run.
In many cases, people probably make a mountain out of a mole hill. They take their problems way too seriously. This will only make the problems worse.
Where I disagree with you:
You have a misconception on what individuality is. And this misconception colors your perceptions wrongly. Its not separating from others, its not the same as being alone/lonely/an individual. Individuality = Having opinions that you have thought thru or felt strongly & exercising them. It means giving others the same space that you want. Like all traits, it has a degree. Some people may have more individuality than others, etc.
Perhaps you’ve formed precipitate conclusions by reading articles that malign individuality. Or you’ve only observed immature people bungle thru their lives proclaiming they are individuals.
You should get acquainted with happy, well adjusted, mature people with individuality, that share their lives with their family/friends.
Raghu ( Rags Gopalan),
Welcome to this blog and thanks for comments.
Loved you poem and theme. Bad things are like rudders/brakes which help you align in life. Nice perspective.
BTW did not know about your poetic skills in college. Looks like the corporate has awakeded a poet in you.
Senthil,
Thanks for the comments.
Other people and interactions are a source of energy for me as well.In fact for me&wife we find it boring to go out by ourselves. We fee so empty without people around.
I agree with Priya, “individuality” does mean being self-centered or selfish. It is just you have a clear opinion or belief of something which is yours and not our spouse’s ot parent’s or society’s belief. It could have been inspired any of the sources I have mentioned. I like being an “individual” who is very open-minded but interacts/shares/learns from people around actively.
Subba,
Thanks for the kind words.
Interesting post Kumaran. Made me think a lot. Priya has a good point about people not counting their blessings as well as people overestimating their own hardword in comparison to others.
Here is my 2cents:
Bad things happening have a much greater psychological impact than the good things because happiness is an inference we need to draw – good family, good job, good friends. This is why probably it is harder to count the blessings. Edison once said, people miss good opportunities because it comes dressed in overalls and looks like work. In the same way, happiness comes dressed as mundane things in life which everyone seems to have. So to infer happiness from what seems like routine occurrences is harder. On the other hand, bad things usually have a real impact – someone gets hurt, sad, loses money, people fall sick/die etc – no inference is needed.
I believe strongly in what i call Instant Karma – doing good begets good and doing bad begets bad. The payback is quite swift (Karma controlling next birth is insidious. perhaps invented to exert social control over the lower castes. i hate that aspect of Karma and don’t believe in it).
Now why do bad things happen to good people. The thing is, Mahanadhi or Pursuit of Happyness type of unending misery is rare perhaps even for the purely bad people. Of course, we tend to talk about these because like i said bad things makes news. On an average (for 90% of people), i am sure bad things happen fewer times to good people, but we are tuned to observing these making us ask – why do bad things happen to good people.
Hope that helps.
Sukumar – Excellent comment. I too believe in Instant Karma, as you described. If we are good to someone, chances are, that person will be good to us. Likewise about doing bad things.
Plus, selective memory, as you say, plays a part.
What about unusual blessings (such as winning the lottery or getting a coveted promotion at work)? Perhaps people take even occurrences like these as their due? Do people get used to good stuff quickly, but whine about all the bad things that happen to them? Is that what you say?
Sukumar,
Thanks for thoughts.
Good point about inference, extends to point made by Priya about unusual blessings. We never go with a tooth pick or replay these providences or good things which happen. Unconsciously our ego generally qualifies them as “because I am talented or good” and when we fail it is something else could be 1 fo 4 points I have mentioned.
Instant Karma (Newton’s 3rd law) I agree. But extending it to say the payback reward may not be in the way you expect it.
Priya,
It is funny how the mind works. Mind tends to forget bad things in past like the scenario “When I think of college”- fun / frolic comes to my mind and not assignments and punishments ( i was not a fruit (pazham)
) in college. But I had a bad accident on a highway driving by myself, when I think of driving “No” is the only word that comes to my mind. All the fun / breeze in the face never come to my mind. I just contradicted myself. That is what I kind interesting. It could be weightage I attached to them at that moment. I am not sure. 
Kumaran,
I think you summarized the thought process or reaction what many people think when they come across any event – good or bad.
IMHO, at least 70% of what we come across as bad is due to our own actions. If we go by categorizing these events, for most cases (in the order of impact on human psyche) as follows
1) Ego – Most of us feel that why we did not anticipate/ prepare for it
2) Relationships – Again there is a lot one can do before a relationship becomes shaky
3) Financial shocks – Well there is hedging, insurance, planning and saving that many can do. Lack of financial education is not an excuse. Also not effectively using credit is another issue.
4) Karma items – accidents, sudden deaths, serious sickness etc we cannot do anything. Having a strong balance of mind will perhaps make us recover fast. But in my opinion, we have to face it and go through those emotions as it is nature and probability. We are again lucky here, with social networking – both online and old school, the support we get is tremendous.
Sukumar’s Instant Karma – I think this is the best way to handle most of our day to day interactions. Be good and automatically that will make others do good to us.
I had an interesting conversation with one of my friends – he is worried that one serious attitude guy (an old team mate) went through short cut and achieved something we all are waiting for a long time. My answer for that was ” Friend, you have two happy and healthy kids, wonderful wife (one of the nicest persons on the world), nice lifestyle, great position in the company, good organization you work for which keeps ethics as top priority for everyone, nice house and two cars, and you always think good about others and almost everyone you meet tries to become your friend. But the other guy who went ahead of you has only one thing which he got through questionable means. He always turns Green with envy when he sees others achieving things, he has a serious insecurity in life. 90% of people who interact with him doesnt go away with pleasant feeling. In what way he is better than you and in what way you are inferior to him”. My friend has to agree.
Vamsi,
Thanks for the thoughts. Can’t but agree. Your ancedote of your conversation with your friend is perfect for this.
Priya,
I am NOT against Individuality.. I am writing about individualistic life style.. One should have a strong individual thought process.. but not an self-centered life style, that doesnt care about others..
Btw, i commented based on my own experience.. My childhood life was individualistic without individuality.. I was always thinking about myself, but without any individual thought process or opinions.. and later, i gradually changed and now i have social life, but with some level of individuality..
I had often faced the question “Why Me”, .. The only answer is to accept things as it is.. we will move on to life, and probably we will be in better position than we expected..
Vamsi,
Your comment is excellent.. getting obsessed with others is one of the important reasons for dejection.. and this particularly happens for those people, over dependant on materialistic things for happiness..
I often wonder how the poor people are happy, inspite of hard times.. Its because, they have a commune life, where happiness comes from other people, rather than materials.. they find happiness in sharing resources, which facilitates community interaction..
Really insightful questions Kumaran,I guess you have had the courage to write some thing which is present in all our hearts..Good work on that.
Some really interesting discussions happening here and I would like to add my 2 cents to it
I feel some how common thread on Karma here .As Sukumar puts it some could believe in Instant Karma some could believe in past Karma.
So either way our situation/future is getting affected by our actions ..If one believes that its past actions that matter then he should do good things at this moment in hope that his next Karma will better ( the question he should probably ask then is not ” why me ” ,but he should look at the sufferings of others and ponder “why not me “…This is defined as Buddhahood in Karmic religions which is an evolution of the mind”)
But for people who dont believe in Past Karma,but in instant Karma again if ur suffering this moment it is akin of proverb ” As you sow ,so you reap”.So if u do something good now u will get something good immeadietly and the same holds good for bad.
So my crux is: ur actions need to be good.It really does not matter if ur induvidualistic or in a group…u still need to do good things .
Thanks Priya. Yes, there are some unusual good moments such as promotion etc. But it is the mundane things that have to contribute to a overall state of happiness. And that comes based on inferences, which probably is harder to do. Whereas on the other hand, no one is permanently having bad things happen (i am excluding the abjectly poor people from this discussion). But still, each bad thing happening has a big impact leading to an overall state of unhappiness. Not sure this is accurate. I am basing this entirely on how people are talking about bad things as if those happen disproportionately.
PK Karthik,
The problem with Karma going back in births is that it becomes a doom loop which you cannot get out off. If i am born an untouchable, i am told that it is because of my sins in my past life. How do i go and fix that? Is their a past life machine? Of course not. This is how people were kept under control by the society. They could not possibly object to their masters because what can their masters do about what they did in their past lives? This is why it is insidious and I hate it.
Hello,
I can think of two things.
1) There is an adage “Everything happens for good”. So every bad things/actions will bring you or make you learn some good/positive things for your life. Everyone’s tolerance and resistance level increases when they overcome the bad events.
2) This is regarding the Karma with previous birth. We tend to find reason for every action. Sometimes we don’t get to know the reason or solution or cause for a problem. Instead of leaving it as a null set, human nature is to find an alternate. And an alternate is “previous birth karma”. As no one can argue becuase no one know what we did in previos birth.
Personally I believe in Karma theory, and the same thougts have been said and discussed in Bhagavad Gita.
Sukumar,
Untouchablity is a bad by-product of the Karmic theory:IMHO Karma has been abused by the uppercaste Hindus .But that does not make theory per say wrong and if system is abused by men of power it does not necesarily mean that system is faulty.I feel its more to do with misrepresentation and misunderstanding of the theory.
/** Untouchablity is a bad by-product of the Karmic theory:IMHO Karma has been abused by the uppercaste Hindus .But that does not make theory per say wrong and if system is abused by men of power it does not necesarily mean that system is faulty
**/
I agree with karthick.. India was rich by all standards before britishers.. It is difficult to think, that any community would have suffered due to poverty at those times.. The system of annadhanams in temples which was widely prevalent before britishers ensured that no one suffered from famine or poverty. Hence, we can very well assume, most people are happy, including the shudras..
The real perspective of karma theory on varna system is that a person can climb the ladder and become a brahmana in the next birth.. Later when east india company colonised india, all of the wealth was drained, and as a result, poverty, famine, was prevalent.. In that case, the same karma theory could have been mis-interpreted to find a reason for the suffering of the poor communities..
Vivekananda says, that every person in this world has to be uplifted to brahmana stage.. But what is happening now is the reverse, where all four varnas are degraded in terms of virtues in life.
i recently came across this link, which was very interesting.. it discusses about the behaviour of generations before independance and after..
http://www.opendemocracy.net/globalization-vision_reflections/east_india_company_3899.jsp
\\But when all the effort goes in vain it becomes very painful.\\\I face this situation a lot…
I nodded my head after reading each and every line of this post…
One thing to grab from your post is Time will heal everything…..It also educates us to become cool under stressful situation…
Annapoorni,
“But when all the effort goes in vain it becomes very painful.” This is a problem for almost everyone in the world. If I understand correctly, you are expecting something as a result on every effort you put in. I once had an interesting discussion with my friend on similar topic. As per Bhagavad Gita, do you duties without any attachment to results and it will bring all the happiness in your life. This is not easy to follow as it is said. But following this principle will not bring any negative thoughts if your efforts didn’t bring any fruitful results. During college days, we do lot of things and still it is memorable and happier days, as we dont think about any results or benefits.
Thanks,
Karthik
Karthik & PK Karthik,
When the previous birth aspect of karma theory was formulated, probably there was some benign intent such as trying to explain why inequalities exist. But by explaining inequalities using what we did or didn’t do in previous birth, they created a doom loop for people born in underprivileged/disadvantaged situations (i used untouchability as an example). This part of the karma theory is wrong.
The fact that the theory is inherently flawed is not connected to the fact that it was exploited by upper castes, which of course they did by the droves, setting India back by millennia.
As an overall principle Karma is sound as in, if you did good, you get good. But it happens quite instantaneously, as in, it happens in one lifetime.
Annapoorni,
I totally understand what you are telling. Yes it becomes very PAINFUL.
The way I try to handle is the method in Part-2 of this blog. If I look at the result and ask myself -”How can I say with 100% confidence that the result is bad?”. the naswer I find in most cases is “no I am sure if it is bad”. When this thought come to you from deep within the pain goes away.
I am sure Part-2 of this blog explains that in a greater detail.
Kumaran,
I read somewhere that we go through a lot of trials and tribulations with kids and the sum of such events could far out weigh the happy ones. However, the “quality” of such happy events is what makes an impact on us and when one looks back, one tends to remember these happy spots.
I think the same has been said in some comments about the fun times that we had during our college days. Once, in BITS Pilani, we calculated that on an average, we had a test once every 1.75 days. At that time, each of these tests added a lot of pressure and angst on us (Of course, there were a studious few who enjoyed this process of learning as well
. But, when I look back, it is the fun times I had with my friends that I remember the most.
So, what can I do? With my kid, I should enjoy the ‘process’ of raising her and do my best. In BITS, if I had enjoyed the process of getting educated, I would not have felt the pressure so much. To state this in a philosophical way, if we enjoy the means to the end, perhaps we would not see setbacks as disappointments. I have seen certain friends of mine do this very well, even at a young age. I am still trying to imbibe this.
Sukumar,
I totally agree with your statement “As an overall principle Karma is sound as in, if you did good, you get good. But it happens quite instantaneously, as in, it happens in one lifetime”. One has to keep doing good to get good in return.
Reason for unequalities should not be realted to Karma theory in any ways as you said.
Let me try with an example for previous birth karma theory,
We hear lot of news about new born baby suffereing from some problem around the world. The reason can be anyone around the baby or environment or no reason. Most of the time we end up with third option. So lets see the third case we were not able to arrive on the conclusion of the problem. As I said in earlier comment the reason is null. But that is not acceptable with everyone, since it is a new born baby, in this case we need to go backwards before birth. So the path chosen is previous birth.
Also, doing good things will not only benefit for this birth, it will get good for all his future births. If we everyone agree in this statement, then if we believe we have future births, then we might also have past births.
Karthik,
I don’t believe in reincarnation. I can produce several alternative explanations for the “the new born baby problem”. Now if you believe in it, that is your right.
My objection is to create an system around this and force people to believe in it and thereby keep the downtrodden people in a doom-loop which they can’t get out of easily – a self-fulfilling prophecy.
If you don’t agree with me, let us agree to disagree.
@Karthik,
\\As per Bhagavad Gita, do you duties without any attachment to results\\\i always keep this in my mind….
\\This is not easy to follow as it is said\\absolutely true…but once followed i am sure the results would be really good..
@Kumaran,
I am yet to read your part-2…will read it to know more insighful aspect of this topic…
Sukumar,
Thanks for your comment. I agree with your second point on “droom-lopp a self fulfilling prophecy”.
As you said, everyone has different view on this subject and there is no single defined solution or reason.
If someone questions me on the confindence lelel, these are just thoughts in my mind.
Thanks for your understanding Karthik.
/** The fact that the theory is inherently flawed is not connected to the fact that it was exploited by upper castes, which of course they did by the droves, setting India back by millennia.
**/
Sukumar,
.. or atleast two millenia, to land in the golden gupta period 
If exploiting karma theory will set back india by a millenia, then i wish, this theory be exploited more and more, so that india goes back NOT one, but three millenia back, so that we land in the glorious harappa mohenjadaro civilization
/** But by explaining inequalities using what we did or didn’t do in previous birth, they created a doom loop for people born in underprivileged/disadvantaged situations (i used untouchability as an example). This part of the karma theory is wrong.
**/
1. There are two contradictions here.. when all castes practiced untouchability equally, then how is it attributed to higher caste over lower caste.. i have asked this question few times in the past too.. One SC caste practices untouchability with another SC caste, and this is still prevalent..
2. Karma theory does not condemn underprivileged sections to be there for ever.. Rather, it provides a path to them, to attain a higher position in next birth, by living a pious or spiritual life.. in that case, how can we say this theory had created a loop for them..
/** My objection is to create an system around this and force people to believe in it and thereby keep the downtrodden people in a doom-loop which they can’t get out of easily – a self-fulfilling prophecy.
**/
It is not karma theory which forced downtrodden people.. rather, its the inhuman and cruel british exploitation, that created the downtrodden people, by artificial famines.. karma theory was infact manipulated by vested interests, (mostly by academic circle controlled by britishers, and later by communists), to divide the indian society..
As karthick said, just because a theory is misused, we cannot deny it or doom it..
PS:
One of my earlier comment on the same topic is held in moderation..
Senthil,
1. There is no contradiction here. even if all castes did untouchability, it is still wrong.
2. yeah right. listen to yourself again – doing good, which is code word for “performing the role assigned to your caste” in this birth will lead you to higher life in the next birth. Fantastic. I can’t believe you are defending this philosophy.
3. The birth-based theory was created in my view by the upper castes – collusion between kshatriyas and brahmins to keep the rest of the population under control. It is as insidious a system as anthropology has seen so far. The fact that British exploited the caste system later to their advantage is despicable no doubt, but who asked Indians to have the evil caste system in the first place?
4. Please do not defend the birth-based karma theory and its evil twin – the caste system.
Sukumar,
/** There is no contradiction here. even if all castes did untouchability, it is still wrong. **/
The contradiction here is that untouchability is often projected as higher caste vs lower caste problem, which is not true..
Btw, in one perspective, untouchability is also a GOOD thing..
/** yeah right. listen to yourself again – doing good, which is code word for “performing the role assigned to your caste” in this birth will lead you to higher life in the next birth. Fantastic. I can’t believe you are defending this philosophy.
**/
Performing a role assigned is different from living a spiriutal life.. I only mentioned about spiritual life in my comment..
Btw, performing the role is not a bad thing, even if its birth based.. we need not defend this philosophy, and at the same time, we need not ridicule or offend this philosophy..
/** The birth-based theory was created in my view by the upper castes – collusion between kshatriyas and brahmins to keep the rest of the population under control.
**/
THis is an academic propoganda, which actually fits the european society rather than indian one.. only in the eurpoean society, there was a collusion b/w the church and the rulers, and because of that, empror constantinople destroyed all other pagan religious temples, destroyed all historic evidents, and forced everyone to adopt christianity..
If there is an equivalent in india, we can only attribute it to budhism and jainism, who colluded with the kings to impose their dogma on the common people..
And i think, Budhism was the most aggressive advocate of next and previous birth and karma theory.. if karma theory is wrong, then budhism itself is wrong…
/** Please do not defend the birth-based karma theory and its evil twin – the caste system. **/
Sukumar.. there is no need to defend anything.. If its good, we have to accept it, and if its bad, we need to reject it..
However, as the very purpose of this post, the good and bad is based on our perspective and perception..
The caste system is an excellent system, and one of the strengths of hinduism.. Hinduism would have perished like the persia, if NOT for caste system..
The beauty of caste is that a person is insured of a career, the moment he was born.. That’s why we did not have the problem of unemployment..
The real discrimination is the habit of branding it as evil, without ever considering the sentiment and opinion of the core constituents of the caste system.. You can go and ask Even the SCs.. they will support their caste..
/** The fact that British exploited the caste system later to their advantage is despicable no doubt, but who asked Indians to have the evil caste system in the first place?
**/
The caste system before britishers were dynamic, healthy and interdependant.. It is only after britishers collapsed this system, it became discriminatory and racial.. so still the real culprit is the britishers..
Senthil,
1. only in your opinion can untouchability be a good thing. i cannot believe you are saying that.
2. performing your role according to your caste is the basis of the caste system. this was existing much much before British landed in India.
3. Religion and Monarchy (then) and Religion and Politics (in the modern context) are hopelessly intertwined the world over. It was true in India and is true in modern India as well. The whole caste system was created to preserve the power of Kshatriyas and Brahmanas. This is not due to anyone’s propaganda. It just needs a good reading of Indian history.
4. I don’t know why you seem intent on proving that Buddhism itself is wrong (big problem – since you argue Buddhism is part of Hinduism, Hinduism also becomes wrong, unfortunately for you). If a religion has a birth-based karma theory that is used to suppress the people/control the people, that is a flaw. That doesn’t mean there are no other good aspects of that religion. No religion is wholly wrong or wholly correct. There is no such religion on the planet that is wholly correct. Full disclosure – I am an agnostic and i don’t support any religion.
5. There is no basis to say Hinduism would have died if not for the caste system. in fact, i would argue that it is because of the caste system that many lower castes convert out of it. The main reason Hinduism is around is because of the sheer number of adherents. Another reason is that it is a very diverse religion holding within it, many many systems, that proselytizers find it hard to come up with a single strategy to convert Hindus en masse.
6. “Caste system is beautiful and there is no unemployment because of caste system.” If you truly believe in this, I don’t know what to say to this. I am shocked. Can you please show me a significant number of SC/STs supporting the caste system? When i say significant number, you need to show me some type of opinion poll, where it has been done across India including a statistically valid sample of SC/STs. Do you know of any such study? Please point it to me.
7. Caste system predates the British by millennia. that it was dynamic and healthy before the British is unproven. I have gone through Dharam Pal and it actually shows the opposite. One day i will publish why Dharam Pal’s writings show the true colors of the caste system.
I can`t stop myself commenting…
I am really shocked to see that a modern educated person can support untouchability.
Untouchability is a social evil. ‘A’ discriminates against ‘B’ based on his caste or race and ‘B’ and ‘C’ discriminates against each other based on his caste or race does not mean that ‘discrimination’ itself is justifiable (because everyone is involved in discrimination)..Social theories are not accepted or rejected on such narrow plane of flawed reasoning.
Colonialism should be vehemently rejected but it is also not fair ,to blame the British for all the evils in the society.To site an eg Sati was not introduced by the British (I believe no one will dare to justify Sati today)and it was under Lord Bentinck the -then British governor general -that it was prohibited.
Untouchability is higher caste vs lower caste problem because the higher caste enjoys the plum of it and as a caste they have no reason to cry foul .While the lower caste is the one which has to face economic and social downtroddenness, just because the members were born in the caste.The higher caste possess all tangible wealth and the untouchables cant get education,cant enter temples,and cant get enlightened because they are just untouchables and that means a stigma by birth.
The belief that there is ‘after life’ is up to the personal religious belief of the person but there is no reason to make a social system based on this dogmatic belief and to tell a particular child in the lower caste that ‘since you are born in this caste it is cos of ur karma in the past life and u have to face the discrimination all though out this life’.
I think we have come far from these outdated rigid groupings and dogmatic beliefs in this 21st century so that it does not appear odd when I do software programmes even though my father is not a programmer..A better just society is that we can aspire for.To quote Dr Martin Luther King “the arc of moral universe is long but it bends towards justice”
Arun,
I am again repeating my statement..
In one perspective, untouchability is a good thing..
Apart from these, i am also explicitly making my stand clear on the following issues..
* Sati is a NOT an evil, but a noble virtue..
* Child Marriage is NOT an evil, but a good one.
So, because, i have stated all these, i would be branded as backward, cruel, and whatelse.. and hence forth, whatever i say is bullshit, and i should be excommunicated from sastwingees community..
Can i say this is one kind of intellectual untouchability and discrimination.. The kind of response i am getting, because i had said something that is against your belief, indicates, that you are not comfortable, with what i am saying..
In such case, how would be your reaction to me? your perception on me changes, and i suppose, the kind of response from you would be affected.. all because, i had said something against what you, (or say majority of this community) believes..
Naturally, i would not be welcomed, atleast for a short period.. or atleast, you all would have formed a opinion on me, based on my statement..
If such things happen among educated, and rationale community like sastwingees, how can we accuse the other communities for practicing untouchability or discrimination?
Most of the times, we are often discussing based on beliefs and ideologies, and NOT based on analysis of facts and truths..
Senthil,
“In one perspective, untouchability is a good thing.. ” Why don’t you also explan your view on this.
Not only on this and also on others.
You may be correct in your perception, it gives everyone an oppurtunity to think in different perspective.
Thanks Arun and Karthik. Senthil, as Karthik says, you may want to explain why you think Untouchability, Sati and Child Marriage are good things? You can express any opinion you want. But when you say such things, obviously people will express shock as we have done.
@ Sukumar,
“If a religion has a birth-based karma theory that is used to suppress the people/control the people, that is a flaw. That doesn’t mean there are no other good aspects of that religion. No religion is wholly wrong or wholly correct. There is no such religion on the planet that is wholly correct. Full disclosure – I am an agnostic and i don’t support any religion”
I totally appreciate ur stand ..i guess same thing can be applied to Karma theory .Untouchablity was bad but that does not mean the theory is flawed just like relgions Karma philosophy too had its flaws( I would call it as loopholes which were manipulated the powerful)
Buddha and Mahavira who spoke of Karma disowned casteism ,so not all Karmic fans agreed to Casteist system of upper caste Hindus.
Again I dont support untouchablity if people tried associating that with Karma it means that they r abusing a system.
/** Buddha and Mahavira who spoke of Karma disowned casteism ,so not all Karmic fans agreed to Casteist system of upper caste Hindus.
**/
Its not just buddha and mahavira.. Almost all rishis and saints in hinduism had disowned caste system.. there is a rule in hinduism that one should not look at the birth root of the saints, while getting the blessings..
So, just because buddha and mahavira disowned caste system, normal people need not do the same.. Everyone lives, as per their profession and dharma.. and its the dharma for the rishis to leave caste system..
Hinduism never had the concept of following personalities.. Rather it prescribes duties to do and the virtues to adopt.. hence there is no question of following budha or mahavira or any other rishi…
In almost all gurukula, the disciples only learn from the guru, and doesnot imitate their guru.. A guru guides a disciple to seek truth,,
Note – I had to edit this comment to change higher life to higher position. Thanks Senthil for pointing out.
—
PK Karthik,
Thanks for understanding my viewpoint. You are right in that if a theory has been misused by people then it is not the theory’s fault.
If you do believe in birth-based karma theory, that is your right.
However, I think the birth-based Karma theory has one major flaw. It creates what we know from psychology as a self-fulfilling prophecy.
Think about Karma from the perspective of a someone (Person X) born in the lower castes or amongst untouchables – Person X is told – “this happened because Person X did bad things and accumulated bad Karma in the previous birth. the only thing Karma theory advises that Person X can do is, to do good in this life, accumulate good Karma and be born as a higher
lifeposition in the next birth”.If you don’t agree with my interpretation of Karma theory, see Senthil’s statement in the comments above copied here for your convenience verbatim.
“2. Karma theory does not condemn underprivileged sections to be there for ever.. Rather, it provides a path to them, to attain a higher position in next birth, by living a pious or spiritual life.. in that case, how can we say this theory had created a loop for them.. ”
Senthil’s viewpoint on Karma is what is commonly understood as Karma theory. I am sure there is some esoteric definition of Karma theory that 5 people in India (i am exaggerating of course) understand that doesn’t have this flaw.
But for the regular folk like me, Senthil’s view is what holds.
Think some more about Person X. Nothing that the Person X can do in this birth will get them higher
lifeposition in this birth. Person X can reach a higherlifeposition only in the next birth.Think some more about when Person X comes in contact with an entire community of people (the downtrodden who all live together as well) who believe that they are in this doomed state this entire lifetime and their hope lies in the next birth. Everything they see in their society reflects this belief. Over time, entire generations start believing in this flawed theory of life.
This is the doom loop. This is the self-fulfilling prophecy. It is extremely hard to come out of this type of doom loop and challenge established authority/wisdom/power etc. Which is why very few people were able to do it in the past. Ambedkar, Ayyankali, Kakkan – you can count them in your fingers. This is why i called this system insidious. It eviscerates the power of human endevor.
Maybe you will see the way this plays out as abuse by the powers that be. But to me they just exploited a basic flaw in the theory.
I hope my reasoning on why birth-based Karma theory is flawed is clear to you. As i also said, i do believe in Instant Karma. If the birth-based aspect of Karma is not included, Karma is a profoundly great model of life.
/** Think some more about Person X. Nothing that the Person X can do in this birth will get them higher life in this birth. Person X can reach a higher life only in the next birth.
**/
Sukumar,
Here what do you mean by “Higher Life”?
Exactly what you meant by Higher Position in your statement. I am editing my comment to fix that.
/** It is extremely hard to come out of this type of doom loop and challenge established authority/wisdom/power etc. Which is why very few people were able to do it in the past. Ambedkar, Ayyankali, Kakkan – you can count them in your fingers.
**/
Sukumar,
What was the caste of ambedkar, and what was their status some 300 years before?
Secondly, ambedkar was sponsored by the maharaja to study in London.. ie, the so called kshatriya, helping a dalit to pursue a higher study.. where does higher and lower caste conflict come here?
ambedkar was ditched later by the congress party, and he had little say in drafting the constitution, although he is attributed as its architect..
If we take the present case of chamar caste, to which mayawati belongs to.. they were the wealthiest caste today in UP, and that’s why BSP was able to thrive as a party there.. No one prevented the rise of this caste, because, no others able to do the job of this community… ie to work in leather products.. they had the full freedom to pursue their kula profession, and raise economically..
This is the kind of freedom that indian people had because of caste system.. Every community had the exclusive right over their kula profession.. here, people develop as a community, rather than as an individual..
/** Exactly what you meant by Higher Position in your statement. I am editing my comment to fix that. **/
To be frank, i do not have clear idea on this
..
However, is it right to classify the work of the labourer as lowly job?
Senthil ,
I oppose the statement made in support of untouchability and pointed out the method of reasoning you have used.
It has nothing to do with intellectual untouchability,discrimination or anything at personal level.
Any person has the right to have his own personal view and you have been welcomed to support your stand
Guess that you are not fully aware of the graveness of the issues you are supporting and why a modern India is trying hard to get out of this past!!..
I oppose untouchability,sati etc not because the Indian law which considers even the glorification of sati or promotion of untouchability ,childmarriage as a serious offence but because I cant find any reasonable ‘reasons’ to support these things except if the basis of argument is primarly concerned with the fulfilment of a particular dogmatic theory rather than making a workable social order valuing human life and valuing dignity in his life.
Senthil,
I oppose the statement made in support of untouchability and pointed out the method of reasoning you have used.
It has nothing to do with intellectual untouchability,discrimination or anything at personal level.
Any person has the right to have his own personal view and you have been welcomed to support your stand
Guess that you are not fully aware of the graveness of the issues you are supporting and why a modern India is trying hard to get out of this past!!..
I oppose untouchability,sati etc not because the Indian law which considers even the glorification of sati or promotion of untouchability ,childmarriage as a serious offence but because I cant find any reasonable ‘reasons’ to support these things except if the basis of argument is primarly concerned with the fulfilment of a particular dogmatic theory rather than making a workable social order valuing human life and valuing dignity in his life.
The only positive aspect for the thoeritical that untouchability must have some positive in some angle.This blog gives an interesting perspective.
http://ragsgopalan.blogspot.com/2009/07/when-veil-untouchability-is-our-birth.html
In short durin times of pandemic pratice “untouchability” across all humans will reduce the spread of the flu.
@ Sukumar,
Thanks for the explanation
“I hope my reasoning on why birth-based Karma theory is flawed is clear to you. As i also said, i do believe in Instant Karma. If the birth-based aspect of Karma is not included, Karma is a profoundly great model of life.”
I was trying to bring in these exact points… what u call instant Karma is one of 3 aspects of Karma and no where does it talk about caste division. It talks about higher position ,but then the higher position is defintely not caste its got to do with knowldge and realisation ( aka Buddhahood).This is what i understood from Tibetiyan Buddhism ….
@ Senthil,
I dont agree with u at all on untouchablity as dharma for one simple fact,people cleaning night soil or disposing corpse etc should not be in same professions for generations together just based on caste.People can do it if they want based on choice and deft not based on birth…
One more thing if we follow a rishi/mahan/guru we need to follow his ideals too after questioning him and getting a proper reasoning.Following their principles does not mean apeing them if we dont follow them ,then we dont need a Guru in the first place we can lead a normal life…
PK Karthik,
first a full disclosure. Based on my extensive readings of history and castes and the karma theory as practiced by regular folk – i believe that the caste system is evil and the birth-based karma theory is its evil twin which put people in the same professions for millenia – the doom loop i mentioned in previous comment.
I knew that you were going to quote some esoteric definition of Karma (you said Tibetan Buddhism in your comment as your source.I am sure you know that Tibetan Buddhism is far far away from the average Hindu Indian’s life).
However, I am willing to have an open mind towards this. you can write a post on your blog as to why you think Karma theory as practiced by the average Hindu is not connected to castes and/or birth-based. I would urge you to quote from sources that are Hindu that are read by average people. If your proof is rigorous i will accept.
Until then, i hold the view that i described in the first para of the comment. Fair?
/** Colonialism should be vehemently rejected but it is also not fair ,to blame the British for all the evils in the society. **/
This is like saying, murder is an evil, but we cannot blame the murderer..
i could not understand, why colonialism is never considered as evil?
When caste system, sati, untouchability is instantaneously declared evil, Why there is so much hesitation on declaring capitalism, communism, colonialism also as evils?
/** Based on my extensive readings of history and castes and the karma theory as practiced by regular folk – i believe that the caste system is evil and the birth-based karma theory is its evil twin which put people in the same professions for millenia – the doom loop i mentioned in previous comment.
**/
Sukumar,
Branding a system, which is being followed by 90% of india, including christians and muslims, as evil, is one of the most discrimination that could happen.
There is no issue when you say you do not believe in caste system.. There is no issue, when you point out major flaws of the caste system or the karma theory.. these all leads to rich debate… But its really hurting to see you repeatedly branding caste system and karma theory as evil.. (i would like to point, there are supporters of caste system and karma theory)
Its also a demeaning statement, to our indian society and our national history..
Also, Branding anything or any one as evil, is more an act of hatred, rather than a opinion..
/** which put people in the same professions for millenia **/
How can the above reason make the caste system as evil?
When people remain/put in the same profession for millenia, it means, the knowledge in that profession is continuously transferred for the thousands of years. Because, farmer communities/castes in india remained in that profession, the knowledge of farming is transferred till date. Because brahmanas remained in their spiritual profession for millenia, the vedas are carried forward till today. Because, the vaishyas remained in their profession for millenia, india had thrived with abundant trade for millenia..
Because, the shudras remained in their profession for millenia, the manufacturing sector was strong in india. (here i would like to highlight, that it needs lot of skills even for the labour profession, which we all consider as lowly)..
We can discuss if that continuance of hereditary professions is right or wrong in modern perspective.. But, its entirely discriminatory, to cite this as reason to brand the system as evil.. Its akin to branding an entire nation or an entire society as evil.
/** I dont agree with u at all on untouchablity as dharma for one simple fact,people cleaning night soil or disposing corpse etc should not be in same professions for generations together just based on caste.People can do it if they want based on choice and deft not based on birth…
**/
Karthick.. i never said untouchability is a dharma.. you have wrongly understood..
Secondly, the profession “Cleaning Night Soil” was not part of the original caste system.. It was first created by invading muslim rulers, who made the “Infidels” (Normally the defeated warriors who later became SC) to clean the night soil.. after british invasion, this profession became widespread, due to expansion of urban centric life.. (in one way, each one of us are responsible for continuation of that profession, by virtue of our life style. )
and regarding disposing corpses, you are comparing the present day profession with the caste one.. In the rural side, when a person dies, a variety of caste people participate in the mourning ceremony.. The dead body is handled not just by one caste people, but by the family and there relatives. The body is taken as procession to the burrying place by the family members and relatives. The labour caste will either dig the earth for burying, or arrange wood for fire ceremony.. So, all these was a shared and participatory work..
However, the corpse disposal mechanism of present day is a commercially exploited profession, where the entire process of disposing the corps is left to few individuals, who are paid for doing that duty.. we cannot compare that to the village life style..
Btw, in villages, the SC & STs has a relatively decent life style, a secured profession, basic education.. they are NOT commercially exploited, as it is done by the government and other corporates/business enterprises today.. if you observe carefully, the toilet cleaners, sanitation workers, and many other so called menial jobs, are done mostly by the SCs, whom the government employs till today and for a meagre salary..
such exploitation is NOT there in the village caste system..
/** Any person has the right to have his own personal view and you have been welcomed to support your stand
Guess that you are not fully aware of the graveness of the issues you are supporting and why a modern India is trying hard to get out of this past!!..
**/
Arun.. please let me know, when i supported untouchability?
We are debating here, and hence taking relevant stands on vital issues.. I said, untouchability in one perspective is a good thing, and i dont know, why you assume that i am supporting it..
And i havent yet explained my perspective, and you have gone to oppose my reasoning..
I feel, in a progressive debate, we do not end in extreme polarities, like supporting/opposing, etc.
@Senthil
/*This is like saying, murder is an evil, but we cannot blame the murderer..*/
It is more like an incompetent police officer catching a known murderer and charging him with all the proven and unproven murders in the city.
/* When caste system, sati, untouchability is instantaneously declared evil, Why there is so much hesitation on declaring capitalism, communism, colonialism also as evils? */
We are comparing apples and oranges.
/*i could not understand, why colonialism is never considered as evil?*/
The term ‘colonialism’ itself is almost always used connected with the exploitation of colonized regions and in a negative sense..as far as I know..
/*The contradiction here is that untouchability is often projected as higher caste vs lower caste problem, which is not true.
Btw, in one perspective, untouchability is also a GOOD thing..*/
Reading this one and going through other comments I thought that you were genuinely supporting a cause for untouchability .So tried to point out in previous comments.
Senthil,
Are you trying to show us a perspective there was atleast 1 good point about caste system and it cannot be 100% bad? Based on the fact here can be nothing which is 100% bad?
Pure rational thinkers should perhaps avoid using the word Karma – its an overused word that takes on so many different meanings.
Coming to the point of “Good gets good!” – Is it substantiated by data?
I think in a social context, “doing favours are usually returned if the target of the favour is carefully picked”. If not, many favours are likely to go unreturned…
Good or bad is pure perception and driven by the context of the social models that the individual operates in.
Surendar,
Thanks for the comments.
Regarding favours not returned please check out my post Three buckets of action .
Yes you are correct. Good or Bad is pure perception and context-based.
Thanks Kumaran – read the post and skimmed the comments (there were lots
). Interesting post.
I was not sure if the point of ‘charity does not necessarily mean a good act’ was brought out in that post or in subsequent comments.
Surendar,
I was referering to the previous not for the part to show the point of ‘charity does not necessarily mean a good act’ .
But to categorize the help we do to others.
Senthil,
I am sorry if my statements offended your sentiments. I will convert my statement to the following – “the deeply flawed caste system and the deeply flawed birth-based karma theory have caused incalculable harm and incalculable backwardness to Indian society” Would that help you?
Interestingly in your list of generational professions you conveniently leave out the downtrodden professions. Just so you know other than some in-human things, there is nothing lowly about any profession. But it is our society that made some professions higher in the pecking order and made the profession into a caste and birth- based. Obviously you have the people from the higher castes supporting the system because it favors them. This is how inequalities were created and made to persist for millennia.
BTW, i hope in your new found zeal for getting hurt by statements made by me, you will also apply the same standard to your comments about christians, muslims, british people etc. And i am only talking about comments you make on this blog. You are free to write what you want on your blog. If you agree to that i will stop branding our outdated and flawed practices as evil. Deal?
@ Sukumar,
I think I may have not made my stand clear in my statements.I have never supported Caste system in any forms .I have supported the Karmic theory and it was not related to any relegion,so i dont agree the esoteric part as all along I have quoted Budhism and Jainism along with Hinduism
/”you can write a post on your blog as to why you think Karma theory as practiced by the average Hindu is not connected to castes and/or birth-based. I would urge you to quote from sources that are Hindu that are read by average people. If your proof is rigorous i will accept. /
So I never said that Karma theory practiced by average Hindu is not caste based ..All I said was that Karma was just misused by higher castes.
I can definlty take up the challenge and write about Karmic theory per say and my take along with sources but not definitly not the way that you have mentioned as it is defenitly not my stand.
/** It is more like an incompetent police officer catching a known murderer and charging him with all the proven and unproven murders in the city.
**/
But the problem is the judge is not even acknowledging the proven murder.. he is either trying to cover up or make it insignificant.
/**
We are comparing apples and oranges.
**/
So what.. is there any rule that when apples are evil, orange cannot be
.. the problem is that you hate apples and love orange..
/** The term ‘colonialism’ itself is almost always used connected with the exploitation of colonized regions and in a negative sense..as far as I know..
**/
But why cant it be evil, when the effects of colonialism is thousand times more discriminatory and oppressive than caste system..?
/** Are you trying to show us a perspective there was atleast 1 good point about caste system and it cannot be 100% bad? Based on the fact here can be nothing which is 100% bad?
**/
Kumaran,
Exactly what i wanted to say.. there was not just one good point.. but rather thousand good points about caste system.. but the problem is that we are conditioned in a negative way that we fail to see the positive..
If that hesitation against caste system is removed, and the hatred subsides, and the mind open towards factual analysis of caste system without any blind accusation, i am certain, that there are lots of positive things that we will find in caste system..
But the very mention of the word caste receives an instant response “Caste system is evil”.. then how can we ever analyse it neutrally?
In most of the previous academic articles, we find only accusations and branding, and not any rational analysis.. there are few exceptions as mentioned in previous post of this blog, like dharmpal, nicholas dirks, mckinsey documents , chambakalakshmi etc..
/**
I am sorry if my statements offended your sentiments. I will convert my statement to the following – “the deeply flawed caste system and the deeply flawed birth-based karma theory have caused incalculable harm and incalculable backwardness to Indian society” Would that help you?
**/
Thanks sukumar.. I am NOT offended because you criticise caste system.. you have the right to do that.. but, when we brand it as evil, it closes all doors of reasoning..
Evil is a semitic word, which is used to mention elements that oppose God.. Evil means, for ever bad..
Just as GOD has no reasoning, there is no reasoning for evil..
Thats why i am opposing branding it as evil.. we are often casually using this word evil in many instances, without considering larger negative significances..
/** Interestingly in your list of generational professions you conveniently leave out the downtrodden professions. Just so you know other than some in-human things, there is nothing lowly about any profession.
**/
Sukumar,
I have mentioned manufacturing industry to cover the working castes like blacksmith, carpenters, goldsmith, agricultural labourers etc.. I havent left out any professions..
Infact, there is no such thing called downtrodden professions in caste system.. There is only incompatible profession..
For a brahmin, who follows hygienic life, the community working in leather and flesh will be highly incompatible.. So as for a vyshya.. so, people viewed other communities only from their own culture and NOT from any universal definition..
/** But it is our society that made some professions higher in the pecking order and made the profession into a caste and birth- based. Obviously you have the people from the higher castes supporting the system because it favors them. This is how inequalities were created and made to persist for millennia.
**/
I can only say, your accusation is misguided and on a wrong target.. infact, this accusation aptly fits for the elite indians, who lives in urban india, exploiting every other community, and particularly the entire rural india..
In village caste system, there is NO pecking order of professions.. because, a typical village setup is highly participatory.. a true democracy, for the people, by the people and for the people.. but you will not believe this..
Before 1980′s the entire rural india had no concept of toilets.. can you believe this?
There is no sewages present in villages — can you believe this?
The above two are only present in towns and cities..
Now tell me, who is forcing people to work as soil cleaners or the sewage cleaners? Its the urbanites..
In villagers, the dalits had the freedom to build a house in public land which is available in plenty.. Even if he has no penny, he can survive there, either through annadhanams in temple, or from higher caste people..
But in towns, they were reduced to slum dwellers, where they cannot live without money..
In villages, every people know every other people.. the dalits know all the other caste people, and so as other caste people know all dalit people.. there is a sense of belonging to the village.. whenever, famine occured the landowning caste always came forward to help the dalits..
Even now, many of the dalit temples are built with active funding from other caste people.. in my village, a colony temple casted around 6 lakhs, and more than 3 lakhs was contributed by other caste..
Is such commune living possible in villages.. In how many places are the rich people living along with slum dwellers? Please show me one..
The rich live separately in a posh area, with all facilities, and the poor live in slums, with no facilities.. Is there any interaction b/w these two?
When a slum dweller comes to a rich mans bungalow, what will the security do?
But in villages, whenever a dalit comes to a landowner’s home, he was always fed with food.. he can share his emotions with the head of the family.. he can get some loan from that family.. he can ask for some guidance from that family.. whenever there is a problem with his neighbours, he has the right to approach any of the dominant caste for mediation..
These all happens still today in most of the villages, and in my village too..
Please tell me, does it happen in the towns and cities? Is there any such interaction b/w the riches and the poor slum dwellers?
I have lived both in cities and villages, and that’s why i could be able to differentiate b/w the two systems.. i am more convinced that the urban system discrinates much more than the rural system..
And finally, the very life of an urban system exploits the entire rural village.. the wastes from every house, gets accumulated as sewage and where does that sewage goes? It goes to the villages in the outskirts, where it spoils the atmosphere of the entire village.. the livelihood of the whole villages is spoiled..
Similarly where are those garbage dumps goes? Hope, you would have seen pallikaranai.. that was once a village, now used by urbanites for dumping their wastes.. is it not discrimination/
Next, what is the price paid to the food materials by the urbanites.. for one litre water, the price is 14rs.. but for one litre milk, the price paid is just 9 rs.. (i am quoting from selling price of my grandmother)..
Is it not a discrimination, that a MNC water company has the freedom to fix the price of water, but a villager doesnt have the right to fix the price of the milk?
The entire rural agricultural india is exploited for the comfort of the urbanites.. and this is much more worse than the accusation against the caste system..
Regarding karma theory, the negative connotation of this theory could have come only when indian wealth was squeezed to britain..
Normally people tend to find answers only in distress or sorrow.. no one asks “Why i am this much happy”.. but its quite normal for human beings to ask “Why so much suffering to me”..
So karma theory could have the best solacing reasoning to people in times of extreme distress..
For example, consider the case of bengal.. there were around 20 famines in around 150 years of british rule.. that means a one famine in every 7 years.. added to that, the british imposed tax even during extreme famine..
The severity of the famine is gauged from the fact that around one third of bengal population perished.. the situation went to such bad, that people even resorted to cannibalism due to hunger..
In such a situation, the karma theory would have really distorted, because of large number of poors and few wealthy people..
However, sukumar’s accusation of karma theory as a tool to suppress people doesnt hold good, during times of prosperity..
WHenever there is opportunity, the people had always the freedom to pursue that.. For example, the able bodied person had the chance to serve the king’s army, irrespective of his caste.. such opportunity was available during chakravarti shivaji rule, where he appointed officers irrespective of the caste..
also, we have seen that the kallars and pallars in tamilnadu, who were once warrior caste, were denotified tribes by the britishers.. so who is actually responsible for the present status of these communities..
Not to mention that pallars in tamilnadu, one of the SC community, rever Muthuramalinga devar as their spiritual and political guru.. I was surprised on hearing this from one of the person from that community.. the reason cited was, that muthuramalinga devar fought on behalf of both the communities, eventhough he belonged to a different caste..
Today, instead of using this historic link to forge unity b/w these two castes, the politicians are invoked on creating tensions..
PK Karthik,
I think from your comments here and elsewhere i can guess that you don’t support the caste system. I also agree that the Karma system was exploited by the higher castes.
However, the point of disagreement is whether the birth-based Karma system is flawed to begin with? I think it is because it creates a self-fulfilling prophecy.
It is not where you take the definition of Karma from that matters. What matters is, what do the commonfolk understand as the Karma System.
I would urge you to look at what the holy text Bhagavad Gita says about the caste system:
In the Bhagavad Gita, Ch.4, Verse 13
The Lord says:
“The fourfold caste has been created by Me
according to the differentiation of Guna (Rajas, Tamas, Sattva) and Karma;”
In the Bhagavad Gita, Ch.18, verse 40
the Lord says:
“There is no being on earth, or again in heaven among the
gods, that is liberated from the three qualities born of Nature (Guna).”
Gita Ch. 18, V.41:
“Of Brahmanas, Kshtriyas and Vaishyas, as also the Sudras,
O Arjuna, the duties are distributed according to the qualities
born of their own nature.”
Now before everyone launches on a tangent, Bhagavad Gita is one of the most profound works India has produced and has a lot of great stuff in it. However, it is also a tool that propagates the birth-based Karmic Theory which i view as deeply flawed and largely responsible for India not making the kind of progress it should have made by now.
Hope that helps.
Senthil,
Your village seems to be the Caste System Heaven – where everything is perfect. Before I answer many of the questions you raise, i have a few questions to ask you and please answer just based on what happens in your village? We can discuss what happens in other villages later?
1. How many people are there in your village (population)? Is it safe to assume that the main occupation of the village is agriculture? Or is there any other factory or mill or some such to provide a major source of employment?
2. You say there is no sewage in the village? That is very interesting. Does your village have dry toilets or toilets connected to localized septic tanks? Which system does your village use? And if people use dry toilets, how is the night soil removed? And if it is removed – who in your village is responsible for that?
3. It does appear that Dalits are in your village from what you say. Are people born into Dalit families treated as Dalits and people born into your caste (don’t know what your caste is) treated as from the same caste? Or in other words, is the caste system in your village birth-based? If it is not birth-based, how does it work?
4. Is there a pecking order or a hierarchy in your village – village headman, panchayat chief etc? Who takes these roles? And how are these people selected for these roles?
5. What is the role of women in your village – are women educated? If yes, what grade or class till which they are educated? I have heard from you in previous comments that women worked in the fields. What types of work women do in the fields? Are there women who own farmland and be the leader of the farm or actually manage the farm?
I would like these answers based only upon what happens in your village. please do not bring up other villages. I can read up on them myself.
/** Your village seems to be the Caste System Heaven – where everything is perfect. **/
Its something a sarcastic pre-assumption… i neither said caste system is heaven nor it as perfect..
I am giving present details and also the details 20 years before.. because, today, the traditional caste system collapsed considerably today, and hence any discussion on present day caste will not be correct..
/** 1. How many people are there in your village (population)? Is it safe to assume that the main occupation of the village is agriculture? Or is there any other factory or mill or some such to provide a major source of employment?
**/
As of recent general election, there are around 1500 people.. primary occupation was agriculture 20 years before.. however, a section of people, pursued transport business along with agri.. 20 years before, no major mills.. but now there are couple of poultry feed mill in the nearby village..
/** You say there is no sewage in the village? That is very interesting. Does your village use dry toilets or toilets connected to localized septic tanks? Which system does your village use? And if people use dry toilets, how is the night soil removed? And if it is removed – who in your village is responsible for that?
**/
20 years before, even i was defecating in nearby bushes..
there was no toilet at that time..
But today, there is toilet in every house including dalits.. and for cleaning that, we used to call concerned people from nearby town.. none of the dalit people in our village are involved in it.. they have a decent agricultural work, and today, they are in demand for it..
/** It does appear that Dalits are in your village from what you say. Are people born into Dalit families treated as Dalits and people born into your caste (don’t know what your caste is) treated as from the same caste? Or in other words, is the caste system in your village birth-based? If it is not birth-based, how does it work?
**/
Caste is all about kulams and gothrams.. gothrams are nothing but lineages.. ie, group of people belonging to same lineage belongs to a gothra, and they are brothers and sisters in relation.. group of gothrams, constitute a caste..
So, naturally, caste system is birth based.. I dont know what is wrong in it..
Just as we can’t choose our mother, father or brothers, we cannot choose our caste.. We inherit a caste in terms of lineage..
/** Is there a pecking order or a hierarchy in your village – village headman, panchayat chief etc? Who takes these roles? And how are these people selected for these roles?
**/
I dont know how we could call it as pecking order.. (probably we always see anything in terms of hierarchy)..
However, there is a traditional village setup, which is now defunct.. i dont know the exact setup .. but there are some popular roles, like “maniakarar, oor gounder, dharmakartha” etc.. I dont have any living memory of how this system functioned earlier.. but, i have seen, many panchayat judgements during my childhood.. whenever there is a problem, people in our village, call the panchayat, and debate the issue in front of the public..
Today, although panchayat is called sometimes, this system is collapsing..
/** 5. What is the role of women in your village – are women educated? If yes, what grade or class till which they are educated? I have heard from you in previous comments that women worked in the fields. What types of work women do in the fields?
**/
This is very good question.. The present role of women in our village is to sit in front of serials
.. however, twenty years before, the major role of women is to manage the family, rear cows, and participate in agricultural works.. the work was divided in such a way, that the husband will plough the field, and the wife will sow the seeds.. the husband will water the fields, the wife will remove the weeds.. like wise…
The cows are mostly looked after by the women head, assisted by the husband and children.. to summarise, it was a family profession, where every person has to take responsibility, otherwise, it will be difficult for all..
There is another point to note here.. earlier in one of priya’s post, she accused that women were not allowed to work.. actually, in villages, women had an equal share of work.. the problem is that priya may not recognize agricultural work as a job..
All the older women in our village knows how to read and count.. they may not be educated, but literate, due to a selfless teacher called “Athiannan Pillai”.. he was a pillai, a community, who was next to brahmins in education..
/** Are there women who own farmland and be the leader of the farm or actually manage the farm?
**/
Today, women also owns farmland.. i have often heard my relatives, when discussing about wealth of a family, they used to categorize it as “Wealth from wife’s side (popularly called as “Mamiar veetu sothu”) and wealth from husband’s side).
The land will mostly be in the name of the husband, but the produce from the land belongs to the family.. when the husband is there, he will be the leader of the farm.. if he is not there, the wife takes over..
In my grandma’s case, my grandfather was working in singapore for around 30 years, and my grandmother was managing his lands..
Senthil,
1. I didn’t intend any sarcasm. Sorry if it seemed that way. It is you who keeps commenting in any post about India how wonderful things are in your village. I was just curious and i asked the question.
2. Dry toilets are not hygienic to say the very least. for a population of 1500 people, maybe you don’t need a sewer system. your village does need a septic tank based toilet system which is quite easy to put up. This will avoid having to engage humans from other villages to clean it. I am sure you know that there are entire castes devoted to cleaning dry toilets. You may want to read about Dr. Bindeshwar Pathak’s work with Sulabh International. http://www.sulabhinternational.org/ .
I am sure based on this point you realize why cities like Chennai having millions of people need a sewer system? for your info, Indus Valley’s cities had a sewer system 5,000 years back. We lost all those ideas somewhere in between.
3. The birth-based caste system – you say nothing wrong with it. people from the dalit community or the toilet cleaning community wouldn’t agree with that. That is the biggest problem.
4. The reason i asked the pecking order question is because i want to find out more. Has there been a Dalit headman for your village ever?
5. Good to know that women had a fair share of work. Even in the cities lots of women stay at home and do household work. But sharing in the work and managing/owning are completely different things. Priya’s point is not (i agree with it) whether they work. The question is are they educated and allowed to have a career like men do? If you want to know why that matters – read this article
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/08/23/magazine/23Women-t.html?_r=2
6. Good to know that women are farm owners/leaders as well. I would urge you to find the % of that happening. Out of 100 men farm leaders, how many are women? Again, if you want to know why that matters, please read the NYT article i mention above.
Senthil,
This is in response to your comment http://www.sastwingees.org/2009/08/08/why-do-bad-things-happen-to-me-part-1/comment-page-2/#comment-12409
The whole line of argument trying to pin the caste system on the British is baseless. Why do you assume that in times of prosperity, controlling people of lower castes doesn’t happen? What data do you have to support that point of view?
There are inscriptions from historical times (100s of years before the British) which show ill treatment of lower castes. Even in the Alwar pasurams (which obviously pre-date the British) there is ill treatment of lower castes. Read the story of ThirupPaanAzhwar if you like. I am sure you have heard of Nandanar charitram. In a related note, you may want to read about the Nayanmar stories to know about the persecution of Jains, which you often claimed never happened.
I would urge you to read more about India’s history from neutral sources. If you just read right wing propaganda you will not understand India’s real history.
Senthil,
http://www.sastwingees.org/2009/08/08/why-do-bad-things-happen-to-me-part-1/comment-page-2/#comment-12408
This comment of yours take the cake. Urban people discriminate and exploit the rural people. And this they do intentionally? And for that to be proven otherwise, urban people should live amongst the slum dwellers? What kind of logic is that?
But the birth-based caste system which is systemic discrimination and intended to be that way is not discriminatory? I don’t know what to say.
Please move on from this discussion.
Sukumar
you had quoted 3 verses from the BG saying it links people’s castes to their birth. When i read your translation, I thought all the 3 verses don’t seem to be connecting caste with birth. Rather, it just seems to say, the composition of gunas determines innate nature and through the qualities evidenced, a person’s caste is determined.
That said, the lord does state that he created the caste system.
On your comment about azhwars, did the society not deify them? The society that deified them was not our current society – rather the old caste based society. The same ‘muni’ who asked thirupanazhwar to “step aside and be mindful of other’s presence” eventually carried him on his back.
Overall I agree with you that caste system in its “current and accepted form” is what matters – its the collective mindset of the system that counts. There is little doubt that it was exploited to help higher castes.
Senthil: I agree with you that caste system cannot be just blamed and termed evil. By the same token, the current democratic/capitalistic system should also not be termed evil. I’m sure enough and more social evils will exist whatever be the system – the point is, everybody should have a fair chance to succeed. If a society can give that, nothing like it.
Unfortunately, the current caste-less society also does not show any indication of such opportunities. It does provide a decent facade of being able to do that although I tend to think it is because we are at an inflection point in the transition from one type of social structure to something else and socialistic policies are still at play.
Sukumar,
Everything in this world is seen only in comparative and broader terms. For our personal life, in times of sorrow, we always want a comparing point, to console ourselves, or to feel good. Vamsi in his comments say, also highlights the strength of his friend by comparing with the other person whom his friend has some issues.
So basically, we always see our personal joys and sorrow as a relative element. Because, seeing things in isolated will blow things out, as priya had quoted. If we isolate a soft hearted ahimsavadi, even sitting, walking will be a sin, because, it kills some living beings. sweeping the house will be a sin because he would be killing spiders and other insects.
The same logic applies to a society / institution also. We have to judge and understand a system from a broader perspective.
Lets take for example the untouchability. We all know, the american slaves were over worked, the slave women were sexually exploited by the owner, the non-performing slaves beated up heavily etc. Some owners even justified the sexual exploitation, as a means to produce more slaves.
Suppose, if the american whites had followed untouchability like in our caste system, the african people would not have been beaten up, the slave women would not have been sexually exploited, and the slaves would have got the right and space to live their own personal and commune life.
In india, untouchability served as a barrier from such inhuman and extreme exploitation. For the dominant caste, mingling with the working caste means, outcasting from the community. This prevented from dominant caste youths from exploiting the women of the working caste.
Untouchability eventhough separated one caste from other, it gave a personal space to every caste in india, to live their own life, to have a family, to raise a children, and to have their own commune festival.
And from a broader perspective, untouchability is harmless, when compared to the brutalities that white people did to the african slaves. because in untouchability, one community keeps away from other caste, instead of persecuting them..
I dont know how many of the readers would accept the above point. But i strongly believe, that inspite of its odds, untouchability is one of the positive aspects, in such a highly diverse cultural society like in india.
I wish, all our societal and cultural issues be dealt in such a comparative mode instead of being isolated. Only then, we can have a confident society for us. Otherwise, we may be a confident individual, but a most pessimistic society.
/** This comment of yours take the cake. Urban people discriminate and exploit the rural people. And this they do intentionally? And for that to be proven otherwise, urban people should live amongst the slum dwellers? What kind of logic is that?
But the birth-based caste system which is systemic discrimination and intended to be that way is not discriminatory? I don’t know what to say.
Please move on from this discussion.
**/
Sukumar,
From your above comment, it seems, that you feel insecure about your belief getting broken down when discussing in detail
. that might be the reason, why you often resort to repeating those particular lines accusing caste system.
Its understandable that belief is part of one’s identity, and breaking a belief creates a sudden void, which we may not know how to deal with it..
However, we need to make a choice b/w beliefs and Truths ..
Let me conclude this discussion with the following unresolved questions.
1. When the sewage system itself is created by urban system, how can the traditional caste system be accused? The fact that none of the castes in villages do such menial jobs still holds true.
2. In villages, different castes live together, interact with each other, help each other, inspite of all caste problems. But in towns, the rich lives in separate posh areas, and the poor live in slums. Which is better?
3. Big Urban systems like chennai, require a sewage system to function. But where are those sewages discharged? In the sea, in the river, in the lakes, in the ponds.. In all the cases, the urban system exploits some other, to function itself.
In Coimbatore, the whole sewage is dumped to irugur village, forcing all its people to move out. The entire Noyyal river is now a sewage for tiruppur effluents.
Senthil,
We cannot justify social evils no matter what the underlying great cause/ reason is. We have to change and move along. Whether we ack or not, that is the fact. You are probably right about those who follow the system and do not violate the system for any compulsion. They may be happy (?). But it is great injustice to the society if those who want to go past these barriers cannot do because of age old customs. Just like, will you let a patient die because modern medicine is a western thought? We dont because we know it works.
We can go round and round, you can stick to your position. But that doesnt make this a debate useful because in any such process, we should understand others positions and move the position as our sample and exposure grows. For every model village you show, we can show 10 villages where exploitation is day to day activity. Dalits not exploited because there is untouchability in our society is one of the weakest arguments we can make.
Your other points on pollution because of lack of good waste management solutions is not a cause we should use to go back to medieval ages. It needs a fix.
Vamsi,
I wish, we could have free discussion without resorting to branding & accusation.. Good and Bad are highly relative terms.. Just like you had adviced your friend to feel good through comparison, i wish the same way is followed for social issues too..
Btw, do you feel, that the urbanites and particularly urban elites do not practice untouchability? How many of the elites, allow their children to play with slum boys?
/** Your other points on pollution because of lack of good waste management solutions is not a cause we should use to go back to medieval ages. It needs a fix.
**/
This is typical racism.. that people living in villages belong to medieval ages.. So, in your opinion, to be in modern ages, the urban system can continuously pollute the rural villages, making their living means sterile?
Senthil,
Racism? How? Please check my post.
I told if urban centers pollute villages/ water bodies, we should fix that problem by using effective waste management solutions. Solution is not to cutting back on the modern systems. I criticized the current situation of polluting the environment.
Urban Elites – they perhaps dont allow to play with my children leave alone slum dwellers. Do I accept that or not. I dont. That is also untouchability. It is bad. What is your point?
vamsi
“Urban Elites – they perhaps dont allow to play with my children leave alone slum dwellers. Do I accept that or not. I dont. That is also untouchability. It is bad. What is your point?”
whats the point? what is being done about it is the point sir.
Why comment on the past when the present is breeding its own evils.
Clearly, the urban-elite…slum-dweller differentiation is NOT a left over from the old world evil.
Thanks Vamsi for jumping in.
Senthil,
First you make up your mind. Sometimes you argue that caste system is a great system. Then flaws are pointed out, you cook up some random explanation like the one you have cooked for untouchability which defeats any possibility of using logical reasoning. Sometimes when you kind of get a sense for why the caste system is bad, you argue that the caste system was all glorious until the British came about. There is enough research that i have done to prove that is not the case, some of which i explained, like the Alwar story or the Written Inscription from 100s of years before British. You keep arguing this in a circular manner.
Please move on.
Surendar,
There is plenty more material available on the Internet that shows why the Bhagavad Gita supports the birth-based caste system. I am sure you can find it on your own.
On Thirupaanalwar’s story – yes he was deified, but try to ask the question – if it took a Tirupaanalwar such extraordinary effort to rise up above the caste he was born under, what happens to a regular Paanar. Please do not answer the question in this blog because i don’t want to discuss this issue further. You seem to have a position on the caste system and I have mine which i have spelt out clearly.
Let us move on.
Sukumar.
I understand your position on caste system. I respect your space. So, I will not go further on the topic.
However, I do request brief space to state my position on caste though; I don’t want broad interpretations to be drawn based on mere arguments to specific statements in the blog. There is little in it to give my position on caste.
My position: I don’t agree with the socially practiced caste system. However, I would rather focus on discrimination in any form.
As long as discrimination exists, I just think its hypocritical to criticize and single out any type of discrimination.
I hope India builds a society that allows free and fair treatment of individuals based on merit.
I apologize for dragging the discussion one step further.
Let me stop here.
Thanks Surendhar.
/** Racism? How? Please check my post. **/
Vamsi..
The attitude that anything other than urban system belongs to medieval era, is what i termed racism. Its a fact, that most of the urbanites hold this belief, that village or rural means, backward, and belongs to stone age.
I was mentioning such attitude you mentioned in your previous comment.
Other debates, i am leaving it now..
/** Then flaws are pointed out, you cook up some random explanation like the one you have cooked for untouchability which defeats any possibility of using logical reasoning.
**/
Sukumar,
The scope of logical reasoning, is infinite.. Its only the beliefs that will define the boundaries of the logics.
Sukumar,
The following article by Dunkin Jalki would be interesting to read, but would contradict the popular beliefs.. Hope, you will not reject this, because it is against your belief..
http://www.doccenter.org/docsweb/Understanding-Caste-System-Dunkin/contents.php
This research article had exposed the stereotypes about caste system, and how too much generic writing had concealed the real perspective..
With reference to the debate on night soil cleaning, that we had long back, i want to give one more reference..
The below book titled “Manual scavenging in India: a disgrace to the country By B. N. Srivastava, Sulabh International (Patna, India)” documents the different kind of jathis that did night soil cleaning.
http://books.google.co.in/books?id=-c6mNYorw7QC&printsec=frontcover#v=onepage&q&f=false
It has been more evident, that the advent of westernised cities, is the prime reason for employing lower castes in to night soil cleaning..
As such, it is NOT the jathi system , but rather the urban system that is the culprit.. and it is my accusation that in order to hide this truth, the urban people are shifting the blame on the rural jathi setup..