Can Michael Jackson ‘beat’ Rudyard Kipling to ‘it’?
Can Michael Jackson ‘beat’ Rudyard Kipling to ‘it’?OH, East is East, and West is West, and never the twain shall meet,
Till Earth and Sky stand presently at God’s great Judgment Seat;
But there is neither East nor West, Border, nor Breed, nor Birth,
When two strong men stand face to face, tho’ they come from the ends of the earth!
The Ballad of East and West —- Rudyard Kipling (1865–1936)
Time and again, Kipling’s Ballad of East and West comes to life when people adopt intransigent positions about culture(s). Numerous critics have also taken a pause to look beyond what had been analyzed as Kipling’s prejudice and imperialism. Slowly, it emerges that the East-West realities get replayed not just in the lands of the previously colonized but also in Euro-American societies. This is because significant Afro-Asian migrant populations and their subsequent generations have emerged to challenge issues of race, identity and multiculturalism.
I arrive at this question through the demise of the legendary pop star Michael Jackson. The news of his death was uncannily received in the same manner as the passing away of Princess Diana, Rajiv Gandhi and Benazir Bhutto. Time seemed to stop for a second as the news sunk in globally. While they were all celebrities and some had more in common with the others lives, it is how regardless of one’s own cultural background they felt that they had lost someone they knew very well. Such was the power of the images of these personalities.
Michael Jackson is however distinct among these icons. He was a pop star, musician, dancer and composer, had millions of fans across nations and continents, truly a trans-national following. Jackson’s performances have been aped reverentially by artists across the world including India. Numerous members of the Indian film fraternity paid tribute to the departed artist. In the global adulation that followed his death, how do we sift what Kipling had referred to as the East-West conundrum?
While several from the East did actually sit up and take note of the star’s passing away, in his lifetime they frowned upon his music. It was not ‘ours’ they argued! These are several whom one would term otherwise ‘broad-minded’ people who take objection to people from the ‘East’ taking an interest in ‘Western pop/rock’ music. I have come across some instances myself when a compatriot in a worried tone asked me ‘how can you listen to Madonna?’ I beg your pardon. What is the problem in listening to Madonna? In my compatriot’s analysis, her kind of music was not part of Indian culture. Since his origins were more in north India, he preferred any variant of Hindustani sangeet or even classical Hindi film music. Pass! But Madonna had failed in his perception!
Likewise, I was with another colleague listening to the song ‘American Pie’, the cover version sung by Madonna. My colleague shook her head rather disapprovingly. Her judgement was that ‘there was nothing in this music!’ The inference was that this is indeed inferior music compared to our classical musical traditions. This time the colleague was from the south and she too measured ‘American Pie’ against our Carnatic musical traditions. Madonna had failed again in her perception.
I tried to figure out the reasons for my colleagues distancing themselves from Madonna. First of all, it could be that she is a ‘Western’ icon. Second the type of music. It was clear that my colleagues were unimpressed with the music. The very manner and tradition of western pop seemed to be wrong. Indian classical traditions had an aura of almost religious respectability whereas these pop songs were rebellious to say the least, if not even castigated as downright “vulgar” in some way, at least sometimes their video versions.
I differ with both my colleagues. How can you not lend a ear, even in passing, to numbers such as “Like a Prayer’, ‘Papa don’t Preach’, ‘Evita’ ? How can I not be moved, for instance, by Michael Jacksons We are the World song written for famine relief in Africa? Did not dozens among our generations grow up on, to name a few, ’Boney M’, ‘Abba’, ‘Pink floyd’ and ‘Dire Straits’? Is there no ‘sound of music’ in them?
Do we need the fine data or the historical weight of the classical musical compositions to appreciate music? Is it not just the discerning ear and the appeal of the music to the heart and mind that makes for a catchy number? Tastes indeed differ but I refuse to be snobbish about someone else’s popular music traditions. As a friend described, what my colleagues missed noting was that both music (and dance) are universal languages and both classical and popular genres can help build bridges. Even within the Indian pop music scene there have been several cross-overs where classical musicians have rendered some very popular hits.
I have the greatest adoration for our cultural traditions. Our musical heritage (both classical and popular) is a source of inspiration. All I know is that what is different from my very own or what one may call ‘their very own’ does have some value. Perhaps great value. Each tradition, Each culture and Each performer/performance bring something unique to us. I suggest that we own that up. We do so in such a manner that people are ever in doubt about Kipling’s lines and perhaps he always gets disproved.
Perhaps the development of Indi-pop, re-mixes and numerous such variants both in India and the Indian diaspora is the answer to Kipling’s challenge. Besides the jazz-yatra’s, there have been numerous attempts at fusion music between the homeland and its diasporic population, a form of reverse export to the Euro-Americas. Take, for example, the attempt of the South Asian migrant populations in Britain in the form of the ‘Asian Underground‘ to blend elements of western dance music and the traditional music of their home countries. As a result of their efforts, South Asian music began to influence the UK’s pop mainstream. So, music is like a mighty river flowing both east and west! ***
Again, several are scandalized at the very mention of ‘re-mix’ music as to what it seems to have done to the original but is that not how ‘tradition’ lives on as fusion and synthesis of diverse strands from multiple imports/sources of origin. It ultimately boils down to the listeners choice but lets not narrow down those choices in the name of our tradition, culture and heritage. Precisely because these have been very absorbent and all-encompassing and richer for it. Its not the exclusion of musical traditions that we need to think of but their ‘complimentarity.’ For each tradition has its time, place and meaning.
Michael Jackson’s memory will continue to live on. His music will inspire generations of youth to come. It will cross national, religious, racial and several other cultural boundaries. How we respond to it is a matter of choice? In uniting the world through his music, MJ has thrown the gauntlet at Kipling .
If we see ourselves as throwing open the catalogue of world music to our young ones with a deep knowledge of our classical/pop traditions, they will grow with the knowledge of the choices available and the fundamental oneness of melody as that of human creation. Alternately, they will grow up as closed minds confirming what Kipling has charted out. I for one am for the former course. The floor is open. Lets turn on the music and the dance begin. R. I. P. MJ !
- – -
*** Some interesting readings:
The dawn of Indian music in the West[music]: Bhairavi
by Peter Lavezzoli
(New York: Continuum, 2006)
Indian music and the West
by Gerry Farrell
(Oxford: Clarendon Press, 1997)
Good one Abdul. Music is certainly one of the few things that truly unify the world. Music knows no boundaries as they say.
MJ is definitely one of the best unifying forces out there. In my view, it is very hard to be prejudiced about music. But a few people surprise us even in that department.
Thank you Sukumar. Indeed, music is a unifying force. The prejudice cuts two ways: one is from the dimension of ‘I am connossieur of classical music’ and this is ‘pop’; the other dimension is the East-West conundrum. There are instances where both overlap as cited in this post.
Nice analysis. It is sometimes too hard for puritans (read traditionalists) to accept the newer not-so classical forms. I second Sukumar’s view that music is one of those things that is truly universal. We might not understand the lyrics but we would still probably enjoy the tune. On the question of being pre-judiced, it is something that people have to grow up and understand that owning your identity and broadening your mind are not necessarily opposed to each other.
MJ was certainly an original genius wrt music (and an abs …. wid everything else).
Music is that something which can bring sheer joy. I remember this scene from the movie “The Shawshank Redemption” when the lead guy plays an Italian classical record inside the prison and the inmates who have been living in that prison for ages feel their first sense of liberation/freedom. In fact one of those guys says “I don’t know what those ladies are singing about but it sure is something very beautiful !”.
Thanks Vijay. I could not agree with you more. I have heard live and on the screen several European folk dances whose language I cannot understand anything but whose tune and the beat remain with me for a long time.
You have raised a very pertitent point by referring to ‘puritans’ or ‘traditionalists’ but like you say later that does not mean narrowing of the mind, does it not? It means an aversion to certain forms of fusion and all that but to look down on yet other forms as if they have nothing can be a bit distressing to say the least.
Good one Abdul. MJ was first english I listened to as a teenager by myself. My dad used to listen to Abba/BoneyM before. But to break barriers and mesmerize people before M(TV) era really no mean achievement and that too in a language which 80% of population does not speak. Really awesome.
Of course can’t take away the black disadvantage he had to fight.Too bad in his old days he could not keep up the glory. Someone like Parveen babi who died a lonely death.
Abdul you have brought the flow of the words so well….
\\Her judgement was that ‘there was nothing in this music!’ The inference was that this is indeed inferior music compared to our classical musical \\\many a time i create my own opinion about things..But that is absolutely wrong…
I agree with your pointer music is universal,it has got the power to unite people of different nation,even if we are not aware of the music…
Good post as always….
/** It was not ‘ours’ they argued **/
Yes.. It was not OURS.. they are right in their argument..
/** In my compatriot’s analysis, her kind of music was not part of Indian culture. Since his origins were more in north India, he preferred any variant of Hindustani sangeet or even classical Hindi film music. Pass! But Madonna had failed in his perception!
**/
Yes.. her kind of music was NOT part of Indian culture.. There is nothing to go craze about it..
/** Likewise, I was with another colleague listening to the song ‘American Pie’, the cover version sung by Madonna. My colleague shook her head rather disapprovingly. Her judgement was that ‘there was nothing in this music!’ The inference was that this is indeed inferior music compared to our classical musical traditions. This time the colleague was from the south and she too measured ‘American Pie’ against our Carnatic musical traditions. Madonna had failed again in her perception. **/
I too believe that western music, is inferior to Indian classical musics.. they had been successful in marketing their music commercially, and in creating a hype around it.. India had its own blend of music unique to it.. like how our ilayaraja combined the folklores, village songs, and the prevailing music equipments, to bring about a history in his music.. Even A.R Rahman’s music could not match his..
/** Again, several are scandalized at the very mention of ‘re-mix’ music as to what it seems to have done to the original but is that not how ‘tradition’ lives on as fusion and synthesis of diverse strands from multiple imports/sources of origin. It ultimately boils down to the listeners choice but lets not narrow down those choices in the name of our tradition, culture and heritage. Precisely because these have been very absorbent and all-encompassing and richer for it. Its not the exclusion of musical traditions that we need to think of but their ‘complimentarity.’ For each tradition has its time, place and meaning.
**/
I feel, the basic understanding differs from person to person.. Tradition lives on the continuity of the culture and NOT necessarily on fusion of contradictory ones unless imposed.. we often think, that we need to be inclusive for everything on this earth.. that’s simply illogical and impossible.. we can be inclusive on compliant cultures and not contradictory ones.. That doesnt mean, we have to be opposing cultures that doesnt suit us.. but we can better keep away from it, or keep it away from us..
Typically, music is part of a culture, and NOT a separate entity.. the western rock, represents a western culture.. its suited only for the western people..
Similarly, Indian music evolved out of indian culture and suits only for the indian people..
Btw, those who follow western music are the people, who are living the western life style (either fully or partly), due to which they could appreciate and understand that..
Similarly those who follow Indian music in western nations (white people) are those who, out of interest, study and live indian cultures..
Can we believe the following video (just by hearing audio), that it was performed by american university students?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f8iCm8gAP9Y
Excellent post Abdul. Like others my first exposed to pop music was because of Micheal Jackson. I still remembered that very first time i saw “Thriller” video, when i was very young, we used to rent tamil movies, usually VHS cassette after the movie some Hollywood movie climax or songs comes, as the VHS was originally from gulf country’s thrown away, tamil movie recorded on top of some hollywood movie/ or songs. Anyway i fell love with very first time i saw MJ’s music. I think MJ’s specialty is song lyrics, dance and video. This combination was very rare and i believe none of them beat this unique MJ’s style yet.
I think that i also faced some resistance to watch MJ’s video, that is, mainly because of economical situations at that time in India. There are variety of Tamil, Malayalam and Hindi songs can be bought at Rs 5 and 10 then why we need to buy Rs 100 English songs. If you add listening English songs are westernized then studying English medium and talking in English also westernized. There so many “vulgar” songs also in our ancient Tamil literature to classic to movie songs. Madonna’s songs are far better than a song from the movie “Indu”, i think it starts ” yeppadi yeppadi ” and the famous “choli ke pecha”. I really hate when people blaming western culture that spoiled our culture, there are lot of vulgar were there in our culture even before they invented radio.
Finally MJ did an excellent job by bring together East and West together, music has a extraordinary power to break the barriers and MJ utilized it. As a musician he foresaw the emerging global views and he dedicated most of his time and wealth to poor people and poor nation. I would say he is one of the catalyst to ameliorated the current globalization views of this generation. But he still make many wondered, why he expatiated puerile condition for some time, may be he is a rara avis, R.I.P MJ…
Thanks Kumaran. That is indeed a good insight: that MJ was one of those popular stars before the onset of cable TV/satellite television.
Also, you have made a noteworthy allusion to Parveen Babi. It is commonspeak, is it not? that the lives of some celebrities are bothered by depression along with their success and limelight. Both Parveen Babi and MJ went through such an experience in their lives.
Thanks Annapoorani. Music is and can be divine. What is seen as the most pop song can be a divine composition.
Thanks Senthil for your extensive comments.
If some of us choose to believe in the inferiority-superiority of musical traditions, unto each their point of view. This post tries to go beyond such a hierarchy and suggest that appreciating world music, whether pop or classical, is valid.
Regarding western rock only for western people, there is always a selection in what gets transported to the East is it not? For any tradition is termed a repertoire or ensemble and from that catalogue only some elements or songs or traditions get ‘transnationalized.’ So, its not as if the whole of western rock music traditions are bearing down on the East!
Excellant post Abdul
If I can add to ur post I would like to add a quote from Albus Dumbledore on music “”A magic beyond all we do here ”
Some how some people have a false sense of superiority about music…I am great fan of Carnatic and Western Music ,but some people I know always feel that Carnatic or Hindustani is far superior to other forms of music….
Its sad to see public apatthy towards art forms like Therukoothu/Villupattu etc….
As u said MJ somehow did not repesent the black or white community he represented the whole world….We are the world,Earth Song etc was representative of the whole world.
Thanks smuthurangan.
Its interesting to see you reminsce of the VHS days in the age of the DVD and the availability of so many digital forms on and off the web. It was fascinating to see one VHS tape being re-used over and over again for several recordings on and off the TV!
Regarding MJ, I think several in India would recall seeing him when black and white TV’s were still around. If you were of a certain generation, then the MJ bug had you bitten because one just stood transfixed there seeing the performer, hearing the music and feeling the rhythm.
About the East-West conundrum, it is nobody’s case that an Indian classical music fan or practitioner become a connossieur of Western pop/rock music. Can we give the ‘other’s pop’ the place it deserves? MJ left people with no choice across the globe smashing all boundaries.
The interesting facet to examine smuthurangan, is that even within the Western hemisphere, there are so many diverse musical traditions not just the pop/rock that we know of, there is western classical, opera and so on. Even there we see competing traditions. It becomes an issue only when somebody generates an hierarchy out of these traditions.
Thanks Karthik. The ‘We are the World’ song does not cease to move me till this day.
You have introduced a very interesting question regarding the relationship between our own classical forms and folk art when you mention Therukoothu/Villupattu…
\\I am great fan of Carnatic and Western Music ,but some people I know always feel that Carnatic or Hindustani is far superior to other forms of music….\\
Very true. It is the synthesis that comes diverse streams that we miss out when we exclude or privilege one at the risk of putting the other down.
Senthil,
Feeling superior about our culture, music etc is where the slippery slope of prejudice and xenophobia starts. Just because Madonna’s music is not part of Indian culture, we should not appreciate it? Where is the logic here?
Do you know that violin, mandolin, piano, saxophone and other major instruments we enjoy today in Indian Classical are all western instruments? Not to speak of loud speakers, acoustics, metronomes, electricity, airconditioning which are all western inventions without which we can’t enjoy any concert today.
How come the carnatic music purists didn’t shun those instruments as well as all the associated western technology?
Music is one area, where we can easily shun narrow nationalistic, cultural and linguistic issues and unite as humanity.
Please don’t try to disparage that unity even if you don’t agree with it.
Its funny because most of Carnatic Instruments have foreign orgin….Sax,Mandolin,Guitar,violin etc have their western orgin….
Sometimes I really feel bad some see amazing Nagswaram players playing in temples…. as well as other folk artists struggling
@ Sukumar….
Adding to list …Electronic Tambura and Sruthi Box:)
You are right Karthik. We should encourage folk artists. That is why Chennai Sangamam is a step in the right direction.
You are right – electronic tamboora, sruthi box – this is what i meant by metronome.
Sukumar,
Thanks. Regarding your mention of “Feeling superior about our culture, music etc is where the slippery slope of prejudice and xenophobia starts.” I like the way in which you have termed it as a “slippery slope.” Indeed, before one realises, the prejudice takes new and unexpected directions and proportions. That caution of yours itself sounded like music to my ears.
Karthik and Sukumar, Valid thoughts about folk artists. The more the merrier.
Nice one…I like to point out something from the other side. Thackeray`s are best known for communialism than anything else.The one who never fail to oppose anything which is outside ‘his’ ‘Marathi’ or ‘Indian’ domain was stunned by MJ . It was his nephew Raj Thackeray who organised Jackson`s event when it happened in Mumbai.Whatever criticism one will have against this inconsistency of his ideology I like to believe that music and dance was able to crush the barriers of regional chauvinism and narrow mindedness.
It`s something in the public domain which epitomises the power of music….
If I like carnatic music rather than pop music so be it.But it doesn`t make sense to rate my own tastes as superior to that of those ‘pop hearers’
Nice one…I like to point out something from the other side. Thackerays are best known for communalism than anything else.The one who never fail to oppose anything which is outside ‘his’ ‘Marathi’ or ‘Indian’ domain was stunned by MJ . It was his nephew Raj Thackeray who organised Jackson`s event when it happened in Mumbai.Whatever criticism one will have against this inconsistency of his ideology I like to believe that music and dance was able to crush the barriers of regional chauvinism and narrow mindedness.
It`s something in the public domain which epitomises the power of music….
*
If I like carnatic music rather than pop music so be it.But it doesn`t make sense to rate my own tastes as superior to that of those ‘pop hearers’
Nice one…I like to point out something from the other side. Thackerays are best known for communalism than anything else.The one who never fails to oppose anything which is outside ‘his’ ‘Marathi’ or ‘Indian’ domain was stunned by MJ . It was his nephew Raj Thackeray who organised Jackson`s event when it happened in Mumbai.Whatever criticism one will have against this inconsistency of his ideology I like to believe that music and dance was able to crush the barriers of regional chauvinism and narrow mindedness.
It`s something in the public domain which epitomises the power of music….
*
If I like carnatic music rather than pop music so be it.But it doesn`t make sense to rate my own tastes as superior to that of those ‘pop hearers’
Abdul,
/** Regarding western rock only for western people, there is always a selection in what gets transported to the East is it not? For any tradition is termed a repertoire or ensemble and from that catalogue only some elements or songs or traditions get ‘transnationalized.’ So, its not as if the whole of western rock music traditions are bearing down on the East!
**/
I agree to your point..
Subba,
/** There so many “vulgar” songs also in our ancient Tamil literature to classic to movie songs. **/
Can you please cite, one or few such songs? I believe you are referring to sanga ilakkiyams, involving thalaivan and thalavi..
The current vulgar songs in the tamil and other indian films are the direct result of the impact of western musics.. Because our films had vulgar scenes, we cannot justify the vulgar scenes in Madonna’s album..
We need to respect the sensitiveness of the society.. IT will not be an issue, if these albums are available in the shops, and the interested individuals buying and seeing it.. But its really an issue, when MTV channels telecast such songs continuously, it impacts the society..
When conservatives oppose this, or dont like this, then they are ridiculed or pushed in the negative limelight, as narrow mindedness..
I oppose & condemn such aggressive insensitive stand of the liberals..
Sukumar,
We need to assert our superiority in the fields of our strenghts, while acknowledge the superiority of the others in their respective fields.
In lot of instances, we have compared indian vs western education, and technolgical advancements, and accepted that they are superior.. that’s the fact..
So there is nothing wrong in feeling superior about our music, w.r.t the western one.. probably, we can discuss more on how it is superior / inferior..
/** Just because Madonna’s music is not part of Indian culture, we should not appreciate it? Where is the logic here? **/
One can appreciate madonna’s music, only if he likes/dislikes.. Madonna’s album is too sexy/vulgar, that one may feel NOT comfortable even seeing it.. nor the kind of music is being liked by those who have been used to the carnatic or hindustani songs..
Why should we debunk them for NOT appreciating madonna, or even disliking madonna.. I feel, abdul had projected them in negative tone, and hence i expressed my opinion on that..
Btw, you would agree, that western music is reached only to the small section of indian people, who adopted western life style.. For majority of indians, it doesnt matter…
/** Do you know that violin, mandolin, piano, saxophone and other major instruments we enjoy today in Indian Classical are all western instruments? Not to speak of loud speakers, acoustics, metronomes, electricity, airconditioning which are all western inventions without which we can’t enjoy any concert today.
**/
There is difference b/w musical instrument and the music itself.. the post is about the music, and NOT musical instruments.. and the debate is about indian vs western music.. (NOT indian instruments vs western instruments)
Whether its piano or saxo phone, or violin or mandolin, the raga and tala is same Indian.. most of the indian violinist play only carnatic music and NOT the western classical.. Bismilla khan played hindustani and NOT western classical.. Popular mandolinists played carnatic sangeeth..
Our ilayaraja, although he made music for the common people, used western technologies, but the music is indian, a combination of folklore, village music and carnatic sangeeth..
So comparing music with musical instruments is like comparing apples with oranges..
Secondly, the very fact that all of those musical instruments came from west itself is debatable.. There are lot of instruments, which went from the east to west, and later reintroduced back..
I hope, the following link will be interesting..
http://bayes.wustl.edu/etj/music/m2k.pdf
/** Sometimes I really feel bad some see amazing Nagswaram players playing in temples…. as well as other folk artists struggling
**/
Karthick.. while your concern is entirely valid, what do you feel is causing threat to the folk artists and the village musics? Is it not the western music, influenced through the recent films..
Some important truths are lost in the overwhelming marketing noices..
* MJ disowned his black identity, and had medical surgery to have white skin.. Is it not something important to note?
* Secondly, MJ’s life is a lesson, where a man who amassed lot of wealth, and lot of fame and popularity, atlast has to die out of struggling to pay his debts.. rather an example of how a man should & should NOT live under extreme fame..
Abdul,
Nice and timely post. Art in general – music, painting, movies transcends generation, culture and ethnicity. And MJ certainly did that – atleast as far as I am concerned.
Ganesh
Senthil,
First of all, i doubt anyone can establish the superiority or the inferiority of anything without understanding both the items being compared. If someone would like to prove that Indian Classical is better than Western Classical, then that someone needs a deep understanding of both.
What Abdul pointed out, which you are not addressing, is the dismissal of alternate forms of music, just by listening to one song or not even listening to that in full. The only explanation i can think of for this behavior is bias.
Senthil,
I made the point about western instruments being used in Indian music to say that musicians are not closed-minded. They take the foreign things and adapt it to our music and do that well. the point being, that just because something is foreign, we need not reject it.
western lifestyle, western thought is every where. The only way to avoid is to crawl back into the caves take to a hunter/gatherer lifestyle. I am sure you won’t advocate that. In the same way, no one is advocating adopting everything western to the detriment of our indigenous things. Just because we listen to Madonna, doesn’t mean we abandon Maharajapuram.
Finally, to Subba’s point, if you want to cleanse vulgarity, we should start at home first. Whether the vulgarity is a result of western influence is a debatable point and irrelevant as well. No one from the west, especially after the British left, forced us to adopt anything western. It is us who are adopting those voluntarily.
Like i said before let us crawl back into our caves and become hunter/gatherers. that will solve all problems.
/** First of all, i doubt anyone can establish the superiority or the inferiority of anything without understanding both the items being compared
**/
Agreed.. but the parameters of comparison will be different for different persons.. and the parameters chosen will be based on one’s liking.. for example, in terms of market value, the western music is superior.. but in terms of musical perfection, expertise & details (ragams, thaalams, and combinations), indian music is superior.. In terms of satisfaction, indian music is superior.
While agree that we should NOT simply dismiss alternate forms of music, one have the rights to reject alternate forms of music, if it is not suited to his lifestyle, or the culture he belongs.. and we cannot pressurise them, to appreciate alternate music, just because it exists, or MTV telecasts it, or just because we have been enjoying those music..
And if you term it bias, let it be.. I call it as affinity and preference..
/** western lifestyle, western thought is every where. The only way to avoid is to crawl back into the caves take to a hunter/gatherer lifestyle. I am sure you won’t advocate that.
**/
Sukumar,
Western thoughts came only 3 centuries back.. Before that, we did not live in caves.. there were beautiful and rich cities, right from ancient days, like magadha, vijayanagara, etc. There were numerous local civilizations, cities existing.
And our life style was temple centric.. our music evolved around temples.. our music was mostly performed in temples on a daily basis..
and i believe, these temples are NOT ordinary structures for a layman to construct..
Till 300 years before, we had a full fledged lifestyle, independant of the west.. It is that life style & Culture, that developed the age old music of india..
I am really surprised that you could not see anything worth in india, inspite of so many standing evidences, in terms of monumental, literature and cultural continuance..
As i said earlier, every music evolved out of the culture, and it is a must, that we need to preserve that life style for that music to retain its tradition and value..
Till now, the culture of singing keerthanas is preserved in thiruvarur.. The culture of baratanatyam arangetram in temples is continuing.. and there are various temple centril local arts and music, that was once performed in temples but now becoming extinct..
And i have no hesitation in advocating such divine life style.. and such life style can be practiced in developed environment, and NOT necessarily in caves.
/** I made the point about western instruments being used in Indian music to say that musicians are not closed-minded. They take the foreign things and adapt it to our music and do that well.
**/
Sukumar,
Adapting western instruments (many of which were originally eastern instruments) is different from adapting western music.. Traditional musicians had used only appropriate instruments suitable for carnatic, and NOT everything..
I hope, you would have heard some of the recent remix songs in tamil… many of the melody classical film songs are “Brutally Killed” using the so called ROCK.. and this is where, even modern music directors oppose.. the very fundamentals of a particular music form is distorted in that crave for unminded remix and fusions.. IT severely hurts the sentiments of music lovers..
WHy should we appreciate such fusions?
Recently, ilayaraja composed “Thiruvasagam” in symfony, and it was an utter failure.. because, that music doesnt fit indian mindset..
/** the point being, that just because something is foreign, we need not reject it.
**/
My stand is that, just because something is foreign, we NEED NOT always appreciate it..
Senthil,
This is really news to me that our lifestyle 300 years back was free from Western interference.I am not sure how we can ignore the contrbutions of Alexander and Selecus in our culture….Please check out at the musuem in Arekamedu about the Roman influence in our culture….How can we forget the influx of Muslims into India post 11 century…they have made significant contibutions to our culture…and most of them we Turks or Persians who were already interacted with “West” and were bringin in that mixture too….
IMHO only pure culture currently existing are the aborgines of Andamans ,Africa and South America who have been totally shielded.
Culture infkux does not have to be major it can also be hidden…take ur food for example…can u identify the vegetables which are native and which are not…I dont want to go off topic…music too has undergone a similar metamorphis…so we really cannot claim which is superior or inferior…
with respect to Folk music as dying art….I am yet to see a poor suffering Carnatic musician ( A rated ones)….But i have seen lots of A rated Nagaswaran vidhwans and others struggling…So based in this trend i am sure next generation will not follow this but try out better oppurtunities….And this not due to western influence but our own false opinion that Carnatic music /Western Classical is for the sophistcated and Folk is for the masses….it has got nothing to do influx of western music …
Thanks Arun. Music and dance indeed have power to shatter not just regional barriers but trans-continental ones.
Senthil,
Affinity and preference are absolutely the preference of the individual. But you don’t express affinity and preference by disparaging things you don’t like in a manner that shows poor logic – that is bias. What Abdul is pointing out is this bias. I may not like certain forms of music for whatever reason, but that doesn’t mean i can say those that i don’t like are inferior.
Hope that distinction is clear.
Senthil,
Please read Karthik’s comment on this topic. India has been a land of external influence for millenia, which includes the Vedic culture we follow today (i know you don’t agree with it). The point is, to what point do you back in history?
The pragmatic approach would be to take the best parts of what we come across and utilize that to our benefit.
Western thoughts or lifestyle or music or culture per se don’t pose a problem to our culture. It is up to us to determine what to adopt judiciously and that is upto the people.
This whole notion of culture, religion etc being superior to others is the starting point of prejudice/xenophobia. Let us avoid that.
Senthil,
I think you missed the point again. No one is saying we should appreciate something because it is western. Where did you read that? Please point me to that statement anywhere in this discussion. In fact, we are arguing the opposite, don’t rubbish western things because ours-is-superior-type of notion.
Another thing – just because Ilayaraja’s Thiruvasagam (which is actually fabulous in my view), and some fusion remix bombed, doesn’t mean the entire concept is bad. That is not sound logic. There are several fusion songs that Ilayaraja himself has scored that are very popular. AR Rahman has done that as well.
Thanks Karthik. You are absolutely right. India has been a veritable crossroads for millenia.
And for folk artists, you are right again. It has got nothing to do with western influence and very much to do with our lack of patronage. The situation is much akin to Cricket and other sports in India. Why do people patronize only Cricket and not the other sports. Is it due to western influence? Obviously not. Unless we patronize the dying folk arts, they will die. The same goes for sports other than cricket in india. they are on a death march.
Thanks Ganesh. One of the sad aspects of the passing away of MJ is that he is larger in death than he was in life. Somewhere a complete assessment of what he meant to the world seems to have emerged more clearly on his demise rather than in his life.
Today people are more willing to be forgiving of his controversies and stand in adoration of what was most important: his music. And that lives on without him of course. Likewise in human existence, there are many people who create that symphony and harmony. It is only long after they are gone that we recognize them.
Excellent post timed very aptly, Abdul. As you rightly said, music transcends all barriers and is universal. There are several carnatic musicians who learn Western Classical music just to enrich their repertoire. Every kind of music has its own unique highlight. For example, Western Classical music is rich in Harmony, Hindustani lays a lot of emphasis on Shruti and Raag Alapanas, while Carnatic is laden with elaborating Swaras and many compositions that have a strong Bhakthi element. MJ’s music is a class of its own. He carved a niche for himself and established himself as the uncrowned king of pop in his own right. i listen to all genres of music and each type of music suits a certain mood.
The way you have connected MJ with Kipling is amazing. Thanks for the nice post as well as some interesting readings that you have shared there.
Thanks Soumya. Especially for the fine detail that you have set out about Western Classical/Hindustani and Carnatic music. Its nice to hear that you listen to all genres of music and you are very right when you say that each type of music suits a certain mood.
Regarding MJ and Kipling, this relates to the East-West dimension. One said, We are East and West; the other said, We are the World. Through the power of his music and performance, MJ has shown that both east and west are united in the ‘sound of music.’
The presence or lack of conceit is probably the differentiating factor in respecting all genres of music as against saying “all harmony lies is in MY classical music” and “there is nothing in ‘theirs’.!”
/** I may not like certain forms of music for whatever reason, but that doesn’t mean i can say those that i don’t like are inferior.
**/
Sukumar,
Here no body is saying that “Because i dont like, they are inferior”.. if you see our earlier comments, the like/dislike debate is separate from superior/inferior debate.. both should not be linked up..
My core point is not yet addressed.. abdul has projected his colleague’s opinions in negative tone, because they did not appreciate western music..
In what way, is it fair?
And i believe, most of the conservative opinions are about rock and pop albums (Madonna’s, MJ’s) of the west, and NOT about classical western music.. And those who made generic comment on western music, should have meant the same.. (ROCK, POP etc)..
So, the debate is essentially on the western rock/pop music, vs indian music..
Please correct me if i am wrong..
Karthick,
I am surprised by your comment..
Are you saying, there was no indian culture before alexander came? If so, what was that culture?
I am not saying, “India did NOT have any outer influence..”. For the fact, no country is insulated from others..
The point here is what was indian culture, and how much of it was affected by western influences..
While comparing the present situation with 300 years before, i meant that there was no craze for western life style, and that, every community in india, practiced their own culture.. the external people, either integrated with indian culture, or retaiined theirs and lived as yet another community.. (eg: jews, parsis)..
As i said earlier in my comment, there are many indigenous way of life, that was either under extinct or already lost now.
For example, the practice of singing in temples was widely prevailent before britishers.. as it is evident from many religious books, like devarams.. Such a culture is indigenous, and NOT influenced by western one.. today, such culture is NOT prevailent, due to government policies, and influence of western life style and western model of development..
Next, the culture of performing arts in temples.. this is also indigenous culture, which is NOT followed..
The culture of pattabishekam is also an indigenous culture.. Now, due to so called sickularism, it is also not followed..
The culture of annadhanams, is indigenous to india.. today, due to collapse of temples system, it is NOT done much..
The culture of conducting marriage for five days (or 3 days or 11 days or 13 days, as specific to each community), is now made unfeasible, due to western life style.. However, it was there before 300 years..
Like wise, we can mention lot other things..
In ramayana, the oldest epic, had lot of references to indian music performed in the king’s events.. it gives us a reference to trace back our music to well beyond atleast 5000 years.. (considering mahabaratha happened 5000 years before)..
But sukumar has outrightly rejected anything native, and that he is telling that if NOT for western life style, we have to again go back to caves.. and that’s why, i was pointing to him, that before britishers, our ancestors had lived in well built fort, constructed magnificient temples, had beautiful cities, and had extensive commerce with many foreign countries, both east and west (of india)..
Is it not a highly unfair, and extremely biased opinion?
/** with respect to Folk music as dying art….I am yet to see a poor suffering Carnatic musician ( A rated ones)….But i have seen lots of A rated Nagaswaran vidhwans and others struggling…So based in this trend i am sure next generation will not follow this but try out better oppurtunities….And this not due to western influence but our own false opinion that Carnatic music /Western Classical is for the sophistcated and Folk is for the masses…
**/
Karthick,
Both carnatic musci and folklore was co-existing for thousands of years in india.. can you please explain, why all of sudden, the folklore is under pressure now? How come, the carnatic music, which did not hamper folklores for thousands of years, is now attributed as a reason for the later’s extinction?
And you have said, the next generation did not take up the nagaswaram profession? How come carnatic music has to do with it, considering that it was beyond comprehension of most of the common people even now..
Is it not the western lifestyle, that’s making everyone abandon their tradition profession or arts? and if just one generation comes out of it, then the lineage gets broken.. and who is responsible for that?
Btw, i had just one common doubt.. any one who is from carnatic / musical / historical background can clarify..
I had basic introduction to instrumental music during my school days.. in that, the musical notes are the same 7 swaras, starting as c,d,e,f etc.. the notes are similar to “sa, ri, ga, ma…”
How come both western and indian musical notes have such starkling resemblance?
Nice discussion and very nice article.
One thing I observed is Western Pop genre is a very appealing and kind of gets adapted very soon because it is easy on ears. Naturally it might have appealed to Indian ears very much. MJ undoubtedly unlocked Indian markets to the western music labels. MTV of course also contributed. Why do we not have as many takers for Hard Rock in India?
It is not the strongest of the species that survives, nor the most intelligent that survives. It is the one that is the most adaptable to change. – Charles Darwin
Just like what Senthil is worrying every culture in the recent past was affected by western culture to the extent that it put the native culture in the path of extinction. Take Japan, Vietnam, Thailand, India, Korea, China, Malaysia and Indonesia.
Luckiest and most happy are those who take best of both worlds, fuse and enjoy them. Unlucky are those who rant that it is unnatural.
I often think what would be Indian cooking in truest traditional sense – Chillies are not native and today I find almost all indian items using chillies. Same is Tomatoes. How would traditional food lover enjoy Madras Rasam minus Tomatoes? Same is the case with Cilantro, Samosas, Tea, Coffee… If I am OK with food, why not music.
Some thoughts…
@ Senthil,
I would be really stupid to say that India did not have a culture before Alexander.My point was not belittle Indian Culture but to drive thru the point the our culture has been amalgamated with other culture.
Vamsi has raised an excellant point about the food.I have eaten traditional Tamil cuisine once but I have to accept that even thought it was great I missed the taste of Chillies etc ,So after some time we bend the culture/Civilisation based on the majority’s taste and interests.So similary we need to accpet that Western to needs to be amalgamted with our civilization.
With respect to past 300 years what is percievable loss of culture are u talking about ? Speaking English or changing our dress?I guess then we shoud not be using a computer/Blog/etc as they were invented by West (unless there is some proof that Vincent Cerf or Charles Babbage had their orgnis in India).We shoud go back to Ola Chuvadi and achu aani…Do you think that is feasible?
I think you have misunderstood Sukumar’s comments..I dont think he as rejected anything that is Native ..He has just mentioned we need to accept the change as part of culture and try to integrate it (I hope I have understood that correctly)
Folk is deft not dying because of western music ..it is dying because of our apathy towards the art.If Carnatic and Folk can survive for 1000 years togther..why cant Western and Classical or even Folk for that matter ?
Thanks Vamsi. Superb pointers all the way in your comment. Indeed, not just for hard rock, there are almost no takers for heavy metal. Very relevant thought there, ‘easy on the ear.!’ So there is something there in that music/western pop, its not as if ‘there is nothing!’
Regarding “Luckiest and most happy are those who take best of both worlds, fuse and enjoy them. Unlucky are those who rant that it is unnatural.” Well-said!
Vamsi,
/** One thing I observed is Western Pop genre is a very appealing and kind of gets adapted very soon because it is easy on ears. Naturally it might have appealed to Indian ears very much. MJ undoubtedly unlocked Indian markets to the western music labels. MTV of course also contributed.
**/
Easy on ears? For whom? Not to everyone.. we cannot generalise it, and say “It should appeal to every indian”.. this is where the problem lies.. You can watch MJ’s music and like it.. but why should the whole india be expected to be appealed by it?
/** Why do we not have as many takers for Hard Rock in India? **/
Why do you want to market Hard Rock in india? and why do you want as many takers for it? This is also another problem..
You like hard rock, and you expect everyone to take it.. and if any one doesnt, then you accuse them of Narrow minded, biased etc.. the same attitude, that i pointed out in this article of abdul..
Do you realise, that even the conservatives doesnt come and prevent the liberals from watching western pop genre.. but its the liberals, who is infringing on the ordinary indians and conservatives..
/** Luckiest and most happy are those who take best of both worlds, fuse and enjoy them. Unlucky are those who rant that it is unnatural.
**/
This is what i call a colonial mindset.. To utilise everything for our own selfish pleasure, without ever considering the traditional value, or the larger social sentiment.. Take for example, the case of madonna, as pointed out by abdul.. many album of hers are obscene, vulgar, or sexy.. and you say, madonna should be appreciated.. and appreciate what? Is there any rule that only if music is accompanied with sexy scenes, it will be enjoyable..? IT is an example of the western culture, where women and her body is seen as a consumable product, and used extensively for marketing.. and our liberals like priya would call it as height of women’s right and freedom..
first of all, whether its western or eastern culture or music, it is NOT a private property, to take it for granted, and do whatever we want.. ITs not a kitchen item, where we can mix different things together and taste it..
Culture is an evolution of the societal habits, and music is an manifestation of that culture.. Please understand that culture and music are NOT for enjoying in india.. culture is for civilising society, and music is for expression.. for village folks in india, its the expression of the relations, joys and sorrows.. and for the carnatic music, it is for the expression of devotion and bhakti to the ultimate god..
/** It is not the strongest of the species that survives, nor the most intelligent that survives. It is the one that is the most adaptable to change. – Charles Darwin
**/
In Indian raj dharma, one of the main duty of a king is to protect the weak.. The westerner colonisers might have seen everything from survival point of view.. we need not do the same..
Also, the changes in a civilised society, changes dont occur randomly… it takes mostly by external aggression, and partly by government policies..
Also, music is not a product, and hence there doesnt come the question of darwin’s theory..
Karthick,
/** I would be really stupid to say that India did not have a culture before Alexander **/
Thanks.. but what was the indian culture before alexander? could you pls point out a couple of that?
also, what exactly does alexander brought to indian culture? (history shows, that he did not cross the indus river fearing large elephant fleet of nanda dynasty)
The reality is no one knows what exactly is indian culture, because it is never taught in school books.. we often debating in too generic terms.. i feel, its time to go in specific details..
/** With respect to past 300 years what is percievable loss of culture are u talking about ? **/
I have already listed out some of those culture that we lost in my earlier comments.. hope you would have read..
/** Speaking English or changing our dress? **/
I think, we had this discussion on language in earlier post written by sukumar.. (i think, in imagining india)..
Regarding dress, yes, its also one indication of cultural change.. pls look at the attitude of the urban elite liberals towards the rural folks.. those who wear white dhoti and shirt is being looked down upon.. those who wear dhavani is being looked down upon..
/**I guess then we shoud not be using a computer/Blog/etc as they were invented by West (unless there is some proof that Vincent Cerf or Charles Babbage had their orgnis in India).We shoud go back to Ola Chuvadi and achu aani…Do you think that is feasible?
**/
First of all, no single nation invented computers and every invention is based on previous inventions.. that’s a different case..
Are you saying that because we use computers/blogs etc, we should accept everything from the west as it is?
Hope, you would understand the difference b/w culture, life style and materialistic things..
/** I think you have misunderstood Sukumar’s comments..I dont think he as rejected anything that is Native ..He has just mentioned we need to accept the change as part of culture and try to integrate it (I hope I have understood that correctly)
**/
Sukumar’s comments is straight forward.. he says “Without western culture, we have to go back to caves”..
and secondly, i am not opposing the view that we need to accept the change.. but, the question is whether all changes should be accepted as it is without ever analysing it?
In this case of western music, should we accept the vulgarity and obscene method of composing music albums? (Indian film industry already accepted that is another matter)
Senthil,
Western Pop is not appealing to every one. No single music genre will be appealing to everyone. For something to get a critical mass and market, it needs to cross a threshold of acceptance. That is where western pop is. It has it’s influence. Rock’n'Roll influenced Shammi Kapoor, Krishna (Telugu). Disco influenced many stars like Mithunda, Rishi Kapoor , Kamal Hassan, finally break dances influenced Chiru, Prabhu Deva etc. Now it cannot be prevented because it has acceptance. My point is Hard Rock and Heavy Metal or even underground could not appeal to Indians (and many even in your so called singular entity “west” dot take every genre and accept it in millions). So, my reasoning is that some genres of western music is accepted globally and that is what we call ‘pop’. You kind of missed that point completely and say that I want hard rock should become accepted in India. Did I say that? Pl read my post completely. BTW I dont like hard rock.
With itunes and 99 cents songs, you can be a star of your own right. I dont know the business model, but I believe you can break even with just 10k downloads which is an achievable number if one has talent irrespective of the genre. That is a long tail model I guess.
Madonna, I love her – both for her beautiful voice, excellent packaging, rebellious lyrics and of course great body (yes sexy). Sexy for some is obscene for others. Most traditional dress Indian Saree is also considered most sexy of all attires by many. Also why do you think music is for divinity only. Then you did not understand Indian culture at all. Romance and Sex are part of our culture. Why do you take such a narrow interpretation of culture and music that they are not for the enjoyment. So anybody who feels happy watching a dance program (mano ullasam) are doing a mistake?
I quoted Darwin to drive a point that you cannot win by going head on with something that majority accepts. You can of course market it well – groom talent, use better channels and package it well so that our music also wins. Blame it on British or Zamindars, we cannot undo 300 years of their rule. But our future is in our hands. All I am saying is – adapt or extinct.
10 years back in Telugu films every movie had a folk song. Adapted well and it became a big hit. Now we cannot see it because film makers being what they are, repeated the same thing without innovating. And nobody cares for them. In this era of speed and fluidity, whoever innovates better will win.
Vamsi, Nice set of thoughts and useful pointers again. Cheers again for the argument on adaptation.
/** Folk is deft not dying because of western music ..it is dying because of our apathy towards the art.If Carnatic and Folk can survive for 1000 years togther..why cant Western and Classical or even Folk for that matter ?
**/
Karthick.. you are simply negating in defence of western music.. you need to substantiate your point..
the extinction of folk is itself a subject of deep study.. Its not just about music, but loss of a lifestyle and thought process associated with it..
Generally, folklore are the characteristic of rural (& probably tribal) music.. Unlike, the modern pop & rock musci, folks are NOT meant for enjoying.. Rather, it is a medium of expression of emotions, like joy, sorrow, etc..
I came from a rural background, and my initial years are in a typical rural atmosphere.. My first cognizable experience of folklore is through “Opparis’.. “Oppari” is a tamil word, used to denote folks sung on the event of death..
Till 1995′s (i think), “Opparis” are regular thing in our villages.. Now a days, its no more played in our villages.. (probably it may exist in other rural areas)..
Opparis are NOT pre-written, or pre-determined.. It occurs spontaneously, during the death event.. One would be surprised at the lyrics of this folk, which comes on the spot.. The lyrics are normally, either in praise of the deceased, or may mock at the decease, depending on the persons singing it
..
Another popular form of lyrics is “Thaalaatu”, normally sung by mothers to make her baby sleep.. This would be very pleasing to hear, while opparis may not be tolerated at some times (due to extreme expression of sorrow)..
The content and meaning of both opparis and thaalaatu would be very rich, in many cases, the expression of experiences of the singers..
There is one more type of folks, that is sung during work hours.. this is normally sung to forget the hardships of the work.. I havent seen it directly.. but instead of the song, the workers would have interesting chat..
————————————————–
Now coming to how folks died down, its entirely due to the macaulay education, where the local customs are ignored and a western mindset is imparted.. my father’s grandma used to sing folks, but not his sister (who studied in schools).. Similarly the children of many of those folk singers are hesitant or shy of singing it..
To generalise it, the generation who studied in schools, have completely ignored the folks.. Thus the continuation of the collective skills gets broken, and the folk is completely forgotten in the subsequent generations..
————————————————————–
If we look at the history of tamil film music, the old movies are full of carnatic music.. then came the era of discothe, and club songs.. then directors like bharathi raja, moved the film shooting from indoor sets, to the rural villages.. Only during that stage, the rural folks, got to be used in movies.. The classical ilayaraja songs are inspired by the folk songs, but he wonderfully fused the carnatic and the folks in his composition..
We have to note that, in the three stages that i described, the first stage (ie musics of older movies) music are indigenous carnatic one….
the second stage (ie medieval era of tamil films) music are completely conquered by discothe songs and club songs, a thing of total western influence..
And the third stage (ie the era of ilayaraja), is again a fusion of village songs with carnatic raagams.. once again an indigenous evolution..
And finally to mention the fourth stage (ie, the current trends), we are witnessing a gradual collapse of carnatic raagams, and instead adopting western rock and pop songs..
The more terrifying change is the concept of fusion, where sweet classical songs are brutally killed in the name of remix…
Senthil, I believe you missed an important piece. Apart from RD Burman, it is Illayaraja who fused Western music with Indian music successfully. Source 1) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illayaraja Source 2) My personal music collection of Raja. All classic hits, most of them rich westernization.
In fact A.R Reheman did continue Raja’s style but blended Sufi music as well with of course richer instrumentation ( and sometimes ‘over’ percussion).
Senthil, your idea on folk songs is again very narrow. Request to cite some real sources with quotes. AFAIK, folk is for *all* emotions. You seem to make everything traditional noble.
Vamsi,
Thanks a lot for your insights. Most of which are spot on.
Senthil,
You have the habit of twisting people’s statements to suit your own inferences. Here is what i said
/*western lifestyle, western thought is every where. The only way to avoid is to crawl back into the caves take to a hunter/gatherer lifestyle. I am sure you won’t advocate that. In the same way, no one is advocating adopting everything western to the detriment of our indigenous things. Just because we listen to Madonna, doesn’t mean we abandon Maharajapuram. */
Please re-read this statement again. Where am i advocating that we abandon all our indigenous things? In fact i am arguing the opposite – adopting western things need not affect indigenous things. When i mentioned we can become a cave man, i obviously was exaggerating to make a point. Let me try to explain in a more straight forward way, which hopefully you won’t twist.
Do this – Try to convince 100 families from the nicer localities of Coimbatore like RS Puram
to move to a village where there is no electricity, no bulbs, no motor pumps, no schools offering modern education, no TV, no radio, no concrete houses – only brick houses allowed, no pasteurized milk, no phone, no mobile, no access to modern medicine, no air travel, no car, no bus, no van – the list of western inventions we have to exclude is a long one. I assume that your family will be amongst the first you will try to convince to adopt this lifestyle.
If you can accomplish that, please come back to this blog and report and then we can discuss about western lifestyle and Indian lifestyle.
Excellent Sukumar, this is exactly we should ask our Senthil to do. He himself should not touch PC for at least 1 week.
@ Senthil
On ur question on what was the culture before Alexander.I would like to write lots here but again we will be deviating futher from Abdul’ post so I dont want write anything here .
With regard to clothes …I guess one needs to change based on the prevailing norms rather than harpning to our traditonal routes….IF we still want to do it then we should probbaly follow Sangam culture…
While reading the Agananuru i got and insight into ancient Tamil dress code…where women did not cover their breasts with clothes.. and men wore only a dhoti…can we follow the same now…wont the moral police create a hue and cry on that….remeber the Sriya and Mallika instance?
You keep saying Madonna was vulgar her songs were Vulgar…I would suggest u vist a place called Kodungallur in Kerala…where there is a famous temple which they say was built by famous Tamil King Cheran Sengutavan(to refresh a bit he was brother of famed Ilangovadigal creator of Silapadikaram)…In this temple there is festival called Bharani in march /april were vulgar songs are sung in praise of the goddess….so i dont think we can have this holier than thou attitude about west….
@ Senthil,
I am not sure of u come to this conclsuin from my comments
“Karthick.. you are simply negating in defence of western music.. you need to substantiate your point”
All I said was folk was dying due to lack of patronage…..and dont feel need to substaniate till Chennai Sangaman none of this guys had a chance to showcase their talents… and folk does not stop with Oppari and Thalatu….
I dont have writeups in my support at the moment but will provide it too u soon..
@ Senthil
With respect to question on why Carnatic Music swaras and western music swaras a similar.. is because both have beem derived from Anilmal sounds
/** Western Pop is not appealing to every one. No single music genre will be appealing to everyone. **/
That is what i am also saying.. Its possible, that a section of people in india may not be appealed by the entire western music itself.. Why should we project them as Narrow minded, or why should we call them to appreciate madonno’s pop or MJ’s rock, when they do not get appealed by it?
/** You kind of missed that point completely and say that I want hard rock should become accepted in India. Did I say that? **/
Probably the ambiguity in your sentence may have lead me to interpret in the other way.. but i hope, you too understand my point..
/** Sexy for some is obscene for others. Most traditional dress Indian Saree is also considered most sexy of all attires by many. **/
It depends on how one sees, and how one wears the saree.. the concept of “Sexy” itself is an import of the west.. The term “Sexy” itself is denigration of the womanhood, and it indicates an attitude to see woman’s body, as an object of consumption.. Such an attitude may be suited for western people, but NOT for India.. Unfortunately, such kind of attitude has been part of the college culture, a mark of how our cultural values are degraded..
/** Also why do you think music is for divinity only. Then you did not understand Indian culture at all. Romance and Sex are part of our culture. Why do you take such a narrow interpretation of culture and music that they are not for the enjoyment. So anybody who feels happy watching a dance program (mano ullasam) are doing a mistake?
**/
Vamsi.. Romance and sex are normal thing in indian culture, untill christianity made it as “Taboo” during british rule.. But everything had a place and context here.. and btw, romance is different from the “Sexy” attitude..
Indian music is largely for divinity and does not have consumerist angle.. The artists were more focussed on expression of devotion, perfection of the music and performance.. That’s why, the carnatic music is so refined, and finetuned, eventhough it may not appeal common man..
Even in the case of village dramas, the focus is more on the story, rather than consumer point of view.. you can see like “Villu paatu”, “Ramayana dramas” etc.. they are NOT appealing to the current mindset.. they were full of songs, with less dialogue.. People of those days, understood these things, and watched it..
So, you cannot throw a music system that is not suited for market oriented commercialism, in to open competition, and then say “Either adapt or perish”..
Also, traditional indian music and Madonnas sexy albums are highly contradictory, and cannot co-exist.. Just like devotion and cheap lust cannot co-exist..
Please note that, “While people are free to see what they want, there should be a consideration for the section of people, who may NOT feel comfortable with sexy pop albums, and their sensitivities should be respected, which is NOT done now..
/** Blame it on British or Zamindars, we cannot undo 300 years of their rule. But our future is in our hands **/
Vamsi.. its not that we cannot undo.. but we are not willing to.. we may not undo everything.. but we can connect with our history and continue from where we are dislodged..
And yes, our future is in our hands.. but how are we going to shape it? are we going to emulate western lifestyle, or build our own?
There will be no end to this debate.. So i will end here..
vamsi..
/** Senthil, I believe you missed an important piece. Apart from RD Burman, it is Illayaraja who fused Western music with Indian music successfully. **/
Regarding the music, we are dealing mostly with current western pop/rock vs indian music.. if we see the discussion from starting, no one is complaining against western classical.. (Even in the abdul’s post, there is no grudge against western classical)..
I feel, if we understand this key point, our discussion would be objective..
I agree, that ilayaraja combined carnatic, village folks, and western classical music.. Even as per his statement, he has diluted all three to arrive at an indigineous composition..
But my point is that the main body of his music is indigenous (village lyrics with carnatic raagams), with western classical, applied only wherever necessary, and highly adapted.. he has just taken the polyphony concept, and used in our own way (in many cases used carnatic ragams in polyphonic playback)..
Instead of appreciating this indigenous content, we are always obsessed with westernisation.. that’s my core point..
karthick,
/** With regard to clothes …I guess one needs to change based on the prevailing norms rather than harpning to our traditonal routes….IF we still want to do it then we should probbaly follow Sangam culture…
**/
For every comparison, why should we always go back to sangam age.. My point is that after british domination, many indians abandoned their own life style, and adapted western life style, including dresses, habits etc.. So, its enough if we go back, till 300 years before, instead of sangam age..
/** While reading the Agananuru i got and insight into ancient Tamil dress code…where women did not cover their breasts with clothes.. and men wore only a dhoti…can we follow the same now…wont the moral police create a hue and cry on that….remeber the Sriya and Mallika instance?
**/
Karthick. During the times of “Aga naanooru”, what was the state of the europe? Its illogical for everything to go to ancient times, as though there is nothing indigenous after that..
Just going back 20-30 years, most men in rural side, wore “Kovanams” during farm work (hope, you know that) and dhoties at normal times, while ladies wore a lengthy saree called “Kandangi saree” covering their full body.. I came from such community, and has witnessed the same in my early childhood..
While i cannot resort to “Kovanams”, i should NOT have problem with dhoties.. that is the rationality behind my argument.. We had rich set of cultural values, and we can adopt our life style from our own..
Just see the red turbans by punes in collector office.. or the black suits by judges and lawyers.. I think even the western countries had abandoned that.. but we are still continuing that, a mark of the slavery..
/** You keep saying Madonna was vulgar her songs were Vulgar…I would suggest u vist a place called Kodungallur in Kerala…where there is a famous temple which they say was built by famous Tamil King Cheran Sengutavan(to refresh a bit he was brother of famed Ilangovadigal creator of Silapadikaram)…In this temple there is festival called Bharani in march /april were vulgar songs are sung in praise of the goddess….
**/
Karthick.. the kodungallur people did not start a TV channel, and market their life style.. The very comparison itself is illogical, and you are comparing a “Commercially” marketed obscene and vulgarity, with a tantric culture, followed by set of people, without hindrance to other sections..
I dont know the symbology behind the kodungallur temple ritual (like kaavu theendal).. probably archana may know about that.. From what i have read about that Bharani Festival, it appears to be continuation of a Tantric Culture.. Its a kind of spirituality, which we may not agree, but we need to respect their festival, which takes place once in a year, without disturbance to other cultures (as its neither marketed nor compelled over others)..
/** so i dont think we can have this holier than thou attitude about west… **/
i dont understand this logic.. whenever any cheap things happen in the west, we always search that in our culture, and then portray “We are NOT holier than they”.. Such kind of self-degradation is never done by any other country, NOT even the western people..
It seems, you are fine with “They are holier than us” attitude, but not “We are holier than thou”..
/** All I said was folk was dying due to lack of patronage…..and dont feel need to substaniate till Chennai Sangaman none of this guys had a chance to showcase their talents… and folk does not stop with Oppari and Thalatu….
**/
Karthick.. the oppari and thaalatu constitute major portion of folks.. I have personal experiences with folks, and hence i am stating that..
Folks are extinct, mainly because of the drastic change of people’s culture, and the social setup associated with it.. For eg, no mother today, sings thaalaatu, nor the opparis sung during death event.. The reason, there is NO cultural continuance carried forward to the next generation, because, the next generation was taught in macaulay education system, which shaped their mindset in western model, thus looking down upon their own culture followed by their own parents..
For other folk arts, like “Theru koothu”, the main culprit is the entertainment industry, and the medias.. theru koothu appeared “Country” thing, to those who started watching films, and thus, because of people’s change in attitude, it lost the patrons..
The chennai sangamam, was more like a one day “Alms”, and it will not do anything constructive for them.. It will atmost, make the present artisans with some survival.. but the next generation would not pursue this.. a typical loss of one more culture and arts..
Instead, the government should have institutionalised it, and created conducive environment for them to perform at various places..
Sukumar,
I feel, the book “Decolonising History” would be a perfect reply to your comment western technological myths.. I feel, we can have detailed discussion after you have read that book..
The book can be downloaded from
http://psenthilraja.files.wordpress.com/2009/07/decolonisinghistory.doc
My few cents:
Western technology is different from western life style.. Technology is for enriching the culture.. for example, we are using MP3 Player to play our devotional songs..
btw, you have unjustly given the west as the sole owners of every technology, while most important inventions of mankind happened in the east.. wheel, gun powder, compass etc are invented by chinese.. In recent past, the colour television, handycam, etc are invented by japan.. these are eastern nations with cultural similarities with us..
/** Do this – Try to convince 100 families from the nicer localities of Coimbatore like RS Puram
to move to a village where there is no electricity, no bulbs, no motor pumps…………………………..**/
http://www.rediff.com///news/2009/jul/12nervous-china-may-attack-india-in-2012-defence-expert.htm
Sukumar.. Just at the very indication of imminent war, the first thing the urban elites will do is to flee to the remote part of the village, begging the villagers for asylum
… Let’s see, how they are going to live without all the things you mentioned 
Senthil,
Why is it so hard to give credit where it is due? For any major inventions there are multiple claimants from everywhere. There are also some people who claim that every conceivable technology is there in the Vedas. That doesn’t mean anything. The credit goes to the people who market and popularize and make the technology usable.
Mp3 is a case in point. Apple didn’t invent the mp3 player but that is not relevant. It is their iPod that made all of us use a mp3 player. By extension, it is irrelevant, which culture first came up with something (it does matter for historical records, of course), it is who made it popular that matters. Another example – This is why even the numerals are called Hindu-Arabic numerals because Arabs had a major role in transmitting that knowledge to the western world.
95% of all major modern inventions are from the West. This is the truth (there are some exceptions which can be accomodated in the 5%). So to have a lifestyle that doesn’t include any western technology can happen only in someone’s dreams or as i said above in a village where there is no access to anything.
Hope that is clear.
Senthil,
You missed my point. I am asking you to convince your family and 100 other families from Coimbatore to move to the villages. And just in case, that is not clear, it is to prove to you that a lifestyle without any western technology is a delusion.
We are not talking about a war time dislocation of people. I am sure you will realize that during a war people are forced to do things that they may not do otherwise.
Please don’t go off tangent here.
Abdul – Good post.
If a person’s taste in music is evocative of who they are – bearing in mind that “who we are” changes with time – I respect their preferences. And then there are people whose taste in music is yet another expression of their inherent biases, prejudices & ignorance.
Let’s cast aside people who can’t appreciate anything that’s alien to them. Our worlds are as big as our minds. If they choose to cramp their minds & worlds, its their loss.
But about the other kind.
Music can be Dionysian or Apollonian. The former is a celebration of life, while the latter strives for order & peace. Most classical music forms – and some Jazz – are Apollonian. So people may choose 1 kind over the other, its a reflection of their personality.
As a person with strong preferences in music, I detest remixes. I wouldn’t call that fusion music, which can be ethereal.
And Madonna isn’t for everyone. MJ though, was a genius. His music – at least some of his songs – would be, should be appreciated by anyone who professes to have a liking for music.
Priya,
Thanks for a well thought-out comment. I agree that we should be dealing with people whose taste in music reflects a certain breadth and latitude.
The Dionysian/Apollonian classification is superb. While there are personality types and temparaments involved in the choice of one tradition over another, I suppose that at times the same person can be in different mood choices.
Remixes is a subject in itself and I understand your concern there. And yes, I did not have that in mind as fusion music by any stretch of imagination.
MJ seems to have brought vast populations together. And thats why I find reason to cheer him.
Abdul – Thanks. The classification of music as Apollonian/Dionysian is not mine, I borrowed it from Tamil/Malayalam writer Charu Nivedita. Charu hates Ilaya Raja since his music is Apollonian. I love it for the same reason
Well, tastes vary.
Priya,
Learnt 2 new words. I like 80% Apollonian & 20% Dinonysian. For illiterate in this terminology Details here
Kumaran – Yes, my preference would run along similar lines. Mostly Apollonian.
karthick,
I happened to hear the village folks few days back, and my opinion was re-inforced.. Village folks is more of an expression of the singer, rather than the music itself.. We can understand the true spirit of that music, only if we could understand the superbly crafted (yet simple) words of the song.. without the meaning, the village folk would be an uninteresting sound..
I remember in my child hood, how i hated Oppari.. But, few years back, one person from malaysia, released a book, containing collection of folksongs (lyrics only).. after reading this, i understood how rich are those songs in expressing the joys/sorrows/ (even hatred
)..
I think, the difference b/w POP and folk is that in the former, we enjoy the sounds in harmony,.. whereas, in the later (folks), we appreciate the content of the song, reinforced with a plain music..
That’s why, ilayaraja’s music is different from present day western music.. in the former, we enjoy the songs and its ragams which is appreciated at the intellectual level (by interpreting both music and content), while in the later, we enjoy the beats and orchestra.. there was some kind of abstraction in the former.. (this is just my observation.. )
Let me quote some examples..
“”இளமை என்னும் பூங்காற்று…”
Hope, you remember the above song.. Even though its highly romantic song , there is a “Nalinam” in it, and it doesnt look vulgar ..
Compare the above with the following..
“கட்டிப்புடி கட்டிப்புடிடா…”
“கல்யாணம் கட்டிக்கிட்டு ஓடிப்போகலாமா…”
There is a differerence, in the quality of the above songs..
If we consider the history of music in the past 50 years, the quality of music in general (both indian and western) has depleted considerably.. The west first started with introducing seducing elements, like sexy madonna etc, as a cheap marketing strategy..
And indian entertaining industry followed that..
Compare the level of obscenity, vulgarity, in classical films with the modern one.. we can understand the degradation..
The taste of people is influenced a lot by the quality of the music, particularly when there is no alternative..
Very few songs of tamil film industry maintains that quality.. Consider the song “ஒவ்வொரு பூக்களுமே..” .. it was so impressive, that many schools adopted it as prayer song..
We need such songs to maintain the standards of the music..
Btw, few months back, i posted MS’s song in my blog..
http://psenthilraja.wordpress.com/2008/11/11/kurai-onrum-illai-by-ms-subulakshmi/
I was so surprised at the comments i got.. I could not decide, whether its the raaga, or the lyric or the devotion of MS, that attracts so many people towards it..
/** Let’s cast aside people who can’t appreciate anything that’s alien to them. Our worlds are as big as our minds. If they choose to cramp their minds & worlds, its their loss.
**/
Priya.. In that case, can we say, most of the westerners are “Kattupettis” (or narrow minded)
.. since they dont know anything about eastern music..
I feel, our world is as big as how deep we had understood the culture & history we live..
An interesting interview with pavan-k-varma by kanchan gupta published in pioneer .
http://www.dailypioneer.com/244684/Pavan-K-Varma-in-conversation-with-Kanchan-Gupta.html
I think, its appropriate to share it here..
Few excerpts from the above article.
There is a language of communication and there is a language of culture. The language of culture is a window to your history, mythology, folklore, proverbs, idioms, to your creativity … and it’s the language in which we cry and laugh. There is no contradiction between the two. Recent research shows that all those who are well-grounded first in their mother tongue pick up a foreign language that much faster.
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Look at the state of our humanities departments, not an original work! This is the country of Nalanda? Doctoral theses are being written with footnotes by foreign scholars. Look at the state of our literature, the man who won the Bharatiya Gnanpeeth told me his books sell less than a thousand copies. Look at the state, pardon my saying so, of even our book reviews. If you are in the UK, the country that colonised us, on the weekend any broadsheet will have 30 to 40 pages only on book reviews. Here we have leading newspapers who have dispensed with book reviews!
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Exactly! Look at the state of classical dance… I mean I have been a cultural administrator also. Top exponents of a parampara which goes back 3,000 years have to telephone friends for days before a performance to fill a hall when the entrance is free. Look at the state of classical music, the raga represents a 4,000-year-old parampara and it is a very delicate structure… the elaboration of the mood the gradual vistaar and the drut… Today we have eminent musicians performing like adolescent pop stars, catering to the lowest common denominator of an audience.
Now, I am not against pop culture. In Hyde Park — I have lived in London — when you have a pop music performance thousands go for it. But on the same day I have seen people queuing up from 11 in the morning at 20 pounds a pop to attend a performance of Western classical music. Mature civilisations nurture both. We cannot be reduced to a sterile simplicity that it is either popular culture or nothing else at all. So these are things we need to think about.