The Soul of Success
The Soul of SuccessUpdated 18 March 2009: Please visit part 2 of this post for more info.
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We have had several discussions on this blog about Expertise, Passion , Talent , S Curve etc – what i would call Meta-Lifehacks. Although, these topics give us some ideas on what it takes to succeed, there is one aspect of success that has had me tortured for years (italicized for effect):
How we think about our goals seem to make a big difference to whether we succeed or not.
For example, when i started this blog i set out with the ambitious goal of becoming one of the top blogs on the Internet. Today, it sounds ridiculous to me that i thought about our blog in that way. God knows what i was smoking 
Highly likely this blog will never achieve that goal. And hence i did not succeed. However, this blog has helped me in many ways beyond my wildest imagination. It has taught me things that i would not have learnt in a million years and has had a significant impact on my career. Still, per my goal i didn’t succeed.
How many times have we seen people that set out to make a lot of money but end up with a lot less money than they hoped?
In the same way, i am sure we can all point to people that we know who wanted to become famous, but never achieved their goal.
Does this mean that we should not have ambitious goals? For example, had i decided i want to be just another blog on the Internet, i would clearly have succeeded magnificently.
Our ancient wisdom doesn’t seem to help either. If I turn to the famous shloka from the Bhagavad Gita (One of Ancient India’s most cited religious scripture):
Same shloka transliterated for those that can’t read Sanskrit:
Translated into English:
In other words, your actions cannot be dependent upon expected results. If the results don’t motivate us, what does?
Does that mean that we should not have goals? How can we do something without any goals?
I am happy to say I have found some answers to these questions and I will cover it in part 2 of this post.
Meanwhile, i want to know what you all think?
for the sake of the action .. is enough
Interesting! i very well believe in the above shloka from Gita. My opinion is that we must have goals as goals help us to eliminate fear, look at what we want to do in a more structured way, mobilize our actions accordingly and get a buy-in from ourselves also to make sacrifices. Moreover, when Sri Krishna recited this shloka to Arjun, he wanted Arjun to eliminate fear, concentrate on the big picture and make him realize what his Karma is.
On a lighter note, i want to be a worldwide top KM GURU one day, I may or may not achieve that during my life but what’s the harm in trying…:) for (it is said Aim for the moon, even if you miss, you may land amongst the stars……)
- Dr. Meenu Sharma
Thanks Gregory. Are you saying that “for the sake of the action..” is enough to succeed?
yes, certainly it is enough for success … and that is what i think the gita is saying as well …
as an aside, “success” is yet another concept that will be undergoing some heavy re-valuation in the next three or four years ..
Thanks Meenu. i do understand the context in which the shloka was used in the Gita. The problem i have is this – a goal is a result (or fruit) of the action you are taking. But the shloka says don’t expect a fruit/result of your action. How does one do that?
All the best for becoming a worldwide KM Guru. But my point again is that success seems to be depend on the nature of the goal. For instance, if i said i want to make a lot of money from KM, it does not seem to lead to success.
In other words, i am trying to contemplate the nature of the goal and its bearing on success.
Thanks for the clarification Gregory. Yes, that is what the Gita says. However, i have a problem with that. Because you need some goals you are working towards and by definition goals are a product of your action.
no, you don’t need goals, be yea as the lillies in the field, etc … the ego might not agree, but the self is whole and complete, already ..
if you have surrendered to anything, god, guru, cause, you have learned that life, “higher self”, however you want to call it, has goals for you far greater than any your, our, limited minds can make today …
Gregory,
Thanks. I think i somewhat understand. let me rephrase – you are saying when you submit to God or other higher power, the egotistical need for goals disappears and thence actions need not bear fruits.
what are goals? and why do we have them? from one point of view it is because we feel the present is not enough … if the present IS enough, how then would you live? if you won the lottery, how would you spend your time? do that now
the fruits are up to god, is what the gita is saying .. and that is true, we have words like fate, destiny, karma .. sayings like “the best-laid plans of mice and men” etc. …
the only moment we have any control over is this one, here and now .. take care of the present in a most practical manner, and the future will take care of itself ..
Thanks a lot Gregory for explaining your point so well. Now i get it.
ah, i just put two and two together .. i follow you on twitter .. have lived in tiruvannamalai for many years, though at the moment am in beijing …
there is a great deal of need for unifying business and “spirituality” because the principles of consciousness, and especially of dharma are globally in great need …
in my point of view, the concept of dharma is actually india’s greatest gift to the world, far greater than i.t. prowess …
i will be back in tamil nadu at the end of march, maybe we can have lunch ..
enjoy, gregory
Thanks Gregory. I need to think about the unification of business and “spirituality”. Interesting perspective. i follow you on twitter as well. Please do DM me when you are in chennai. Will be happy to have lunch.
The sloka from The Gita talks more about action, less about goals.
f1(a1)+f2(a2)+…….+fN(aN) = GOAL!!!
Where
aN = action by the self
fN(0) = 0
The sloka is stressing that (fN(aN)/GOAL!!!) may not be big enough to motivate one and one should not depend on it.
It also states that one should not not do what they should be doing to progress towards their goal. (fN(0) = 0)
As Gandhi put it much simpler: “Almost everything you do will seem insignificant, but it is important that you do it.”
The incremental benefit of every activity, some tough, one does may not be visibly tangible and motivating enough for the person to continue doing it, even though he/she understands that in the long run it will take them closer to their definition of success.
It is at these times one’s choice, to or not to perform the activity concerned gains significance. One’s choice to “be strong” or “be weak” will define their commitment to success.
Malcolm Gladwell in his latest book ‘Outlier’ states that one needs to put in ten thousand hours (10,000) in a area of activity of one’s interest to ,possibly, succeed in that field. He states it is the bare minimum required for qualifying for success. In addition, he states, socio-economic factors, geographical factors & coincidences (luck) plays a huge factor in one’s success.
Commitment to one’s self is a critical factor to success. The sloka may as well be talking about commitment.
Thanks for such a thought-provoking post!
Here’s how I’ve been looking at it:
Everything we experience is created/affected by the thoughts/emotions/energy of HOW we are be-ing, while we do everything that we do, and then how we go on to interact with the “unfolding” (the repercussions/ extending ripples) of what we do.
In as much as setting goals creates attachments, setting goals would not be useful, for it is the attachments we form to things that limit our experiences and generate the suffering that so many seem to accept as the natural state of life/ being.
Are “outcome” goals insidiously attachment-based, therefore inevitably leading to experiences which will not feel joyful, lifeful, momentful? (making up words, trying to express what I am feeling…)
Can one have goals and not have attachment to the outcomes as good or bad, right or wrong?
To the degree that we are able to answer “yes, we can” – is the extent to which goals, in all their fluidity and focus, are useful and beneficial to the experiences we choose.
The invitation, truly, is about how we are be-ing, the we that we are, and simply being with the emanations that ensue.
~thank you!~
Sukumar,
I guess it is the journey or the means to the end that is more important than the end/goal itself. Or is this a cop out for people who have not attained the level of success they set out to achieve in the first place
Personally, I know it is the journey that matters and the things we learn about ourselves along the way, but I am spiritually not there yet to be able to put this into practice. I still judge myself by the end result. Can I take solace in the fact that half the battle is won since I know what the problem is
There are instances as well where a company set out to do something and along the way morphed their agenda. Just as your definition of success changed as this blog evolved, I do believe that in a lot of instances, the journey does define or changes the goal or the way you define success.
That is a wonderful post Sukumar……
But how do we define goals?Should be tangible or intangible? or as the shloka says will just path alone do….
If that is the case there is another old saying which says that ” Path does not matter by the destination should be the temple”
I dont know ..but u have made us think…
The sloka you put is something that confused me years ago. But I seem to understand it a little better now. Goals/success are relative in nature. Success is relative to me / my perspective / my knowledge. My goal is a derivative of my intent. My goal is constrained by my knowledge/perspective.
Something I have expereinced is my intent is pure but my goal setting will always be at a level of immaturity as I can never see all the perspectives. May if I can see all perspectives, I would be the one called OD
.
So I know for sure that I can never define my goal and hence my success because I will always lack the big picture. So does that mean I go to sleep without any goal setting. NO!! I tell myself with the current knowledge I have X is the goal and attaining that means success and go after it. But in another plane I know that this X is not written on rock.
So, the trick is define a goal , so you can define you actions. But don’t give a weightage factor to your goal’s results but give it to the actions you perform and derive you satisfaction/motivation from the actions performed.
completely believe in the sloka… how true it is
Sukumar – A thought provoking post.
At first glance, it seems to me that “Gita” wants us to defy brain chemistry & its reward circuitry. Not worry about the results? How’s that humanly possible?
That led me to question the meaning of the word “Result”. If I start singing, I may not become the next Celine Dion, but there would be other results. I may sing well enough to please myself & those around me. I may meet like-minded people who love singing as much as I do. I may learn about great composers. In the worst case, I may find out I have no talent for singing whatsoever – and find something else to do.
So, is the “Gita” asking us to not strait-jacket the definition of “Results”? Perhaps we shouldn’t have blinders on & seek only what we originally set out to accomplish. Mutate if necessary, Morph if demanded – is that what the “Gita” says? If you achieve some other result, take that path?
Hi Sukumar,
An intriguing post. If we seek success without goals, then I think one way of doing that is make our actions work on our passion. If we are passionate about what we do , we tend to work on it day in and day out and invariably become good at it which ultimately leads to results. For instance, when A R Rahman first set out for a career in music, I do not think he had winning oscar as his goal( I am assuming winning oscar as the ultimate goal which need not be true ). But all his acheivements are the result of his passion for music and the hard work that his passion forced him to put in.
Eagerly looking forward to your next post.
Arun,
Thanks. Why do you think the shloka is not about the goals? I think the shloka is specifically prohibiting one from seeking the fruits/results/goals for one actions and focus on the action. If it was mainly about action, it wouldn’t be talking about results.
As other commenters above have opined, it is probably saying that one shouldn’t get attached to the results but focus on the action. And the reason it specifically talks about results is because that is what we typically do – evaluate the action based on its result.
Hope that helps?
BTW, Outliers is a good book that i read as well. I do plan on drawing some ideas from it in the next post(s).
Elz,
Thanks a lot. Interesting perspective. Having goals but not being attached to them is a great insight. I guess that approach would allow one to flex the goals based on the ground realities.
However, to me it seems that having goals is important. What i have been bothered about as i said in my post is the nature of the goals themselves. Assuming goals are important, what sort of goals make the most sense ? – that is what i am attempting to find.
Ganesh,
thanks. Atleast in my case, the blogging example i gave is a cop out. What i am trying to find out is this – is it possible to have ambitious goals but at the same time not feel bad when one doesn’t realize them without it having to be a copout?
Elz above says maybe we can try not to be attached to the goals. That is a great insight, but that still leaves us with the question – what if we don’t meet the goal?
i know this is a set of difficult questions. But i can already see the wisdom of the community pouring forth in the comments.
Karthik,
Thanks. You have added another question – should the goal be tangible or intangible? I think that is a great way to think about goals. look forward to your answers. What do you think? Or should we be content with the journey without bothering about the results (which to me atleast is a cop out as Ganesh puts it).
Kumaran,
Interesting perspective. Yours is somewhat in line with Elz’s view that we should not be attached to the goals. But you have added the additional insight of – setting a Goal X based on current knowledge and revising that as time goes on. Very interesting.
Satyam,
Thanks. I think it is a great shloka and probably one of the most thought provoking ones from the Gita. i like the shloka as well, but i am trying to peel the onion further to see how much more i can understand about it.
What do you think about the question i asked? Does the shloka mean that we should not have goals?
Thanks Priya. At first glance it does seem like defying neuroscience. But i think there is more to it than that.
You gave a great example of singing. And i have a question and that goes to the crux of what i am thinking about. Let us say, we set ourself a goal of singing well enough to please ourselves and our friends, would that be sufficient to be successful? If singing were the main line of work for you, would you be content with that type of a goal?
Thanks Sudharshan. You are absolutely right. Passion is definitely a key ingredient and we have covered how to become passionate in a previous post.
I think being passionate alone is not enough. As i said in my post, the goal we set for ourselves seems to matter a lot. So the question is what sort of goal should we set ? As you correctly pointed out, it is highly unlikely that AR Rahman would have set himself a goal of winning the oscar. Also, i want to exclude the prodigies and geniuses like Rahman from this discussion.
For regular people, what should the goal be in their chosen line of work to be successful?
Sukumar,
This sloka has been one of the most intense debate in various circles.. the problem i feel is not with the sloka, but with the way we understand it.. i had put up lot of thoughts in this and summarising below.. (dont know if i am right..)
Practically speaking, there is no action without goals.. even a minor action has a nearest goal..
but krishna had advised NOT to have rights on the results.. how do we interpret this?
In my opinion, goals and results are different things.. goals is what we aim to do, and the results are consequences of achieving that goal..
In mahabaratha, the goal of arjuna is winning the war.. (i hope, there is no second thought in it).. and the results that krishna speaks about is the consequences arising out of achieving that goal.. ie winning that war..
the consequences (results) are both positive and negatives.. acquiring the empire is the positive consequence.. but the negative consequence was more.. like losing the acharya, losing the brothers, losing so much of lives etc.. in this case, arjuna was carried over by the negative consequences, that he lost interest in the war..
So, if we understand these circumstances of bagavat gita, we may be dynamic enough in applying this concept to our own life..
my conclusion is that we should not only have goals, but we should make sure that those goals are achieved.. but we should be matured enough to detach ourselves from the fruits of achieving that goal..
(Am i making any sense here ? please bear me if not
)
Also, i would like to comment on the word “Prescribed activities”.. many will invoke karma theory or high & low caste.. but, in my understanding, the prescribed activities means, the one that we are bound to do out of the circumstances or contract or commitment..
If i am a king, i have the duty to protect the people.. that was by default the activity prescribed out of my position and power.. if i am a teacher, the prescribed duty was to teach.. etc etc..
I still think it talks about actions and not about a grander goal.
It talks about ‘activities’ and ‘results’ and not ‘activities’ and ‘result’.
It says, my interpretation though, one should do what they need to do irrespective of the outcomes/results of their actions. The word ‘result’ has an immediacy to it when compared to the word ‘goal’.
For example, if my goal is to discipline myself to wake up everyday by 6:30am. (Painfully true one
)
If I wake up 6:15am the first day, I should not be overblown by a sense of achievement.
If I wake up at 7:30am on the second day, it should not deter me from trying it the third day.
I strongly feel that is what the sloka is saying. I think we differ in the interpretation of the sloka at a fractal level.
Great post. In nutshell, whatever we(human) do, we are not responsible for the outcome, everything is god. All are god….god is the one who is responsible for one’s action’s(results). In tamil it is “Kadamai yei sei, pallaannai ether parathey, ellem avan seyal”. Pallan is from god, one may or may out receive correct result from god even though they did it all right. The results was given based on karma. For some they do lot of things but they would not get all because some of them taken for his/her karma as punishment, some get more than they want because of his/her karma as gift. If one got more than what they did, thank god and do more, if one got less than they did, don’t demotivate, it is also because of god, do more and more.
-Subba
If results dont inspire me to work towards any set goal then what is that that will inspire me to go on everyday. waking up everyday and breathing and living is a result of our inner motivation for survival.
I can hardly stop thinking in any situation be it in an interview or in a doctor’s office. What is it that will get me the job or get rid of the pain ?
If Lord krishna wants me to just focus on the action so be it. But by human nature I want to be able to look forward to things. If i dont look forward to any result positive/ negative then what is my purpose in this world. If the tennis player is not movtivated to get something in return like money or fame then he would not be interested in playing. on the other hand.. people derive thier action based on comparison with some one else’s result say like I want to be like AR Rahman .. why ?? he got 2 oscars . Does any one stop and think that is just a result and no one ever thinks that he works like day and night burning the midnight oil.
There is one goal no matter how hard you try can be measured is the self satisfaction.when do people say I am happy with what I have, what I do and I do my job well.
Mother’s love for all her kids is the same , when the baby is born we dont know what is destined for he or she to be in future, but the parents do love her/him anyway .
Out action does not change knowing the fact that the kid may or may not meet the expectation. In that case why we dont take every action in our life the same. It will be a beautiful world if we dont have set expectation for all our little actions.
Goals need not alway be the promotion or the big house or a land rover it is a progressive .I will be happy if I made changes to my life everyday to be a better person and anything that helps me love my state of being alive.
Great post Sukumar. I think the community we have here can discuss anything from masala movies to metaphysical/ spiritual stuff and broaden my views of different things. I am proud of this.
Coming to the post, in my opinion it is a very subjective feeling about how one feels after attaining one’s goal. I could see some possibilities
1) Feel elated and have a sense of achievement
2) Feel elated at the same time introspect how it is achieved. (morals/ethics/principles formed during the journey could come to one’s mind. Or those that were compromised will come to mind).
3) Feel empty and think of next goal
4) Mixture of these feelings in different stages
In some cases, our success could become magnified due to recognition it gets. Will it make the goal any bigger than it was originally aimed at? Sometimes a top notch output may go unrecognized. Does it make it any less? At least in the mind of the person who reached that goal, it will remain same. At the same times some goals aim at getting recognized particularly arts etc. No normal artist will love live in animosity.
Anyway…these are some thoughts around the wonderful subject
Sukumar, I am getting so much from this on-going contemplation and conversation you have opened for us here, I thank everyone for sharing their insights and further thought-enticing questions and comments.
It seems to me that the goals that make the most sense are the goals that you would most like to experience.
That said, however, to me, invites the further awareness of “context”
Recently, my own thoughts have been focusing on basic life premise, life choices, and, ultimately, how we feel about our lives (often related to whether or not we deem ourselves “successful” ).
What I have been looking at includes:
-from what premise, what basic life understanding, have we made our goals
-from what premise have we defined success
and, as has been pointed to in the conversations here,
-how attached are we to our definition of success; and is that definition rigid, or fluid?
And of course, as many have asked, *how* have we defined success?
Is “success” the *achievement* of our stated goals?
If we are rigidly attached to the idea of a goal as first stated, and that particular VIEW of the goal that we were attached to, does not then show up as we were envisioning it – will we then so deeply impact our lives by determining that we, or life, is unsuccessful?
(My next question is, if we would so predetermine and dismiss ourselves and our lives and our experiences that way, WHY? )
Or can success be living a life we are ENJOYING, while going about having the experience of setting goals and going about achieving them, BE-ing in the state of ENJOYMENT we have chosen. (Well, if that were our goal, then, there would be no question that we have been successful, right?)
You see: success being the feeling associated with the PROCESS, rather than making it about the “final” achievement.
Hah! I’m not sure if I’m getting more clarity, or coming up with more questions, or dancing in circles.
Now that I think of it, clarity and more questions are not either/or, they are AND.
~Thanks to All~
amazing just how little sadhana it takes to completely remove these questions …
of course, if you are not doing any …
Senthil,
Your interpretation is pretty good. I think Elz (terrascene) also pointed out above, prior to you, that maybe we should not be attached to the goals. I think that makes a lot of sense. However, it still does not answer the question about what sort of goals we should have? whether we are attached to the goal per se or not, we still need to work towards a goal, right?
As for your second point, let us skip the caste system here because that will take us on a different discussion.
Arun,
I thought you were the one that said goal is a sum of all function(actions). We always need to move towards a goal action by action right. If you take a literal translation of the shloka, yes the word goal is not mentioned. But results or fruits are mentioned. When you aggregate results over time you get to your goals. Goal need not be one grand goal always. it can be a collection of goals.
Subba,
thanks. The tamil verse you mention, i think is the same shloka in tamil. yes not being attached to the goals seems to be the consensus opinion that is emerging – see Terrascene, Kumaran and Senthil’s response prior to you.
Ila,
Interesting perspective. Yes there do seem to be some actions for which the expectations are not set – babies for example. But isn’t there some implicit expectation that the child will do well in life? Love for the child regardless of the child’s accomplishments does not change, but can the same be said about our expectations for the child to do well in life?
You are right. Goal need not be the big house or the corner office. But what should it be for us to enjoy the journey as well as the destination.
Thanks Vamsi. I do feel the same way about the community on this blog. Very inspiring to me, the kind of thinking that pours in.
You are right, the feeling after attaining a goal is subjective. You are right also in that sometimes top notch output may get unnoticed. This is why i think the group is advising that we detach ourselves from the goals.
As i said before, that still leaves us with the question – what should the nature of the goal be so that it still motivates us to move towards it? Because as we all know, if we don’t own up to the goal, we may not put our full effort behind it.
Elz,
interesting thought process. I think Ganesh alluded to this above, that is focusing on the journey and enjoying it and not making the goal the precondition of success. Priya also talked about making the journey enjoyable with her example of singing.
I think there is merit in this. But what i worry is that by detaching ourselves from the goal, we somehow don’t put our whole effort behind it? At the same time, if we get too attached that it becomes too tied to success, we get affected by that.
Tough problem, i guess.
One way to reconcile (not sure)? – that the journey is so enjoyable that the attainment or non-attainment of the goal does not matter at all.
But then leads us to defining the journey instead of the goal. That is fine. What should be the defining characteristics of the journey?
I think we are getting somewhere with this.
if you need motivation, it is not a goal, it is a psychological compensation ..
goals are you as yourself, expressing exactly what only you can express, and take no doing at all …. only being … being is enough for everything in life …
don’t do, just be … this is the essence of every spiritual teaching in every culture of the world …
Greg,
thanks. I don’t do any sadhanas. Do a bit of pranayama. Nothing to write home about. I am a regular folk i guess.
Thanks Gregory. You are right, spiritual teachers will agree with what you are saying. Not sure i have reached that level of maturity yet.
Sukumar,
A very interesting and thought-provoking post.
How, why and when do we set goals?? We do that when we want more, with the limited knowledge/resource we have about our goal. We set our goal & embark on the journey, giving it our 100%. What I think happens is that, the new knowledge that we gain along the path, makes us redefine our goal and we start working towards the new/redefined one and the cycle continues. However, if with the knowledge gained, our initial goals make more sense, we work harder in achieving them.
I don’t think there is such a thing as ‘detaching ourselves from our goals’ – at that point, it just ceases to be a goal; we end our journey, set a new goal and take a new path.
My humble interpretation of Bhagwad Gita sloka is that ,while we are working towards our goal, one shouldn’t loose focus and be affected (positive or negative) by the temporary results (temporary being the key-word & not results).
Timely post for me – I was thinking about the ‘Goal Setting’ since the new year. Many of the life-coaches advice as part of the new year resolution setting was to ’set realistic goals’ – I just happened to see this realistic goal setting frequently and started wondering – whatever happened to aiming higher?
Guess the saying aptly puts it – Aim for the stars, and you’ll (at least) reach the sky.
By aiming really high, you are motivating yourself to achieve the impossible which then carries you through the journey. After a while, the journey itself becomes the motivator (provided you had aimed high in the first place and working really hard towards it) – So guess it becomes sort of recursive…
But again, dont know if the explanation can be applied to all, say athletes. Or the Apollo13 crew – they aimed for the moon, reached the sky but am sure are still disappointed?
Tough question Sukumar – Let me do more thinking while waiting for your Part-2
-Sibu
Have been thinking about this a bit more. In the case of Gita, I think Krishna tells Arjuna to set his goals right. It is that the goal should not be to win the war, but to root out evil. Winning the war is a by product (or means to the end) of rooting out the evil. So, if Arjuna focuses on the process of winning the war, the goal could automatically be achieved and result would be success. So, focus on the process or the immediate means necessary to achieve the end goal and it will hopefully bear fruit.
However, if Pandavas made winning the war their goal, once they achieved that, they may themselves become the next Kauravas!!
Make sure you set the goals appropriately and it probably needs to be a bit abstract that will leave enough wiggle room to enjoy the process.
One other example – a student should set his/her goal as – “I will learn fundamentals of math and science right so that I can pursue higher education at a good school”. The goal should not be to just get into any engineering college.
Hema,
Thanks. That is very insightful – temporary results.
Thanks Sibu. You have highlighted the difficulties of goal setting with great examples. Yes, it is difficult indeed.
Ganesh,
you nailed it man. This is brilliant – “winning the war” is a byproduct. Your example of the student was very apt. The difference between goal and byproducts is a key distinction. That is the point that has been not as well articulated in the comments so far. Hema has done a very good job calling it temporary results. Senthil also got it to an extent.
I think with this, we are ready to tackle the topic in a much better way in the next post. Sibu has given me a breather with his post.
Sukumar,
After reading all these perspectives of the sloka, I am also tempted to express my views
we create the goals and we deal with its journey and results
every goal is limited, but there can be unlimited goals
there are only 2 possible results from each goal, success or no success. this is already given
lord krishna is just reminding us that if you are dependent or attached to the results, either you are happy or sad. We always expect good results. But if we understand that there are two possibilities, then you are prepared to face the consequences. So to maintain our internal balance, he wants us to be aware of these possibilities of the results and be focused on the goals. But he is not saying that we should not enjoy the results. But just that we should not always be dependent or attached to one side of those results and suffer if there are bad results
Nice Topic.
Reiterating some old things …
Its the journey that matters and not the goal. If you make distant goals then u have to walk fast and miss some nice things on the way. Enjoy your life than chasing dreams
Got this poem in a SPAM mail
SLOW DANCE
Have you ever
watched
kids
On a merry-go-round?
Or listened to
the
rain
Slapping on the ground?
Ever followed a
butterfly’s erratic flight?
Or gazed at the sun into the
fading
night?
You better slow down.
Don’t
dance so
fast.
Time is short.
The music
won’t
last.
Do you run through each day
On
the
fly?
When you ask How are you?
Do you hear
the
reply?
When the day is done
Do you lie
in your
bed
With the next hundred chores
Running through
your head?
You’d better
slow down
Don’t dance so
fast.
Time is
short.
The music won’t
last.
Ever told your
child,
We’ll do it
tomorrow?
And in your
haste,
Not see
his
sorrow?
Ever lost
touch,
Let a good
friendship die
Cause you
never had time
To call
and say,’Hi’
You’d
better slow down.
Don’t dance
so fast.
Time
is short.
The music won’t
last.
When you run
so fast to get somewhere
You
miss half the fun of getting
there.
When you worry and hurry
through your
day,
It is like an unopened
gift….
Thrown
away.
Life is not a
race.
Do take it
slower
Hear the
music
Before the song is
over.
Narendra,
Thanks. nice interpretation. i think you are right.
rajesh,
thanks. journey is no doubt important. having dreams/goals does not automatically mean that you don’t enjoy the present or that you have to move towards your goal at breakneck speed. Goals are a way to understand where you need to go. You can have a goal, enjoy the journey, not run at breakneck speed, meet the goal and still be happy.
The poem is nice as well. Thanks for sharing.
/** In the case of Gita, I think Krishna tells Arjuna to set his goals right. It is that the goal should not be to win the war, but to root out evil. Winning the war is a by product (or means to the end) of rooting out the evil.
**/
@ganesh,
I totally agree with your above points.. rooting out the evil was what krishna tells arjuna.. your point is really enlightening..
/** I think Elz (terrascene) also pointed out above, prior to you, that maybe we should not be attached to the goals. I think that makes a lot of sense. However, it still does not answer the question about what sort of goals we should have? whether we are attached to the goal per se or not, we still need to work towards a goal, right?
**/
Sukumar,
I feel, we may be attached to the goal.. but we should not be attached on the results.. only result has the duality.. ie success or no success.. however, goals has only one path.. ie to achieve it.. ie to do the right work.. (pls correct me if i am wrong)..
What sort of goals we should have? this is a trivial question.. it depends on various factor.. probably you may be dealing with larger goals.. but as i said earlier, for every action that we do have a short term goal.. if we do the cooking, the goal is to feed the hunger.. if we go to a mall, the goal is purchase.. so, life’s minute activities is driven by goal.. these goals are implicit by circumstances and the need of the hour/day..
But for life’s larger goals, it all depends on how we are brought up and the mental make up.. for majority of the people in india, leading a family successfully & happily may be a life time goal.. for many, achieving something that others could not do, may be a goal.. for few, helping the society may be their ultimate goal.. (like kamarajar, who sacrificed even his family life)..
But one thing is clear.. goals (whether short term or long term) give direction to our life.. when there is no goal, then we may end up in depression.. those who attach themselves with the results, may go through joy and sorrow.. and those who detach from the results, may cross over these things and attain the wisdom..
So, for the question of what sort of goals, i will better leave it to the individual choice..
Secondly, the question of detachment can be very well understood by the purpose behind it.. ie to overcome sorrow and joy..
i have an anology to the phrase “we should do our work always remembering the god”..
a mother doesnt feel tired of caring the child.. its out of affection and the happiness of doing for her child.. similarly, when we do our duty as a dedication to our god, we may attain perfection in our work.. when we have the feeling of doing it to our belowed eternal god (krishna in most cases), our involvement in the work we do, increases multifold, just as a mother’s involvement in the work, if it is done for her child..
Sukumar,
What i had meant to say was choose your journey and then your goals . Goals are just markers but are not dispensable as you said.
Senthil conveys the same idea as myself, but he is from a religious standpoint while i am from a worldly and practical standpoint
Thanks Senthil.
The more i think about it, i think you are right, we should be attached to the goal but not to the byproducts (Ganesh’s point).
The problem i have is, with your assertionm that the goal should be left to the individual choice. That is traditionally how we view goals. However, the purpose of my post is to explore what could constitute a good goal? This is because of my observation that it is the goals that seem to determine we are successful or not.
Ganesh again presents an insightful thought there – he says the goal should be abstract enough to allow us to enjoy the process. That has given me a great starting point for thinking about this. I will cover it in my next post.
Ganesh also gave a good example of a student’s goals.
Senthil,
I think for the religiously minded your thought about “doing it for God” would appeal. I am trying to figure out a way to explain without employing religion so that it is universally applicable.
Thanks Rajesh. Interesting thought – you are saying choose the journey not the goal. Does Ganesh’s definition of an abstract goal fit the idea of choosing the journey?
few commenters here know advaita, or do sadhana, it seems
Gregory,
Speaking for myself, i think i understand Advaita somewhat and i don’t do sadhana. I also don’t understand how these 2 fit with the topic of this post?
The only reason i brought up the Gita is because it is one religious document that raises profound questions.
My objective is to keep this discussion outside the purview of religion.
sorry .. i posted that after reading the entire comment thread .. and upon reflection, should not have been surprised .. in any ashram library will be about two meters of gita translations, commentaries, interpretations, etc … enjoy
I wouldnt say abstract goals. Choose your journey and then make concrete markers of your goal.
Most of the problems in this world are attributed to holding on to your goals without considering the means to it. Americans wanted to push the communists out of Afghanistan by encouraging the radical groups and now they are paying their price. LTTE has a noble cause of freeing the Tamils from oppression of Srilankan Govt but the way they do it has bred hatred for them.
Gandhi chose his path first – ahimsa and then he achieved the one he wanted for South Africans and then Indians. Gandhi may not have achieved a truly non racist community nor an undivided united India but he did reach out to the whole world with his ways and left a hope. Mother Teresa may not have eradicated Leprosy or poverty from Calcutta but she has left behind her noble ways of serving the poor with a heart rather than money. You and me can never be like those people and even if we do set Goals to become one we may never achieve it but we can contribute something if we manage to follow their path.
Coming down to our simple life, we run after degrees, promotions,posts and popularity but we never enjoy the journey we take towards achieving it nor giving importance to it. I have heard a lot of old people say that they missed the journey and want to run again and this time not for the goals but just for looking at the way they took.
When you set out to perform something, you may have an expectation of what your action WOULD yield ….. However, you cannot have a fixation on what it OUGHT TO yield.
I think the emphasis should be on ‘attachment’
You do your duty with a sense of detachment towards its result ….. else, you end up doing something LUSTING towards the end result, which can possibly lead you astray.
When you set out to perform something, you MAY have an EXPECTATION of what your action WOULD yield ….. You CANNOT have a FIXATION on what it OUGHT TO yield.
I think the emphasis should be on ‘attachment’
You choose to do your duty with a sense of detachment towards the result ….. else, you end up doing something LUSTING after the result, which can possibly lead you astray to a case of ‘the ends justifying the means’.
Kannan,
What a surprise to see you visiting the blog. You are right, attachment to the goal may not be appropriate. Please read the second part and comment.
Thanks for your clarification Rajesh. Please read the next part of this post.
Amazing! Simply amazing! First of all, I must congratulate this whole community on Sastwingees.org for the mind-boggling variety of perspectives and sincere discussion/debate. Sukumar: I must say I am almost jealous. Not everyone can find and motivate such a community to engage in such a wonderful discussion. While I blog – most of the time – for myself…there are times when I know that only a conversation/discussion will throw light. This blog has what it takes to generate knowledge!
Now, to the post. I am pretty late to the ‘knowledge’ party. Saw the post only yesterday and couldn’t respond immediately for I wanted to run through all the comments and that took me some time. So, unfortunately or fortunately, most of what I might have said had I read the post earlier has been said by many others. I, nevertheless, want to use the opportunity to write down what *I* think…as it would be a good idea to summarize my own thoughts especially taking all the comments into consideration. If it happens to generate some more discussions and ideas, all the better.
1. My first thought on reading your post was: But…a goal is different from the results of the goal and the Gita Slokha you refer to talks about the *results* and NOT the goal. Someone has already explained that. So, I guess I must not waste everyone’s time repeating that.
2. The Gita Slokha only talks about being detached from the results (whether we finally succeed or not). From what I’ve read (books on the Gita) it simply means that we’ve got to be emotionally intelligent. We must not let the results (temporary or otherwise) deter us from either pursuing the goal (never give up) or modifying the goal (get more intelligent and change the methods/processes/tools). Being attached to the results will shake us up in the wrong way – we get emotional and may even lose sight of the goal ultimately. Someone has already mentioned this as well.
3. I also belong to the school of thought that believes that the journey matters more than the destination. The means are as important as the end if not more. So, focusing on the results of the goal (as opposed to the goal per se) means we lose the joy that is embedded in the *journey*. And it is the journey that makes us what we are…not the goal or the achievement of the goal. [I think that's really important]. It is the journey that gives us the strength, the values, the skills, the contacts, the experience, the learning etc. The goal is what the society gets to see (as opposed to the journey that we went through). But the goal does not make us what we are – deep within. It is journey that allows us to achieve another goal of the same order. If we were to have achieved the goal without concentrating on the journey, I suspect that we will never be able to achieve another such goal. It becomes a flash in the pan. It is only a matter of time before the society forgets that we exist.
4. Regarding the type of goal we must set for ourselves, I believe in Dave Pollard’s repeated talk about the intersection of three aspects – what we love doing, what we are good at doing, our calling/purpose in life. I am not sure I’ve understood your query on the relationship between success and the goals we set. Isn’t success what we think it is? How can it be only related to the goal we set? How can the goal determine we are successful or not? Isn’t it you who determines whether you are successful or not? Let me explain…You may have a goal XYZ. If you think you’re successful only if you achieve XYZ, then you’re letting the goal control your perception of yourself. On the other hand, if you think you’re successful even by setting such a goal and enjoying the journey and experience of moving towards it, then that’s it! But continuing on the topic of setting huge goals, why do we have to limit ourselves? Why can’t we dream big and believe we can achieve anything and everything? Are all geniuses and prodigies only born and not made? I don’t think so. The law of attraction says we can achieve just about anything we desire from the bottom of our heart! I think it takes a spiritual person to determine what goals to set….to get away from this maddening world and look within…introspect. Many of us are far away from that state…we are caught in this routine whirlpool and find it hard to take off the black cloth that covers our eyes. Do we believe that making money and leading a good family life is all that is needed? Are we looking at what’s happening around us? Do we see the big picture and what’s happening to the environment we live in? Do we think long term? Unfortunately, it doesn’t look like many of us are thinking these thoughts! We are mostly in a mad rush….setting temporary and materialistic goals for ourselves. But, apparently, the world does not discriminate. It allows us to achieve all our goals provided we want it very badly.
5. Taking the completely opposite direction, spirituality also advocates just being! Like Gregory points out. This school of thought asks us to spend time in just being…stop doing, thinking…try just being. I am not sure I understand the implications as yet. But, ironically, something tells me that it is a great way to arrive at a goal. To stay silent and watch the world…step aside…..and think about what needs to be done as opposed to following the herd.
6. I am fascinated by two other perspectives that this post has generated. Not looking at results because they are “temporary”! Wow. Nice way of putting it! And the other perspective – understanding what the goal is – it is not about winning the war…it is about rooting out evil! That should teach us not to focus on temporary results but keep the ultimate aim in our minds. But can rooting out evil be a goal??? Think about it….it cannot be….! Why? It is actually not something you can achieve at a given point of time and then sit back and relax!! It is a journey! It is something we must work towards every minute of our life…it does not have a destination point. It is a way of life!!! That makes it a value…not a goal!!! So, there is a difference! In our endeavour to lead a life which denies a place for evil, we aim for temporary goals…small steps…throughout our lives….and that is what give us the satisfaction! Eternal satisfaction….for we do it every minute of our life and there can be no situation when we feel bored that we have achieved our goal!!
Whew! I am not sure how to thank you for such a wonderful post and how to thank this community here for such a sincere and brilliant discussion! You folks rock!
[Thanks for the patient reading and I am hoping I find the energy to respond to your second post as well...very soon]
Wow, Nimmy – thanks for your thoughtful summary & additions.
Sukumar, thank you again for holding space for this on-going conversation & the insights & growth being triggered.
Thanks to all – for sharing the journey – and I haven’t even commented on part II yet!
Nimmy,
Thanks for your kind words. That is a brilliant comment. Wow!
1 and 2 – yeah, a few others have said that.
3. yes, the journey matters. a few more people are in that camp.
4. Interesting point. Yes, if one defines success by the meeting/beating the goal, then the goals do determine whether you are successful or not. I don’t see anything wrong with that. In fact, i started this line of thinking based on my observation that the nature of the goal seemed to determine whether we succeed or not. To me, it seemed like if you do decide to have a goal, it may help to understand what sort of goals one should have. People like Gregory have said that you really don’t need goals and you can be who you are and just be. Like you said in 5, i am not sure that level of maturity is common yet. And yes, we can dream big and we should, please take a look at the 2nd post.
5. Agreed.
6. This is brilliant stuff. You are right. Some goals can never be met, the goal posts are shifting all the time – like eliminating evil. Great point. However, one can have such goals. For example, i can have a goal saying i want to be the best in a particular profession. That is always a shifting goal post. I need to think about how to factor this in. Maybe a part 3 is needed
Thanks again for your kind words and a brilliant comment.
Elz,
Thanks. It is a brilliant comment from Nimmy indeed. Thanks for your kind words about our blog.
Hi All,
Thanks All!! Good food for thought..
I believe the essence is in practicing what I call “compartmentalization of mind”.
Here what I mean.
When you set a goal, you always have some factors that are in your control ( to greater extent) and some are beyond control. One sets goals as per her contextual understanding (which determines motivation, honesty to self), aspirations, assessment of self-potential, risk-appetite (ambitious/realistic..hubris), estimation of hurdles etc.
So your goal is an earnest call taken by you.
you move to the next ‘Compartment’..leaving past compartment closed to the extent permissible in given circumstances…in dynamic scenarios sometimes difficult to close past compartment completely..but one should always seek definitions of “start-objective” and “end-state” (positives/negative)…..
Move on with process of achieving your goal…try your best….leverage all resources (i.e. intellect, muscle, political, social, economical, management etc) to achieve it. Immerse into the process of building your success…enjoy it to the hilt. there is immense joy in working towards what we set out to achieve. Leverage your strengths to play best to the unfolding ‘uncertainities’…keep trying despite failures….put your heart & soul to reach to the ‘end-state’
move to the next compartment of enjoying success
if you are able to over-achieve or achieve, feel pride in your success, take lessons. ..move on without hangover
if you are under- achiever, analyse dispassionately what went wrong…take lessons..move on without baggage
Lessons of compartmentalization::
Practice to build air-tight compartments in mind…..
- live in the present…do whatever is in hand to the best of your potential & commitment..enjoy it…
- detach from an event or process as its gets over
- if you are caught up with past mistakes or future worries, you can’t enjoy what is in hand…unless you enjoy it, you can’t excel it…
So the Shloka of the Gita are Guru Mantras for achieving excellence in whatever you do in life…only excellence satiate a mind
As an excercise try this; capture each & every thought that crosses your mind for an hour and count what fraction belongs to the present moment in real sense……the answers will be clear in your mind…Don’t be surprised if your wavering mind turns out to be your biggest roadblock in your success….
So, in conclusion; Gita is about training your mind to earn a peaceful life full of extraordinary success..
Much needed topic Sukumar. Nice link to Gita site. Thanks.
Interesting thoughts Manish. Thanks for visiting and sharing.
Thanks Vinu.
Team,
I am new to this blog. Thanks to Sulumar for thought provoking post and thanks to entire community for great comments.
I am yet to dig into the archives. I got link to this post from another site(Thanks to Nimmy).
As everyone said, I also had the confusions with goals and results. I do strongly believe in this sloga from Gita and it worked out to me very well in the past and present.
In my mind, Goal is something like what we need to accomplish from our view point and results are something which happens on attainment of Goal.
There are some actions which will not contain any goal but might contain results. Say a help we do to others might not contain any goal, but as a result we are expecting some help from the others in future. To me, we should do our action without any attachment to results. As results may be either positive or negative.
As Nimmy pointed out, some are short tem goals and the goals shift. This holds good for actions like meditation, physical workout or Yoga.
Thanks.
Thanks for the kind words Karthik. Yes, we all understand the shloka and try to practice it. But the question is more, how is it connected to success.