The Real History of India Part 10 – The Abominable Caste System – Indian Fact or British Fiction?
The Real History of India Part 10 – The Abominable Caste System – Indian Fact or British Fiction?Prolog:
Last week, we covered one of Islam’s key contributions to India. There is plenty of material out there to undertstand the bad things done by the Islamists, which is why i wrote about some good things they did. Any discussion on India’s history is not complete without considering the caste system. In this post, i want to cover the caste system using 3 different scholarly viewpoints. Thanks to Aditya and one other contributor who wishes to be anonymous, i came across the works of Nicholas Dirks. Thanks to Senthil for introducing me to Dharampal, the brilliant Gandhian Scholar who decided to look directly into the sources of British wisdom about India – the papers published by British officers on various aspects of India. Thanks to Priya Raju, I came across A.N. Sattanathan’s A Sudra’s Story – Sattanathan was the first Backward Classes Commission Chairman of Tamilnadu, who rose up from a disadvantaged background.
What was the caste system like Pre-British?
It is essential for us to understand whether the caste system existed in India before the British and if so, in what form did it exist? Most of the knowledge about India’s caste system came from British historians like James Mills/William Jones. Or from European Historians like Max Mueller and others who were influenced by the British historians themselves as well as made their own contributions to the discussion and influenced British opinion. It is these opinions that have mattered when it comes to gaining an understanding of India’s caste system. From my readings, it appears there is a lot of distortions in the way the caste system has been understood.
Reading the works of the 3 people i mention above, has given me some clarity on the caste system.
Nicholas Dirks
Dirks’ strategy was to focus on a region of Pudukottai, formerly a Princely State that was ruled by kings from the Kallar martial caste (now part of the Mukkulathor community). His choice is brilliant because as he explains in this paper, British tampering is likely to have been minimal. In that paper, he shows how the pre-British caste system functioned as a socio-political-religious-economic structure.
Colin Mackenzie was the Surveyor General of India, another remarkable man, who collected a lot of material on India’s history as his side-project. It is the Mackenzie collection that formed the basis of later British works about Indian history. Dirks shows in another paper how the whole Colin Mackenzie collection used flawed techniques to collect information on India’s society. Dirks also made the startling observation that there was a ridiculously small number of references to caste in the Mackenzie collection.
Based on these and other observations and extensive field work in South India, Nicholas Dirks published what is seen as a landmark publication on the caste system – Castes of Mind, in which he proves that the caste system as seen in India today is completely a British creation (of course, he doesn’t say the caste system didn’t exist before this). Here is an excellent review of this great book, by Champakalakshmi, a noted Indian historian.
Dharampal
Dharampal, on the other hand, decided to rely upon the various reports published by British collectors and officers about the state of India’s education system, technology etc. Given that these reports were produced by the officers in charge of the territories they were reporting on, Dharampal’s data seems quite reliable. Since the caste system atleast in the modern context is closely tied to the education system, i decided to read The Beautiful Tree – containing Dharampal’s description of the pre-British education system.
This book contains a lot of material including reproductions of the reports of the British officers. i found it extremely useful to understand what the British thought about India. In this book, Dharampal, proves that the the Indian education system was extensive, there was a school in every village which taught the Hindu curriculum and there were also higher institutions somewhat like modern day colleges where more advanced subjects were taught etc. He also proves that there was no real discrimination based on caste in the education system.
Sattanathan
It is when i read Sattanathan that i realized that there is a big mistake that many Indologists make by equating the caste system as practiced in Tamilnadu with other states. The key difference from other states lies in the fact that Brahmins formed just 4% of Tamilnadu’s population and that percentage still holds (i think it is now 3%, citation needed). In other states it is between 15-35% (citation needed).
Let us look at some statistics that Sattanathan reports on Page 185:
It is on record that between 1894 and 1904, in the provincial civil services, out of 16 officers 15 were Brahmans, among 21 Assistant Engineers, 17 were Brahmans, out of 140 Deputy Collectors 77 were Brahmans, and out of 128 district munsiffs, 98 were Brahmans. This was inevitable, as, according to E.F.Irschick, who had made a deep study of this subject, during these years, between 67 percent and 71 percent of the graduates of the Madras University came from a single community: Brahman.
further on page 155 he states:
Towards the end of the 19th century, 80 to 90 percent of all jobs available to Indians were occupied by Brahmans, and they were dominating other professions also. It is needless to quote statistics of the number of Government servants, lawyers etc. of this period, as these are often quoted in other reports and publications.
My inferences
I have read a lot of material on the subject and what i have quoted is the choicest parts of the material i have read. i was able to draw these key inferences when i put all the three pictures together:
1. From Dirks’ writings, it does appear that the British made the caste system into what is today and hence the blame must fall on the head of the British. But if you look at Dharampal’s research, we have to conclude that the caste system did have the foundational aspects of the abominable system we see even today. Though, I agree with Dirks and Dharampal, that because of the British, the caste system became more ossified, i am not able to agree that the evil aspects of the caste system was a British creation.
2. Dharampal, on the other hand, has clearly shown that there was not much discrimination based on the caste in the pre-British education system. But the big problem in Dharampal’s work is this – what did people do after they passed out of the education system? His own research shows that the students went back into their own caste’s professions many a times dropping out of the education system completely.
3. Now, when you look at Sattanathan’s data, the picture gets completed. It is what they did after the education that matters and it appears that is where net effects of the discrimination are seen. The British Macaulay system accentuated this further by first focusing on the Brahmins, handing them an almost monopolistic dominance of the jobs.
Epilog:
It is interesting to note that given the dominance of the Brahmin community, Tamilnadu was faced with the unique situation of having to resort to reservations for the majority community (non-brahmins) to level the playing field. I think this is unprecedented in the history of affirmative action anywhere in the world. When i wrote in support of affirmative action a while ago i was not aware of the extent of the caste system in Tamilnadu. Brahmins used to live in segregated areas – agraharams and also had segregated eateries (Brahmanargal sappidum idam or Brahmins only eatery). It is in this sort of a context that we must look at Periyar. There are people who attack Periyar for his atheistic policies and/or his marriage to a young girl. Everyone has flaws and I am sure Periyar did as well. Without Periyar, this unnatural dominance of a rank minority would have continued forever. Periyar’s contribution to the social reformation of India, especially Tamilnadu is unparalleled, making him one of the greatest sons of India.
Next week, i want to cover some aspects of the Indian education system, as seen by Dharampal because it has some valuable clues into the process of Aryanization.
Very good analysis. Particularly the part of relating each other pieces of evidence..
Thanks a lot Ananth. You made our day.
Sukumar, Excellent writeup.
Did British find anything useful to glorify certain castes/ faiths like Parsis, Brahmins and wealthy rajputs and punjabis? They might be instrumental in accepting the superiority or British while acting as their agents in the otherwise hostile populace?
Thanks Vamsi. That is exactly what they did. The Brahmins were selected to be doing all the clerical, teaching (education) and other administrative work. The martial castes – kshatriyas were selected to be part of the military, armed forces, police etc. Using this strategy they brought 2 of the most dominant castes under their control and used that to control the rest of the population. The rest of the castes were already under the thumb of these 2 castes. What i say above maybe an oversimplification of the strategy. They may have also admitted other castes into these professions. But i think this was the essence of the British social control.
Hope that helps.
Sukumar,
Thanks for referring me. I would like to recall our discussion from archana’s caste system, and this post. I hope, you would have understood, that many of your opinions on caste system that you had commented in archana’s blog, is wrong, if we take the sources, mentioned in this post.
This is just another points where i would like to stress, how our country and society is either wrongly understood or wrongly projected abroad.
We need to relook in to everything, from our own perspective.
Secondly, i have referred the article of infinity foundation in the last post, which analyses the circumstances, and the reasons, why castes became rigid with strong identity.
http://www.infinityfoundation.com/mandala/h_es/h_es_hobso_caste_frameset.htm
The above article says, the caste system was dynamic with upward and downward mobility depending on the kingdom. Also, there was not much caste identity, and negligible caste conflicts, as every caste had a means of living and public space.
Its when britishers created an identity for each caste through their classification, the castes system become rigid and started acquiring the european class system. Because, when britishers started classifying castes, people started declaring themselves as upper castes, so that they could get governmental jobs. This further widened the gap, and thus the new european class called Upper caste and Lower caste formed.
Ultimately played double game, and further degraded the society.
Sukumar,
Thanks for referring me. I would like to recall our discussion from archana’s caste system, and this post. I hope, you would have understood, that many of your opinions on caste system that you had commented in archana’s blog, is wrong, if we take the sources, mentioned in this post.
This is just another points where i would like to stress, how our country and society is either wrongly understood or wrongly projected abroad.
We need to relook in to everything, from our own perspective.
Secondly, i have referred the article of infinity foundation in the last post, which analyses the circumstances, and the reasons, why castes became rigid with strong identity.
http://www.infinityfoundation.com/mandala/h_es/h_es_hobso_caste_frameset.htm
The above article says, the caste system was dynamic with upward and downward mobility depending on the kingdom. Also, there was not much caste identity, and negligible caste conflicts, as every caste had a means of living and public space.
Its when britishers created an identity for each caste through their classification, the castes system become rigid and started acquiring the european class system. Because, when britishers started classifying castes, people started declaring themselves as upper castes, so that they could get governmental jobs. This further widened the gap, and thus the new european class called Upper caste and Lower caste formed.
Ultimately Britishers played double game, and further degraded the society.
The root cause of why the caste system were villified and negatively portrayed is given in the book review of noted historian chenbagavalli .
” In early colonial historiography (19th Century) the most influential views on caste were those of the Missionary, who denounced caste as the most serious impediment to the spread of the Gospel”
As far as my understanding, this is one of the key factors, that victimised the entire indian society. And till today, the same victimisation is happening by the Missionaries, by controlling much of the English medias, either by majority stakes or by influential stakes in the shares.
[Hope, i would not be again accused as showing hatred, and in turn my arguments be noted]
…….
……
” In the process of defining rituals as either sanctioned by Brahmanical religion or as folk/ popular, Hinduism itself was redefined and a rigid separation between the high classical and the low popular religion made, producing the model of the Great and Little traditions.”
…..’A relationship between martiality and criminality was established and those martial tribes who were disloyal to British rule were denominated as criminal castes (Kallar, Maravar and Bhils),”
[ In tamil, there was a term "Kuttra parambarai".. literally translated to "Criminal Heredetary".. The kallars were branded as criminals, and the entire males of that community is locked up in the police.. Pasumpon Devar, fought against that injustice]
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My thoughts on high & low caste:
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The britishers racism has contributed to the appearance of racist tendencies in indian castes.. When they came, they looked down upon the entire indian society.. and during their classification, the brahmins, and other influential castes declared themselves as superior, to get recognition from the britishers.. This is attributed to the fear of rejection, and further discrimination by the britishers, if they were classified as lower caste..
Later, these castes acquired some level of racial tendency and in turn looked down upon the castes which did not get listed on top..
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Some Drastic changes :
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Because of the british dominance, the characteristic of specific section of the people completely changed.
-> The devadasi people, were reduced to prostitution, due to lack of patronage.
-> Opposing Warrior class reduced to Criminals.
-> Brahmins, isolated from the rest of the society.. Earlier, they remained as part of the society, offering guidance.
-> Brahmins leading simplistic life, lured to luxurious government jobs.. equivalent of european nobles.
-> The most affected are the shudras, who was further reduced to utter poverty.
-> The agricultural population was manipulated, and forced to cultivate opium, cotton and sugarcane, rather than food crops, thus collapsing food chain.
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When so much of damages were done by the britishers, i could see even a bit of condemnation in your posts..
Senthil…again you stroked the wrong note. Sukumar did condemn the British. They manipulated the existing divisions and might have altered them. But if you say pre-British situation was rosy. That looks like incorrect.
Do you have any proof that says upward movement was allowed (between castes?). Pre-British India should be allowing Sudras to become priests.
Is that what you mean?
I think we should rethink everything from truth perspective. That is what is happening on this blog. Do you agree?
Sukumar
Nice post and analysis. Who ever wants to rule us using our caste system to separate us and exploiting it to achieve their goals. Even now our political parties using caste to get votes. So nothing surprise that british also used that as a tool to divide and conquer. I don’t think British altered caste system rather they used it for their purpose.
Subba
Thanks Vamsi and Subba. I am glad you are looking at it differently. Pre-British caste system was evil to begin with. The British used it to their advantage as Subba puts it. That is the truth. Next week i will show with evidence from Dharampal that that was the case. Stay tuned.
Senthil,
I have the same position that i had when i commented in Archana’s posts. The only difference is now i know how the British leveraged it. If you do want a true understanding of what happened, read Dirks’ book. The whole right wing spends all their time and energy bashing the minorities and the British. I did condemn the British but this post is about the caste system nopt about what the British did. The caste system was evil to begin with as practiced from the rig vedic days. No point in blaming the British.
Though I haven’t read much about Dharampal or his works, it looks like he has used his own unique ways to come up with some excellent surmises and conjectures on the pre-British India using the official data available from that time period.
However, I’d like the friends of this blog to read the following interesting piece on Dharampal by Ramachandra Guha. To me, Guha is one of those centralist historians of India, though he has a big soft corner for Nehru and has a wee bit of dislike against the right-wing Parivar group. Plus, Guha does his research thoroughly on politics and ecology (Arundhati Roy might not agree with this), though his research on cricket could be questioned on a few occasions.
http://www.telegraphindia.com/1041226/asp/opinion/story_4161434.asp
Has Dharampal’s views changed after his allegiance towards the Right-wing groups? Have they rewritten some of his books in the last decade or so, in sync with the inception of Vedic Mathematics and the other relevant inventions? I hope his books aren’t tampered with, as they seem to be in accordance with the official data. I hope he hasn’t gone the Arun Shourie way, in his literary efforts.
Vijay,
Thanks for the insight. With all due respect i disagree with Dharampal’s conclusions. I will be writing my conclusions based on dharampal’s data next week.
Vamsi,
I have stroked the correct note.. In the later comments, sukumar himself acknowledged “There is no points in blaming britishers”.. this what i consider as a bias towards our history..
Regarding your question on caste, i am surprised, even a bit of positive about our society brings so much allergic reactions…
I have already quoted the link on infinity foundation, which speaks about upward and downward mobility. Also, the links given by sukumar in this post, clearly says, The present day caste system was a creation of britishers.. In pre-british, there was no political identity or social rigidness of caste as we have now.. The castes were on communal and religious lines.
[[The word Communal is not a negative word as our english media and marxist historians projected.. ]]
Upward Mobility:
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The upward mobility of the castes had happened both politically and spiritually.. Chatrapathi, Shivaji was a Shudra king, who ascended the throne at his young age.
The great vijayanagara empire, one of the richest of its times, was founded by bukka rao, who was a small chieftain..
If you happened to go to many of the amman temples, and rural temples, the priests were among the rural community itself.
Today, we could see many of the brown/black priests who wear sacred thread, offering prayers.. they seem to be given deeksha by the saints of the bhakthi movement.. the priest in the badrakaliamman temple near my house is a non-brahmin, but wears a poonool..
Downward Mobility:
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The downward mobility happened much with the warrior class.. many of SC & MBC communities were rajputs, jats.. These castes had been reduced to that level, during muslim invasion, where the captured warriors were put down to soil cleaning, and treated as slaves..
[[ i am pointing just facts.. if you find it hateful, i am not responsible ]]
In tamilnadu, the kallars, maravars were MBC but formerly kshatriyas. Similarly the vanniars.. these castes lost their status during british period..
The most degraded and affected community is the “Devadasi” community.. Although the degradation started during mughal period, the entire community got affected when britishers took over their endowments given by the previous native kings.. A wealthy community, more or less egalatarian, religious, and who had the freedom to choose the partner without coercion, had been reduced to prostitution by the britishers..
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I can cite more such incidences.. But, its a question, if you would accept it or not.. Atleast, if you could consider what i am saying, then my effort in replying would be fruitful..
Some remnant information of devadasi system:
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In my community, the marriage is conducted in a non-brahminic way.. the barber used to sing mangala vazhthu in our marriage. The mangala vaazthu is in tamil, and written by kambar..
When i heard that song few months before, i was surprised to know that inviting a devadasi to the marriage is an important ritual followed on those days.. the line starts like “Nalla devadasi …”
One of my friend now doing Phd on tamil culture gave me this information..
In tamil, there is a most abusive word (for women) called “th*****” .. the original word for this is “Deva Adiyal”, which he told, had references in our tamil literature itself.. Deva Adiyal literaly translates to “servant to God” . the tamil word for “devadasi” ..
Although, i could not remember the exact references in tamil literature he made, i just wanted to point to this information here..
Subba..
Yours is a self-inflicting & self-degarding argument..
So, whenever, some one beats us, we should simply console ourselves, he will do like that.
whenever some one steal us, we should console ourselves, a thief will only steal..
I would say, your argument is a result of gandhian disease
The britishers collapsed our society, and handed over the power to the weak leaders.. even in congress, when everyone wished patel for PM, gandhi vetoed it to Nehru, who is the master of all problems that india faces today, both kashmir, tibet, arunachal pradesh etc.
If we had won our freedom, we could have corrected ourselves, and become a developed nation by this time.. but, we got independance as an alms, that too to weak leaders, who know only stage speech and issuing statements.. the legacy continues till now..
Vijay,
In india, whenever any one speaks something great about india, they are branded as right wing argument. its a psychological war, where when a person has been character assasinated, whatever he tells loses its value..
Dont the right wing have the right to have their views? They are the citizens of india, and nationalists, who wants to speak positive about our culture, and nation..
Ramchandra guha was partly a communist and a congress supporter.. More than that, he is being used a political tool..
When RSS released a book “Bunch of thoughts”, he immediately wrote an article “Guru of hate” targetting RSS..
Such is his hatred that when anyone has relationship with RSS, they are branded as communal, and their integrity is collapsed..
In the article, you have quoted, his accusation was that Dharampal opposed “Sonia Gandhi” a white italian lady to become PM. infact, no dignified country would have allowed this to happen..
He also denounces A B Bardhan, for speaking about culture..
Such is the vilification campaign, that any one even speaks of anything indigineous..
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In this case, even if dharampal sides with BJP or sangh parivar, that doesnt matter.. as the point of reference is his collection of British archivals related to india.
Sukumar,
I read the dirks paper on mackenzie.. he had clearly said “The pre-British caste system was drastically redefined to suit the european model, by the britishers.. He also cites, the brahmins, who mostly interacted with british historians, had given wrong information either out of ignorance, or to please their masters by presenting the fact in a way they expected or understood..
So, again my earlier stance was further strengthened.. Caste was made evil by the britishers..
/** The caste system was evil to begin with as practiced from the rig vedic days **//
I am in complete opposition to your above statement. Pre-British caste was one of the strenghts of Indic civilization (as again quoted in dirks paper).. Its one of the reason, why our civilization was continuously reproduced and regenerated even after continuous destruction by the muslim invaders..
The most important aspect of caste system is that it respected all other faiths, doesnt infringe on other faiths, and till today, it was one of the hall mark of inclusive tendency.. ie, it respects gods of other people.. considering the numerous crusades and jihad, this aspect of inclusiveness is a strenght which leads to peaceful co-existence.
If you still want to prove it as evil, i would request you to explain what constitutes an evil..
Senthil
. Since this series started you are again and again in same hardcore view of our social system. Our caste system is 3000 years old and its creation was evil minded and cleverly planned to get more benefit for one group of people. None of the human history ever created this kind of sustainable segregation in this world. Who ever tried to do so was punished very harsh, of course after lot of life loss (example Nazi, KKK).
Thanks for the compliment, because “gandhian disease” is a good trait to have and everybody should have it, then this world would become better place to live
British just used it for their purpose, they didn’t create any new castes within our system or changed one caste to do one specific job. In fact, because of british we came to know all the drawbacks of our caste system. See Sattanathan’s finding from this post. You can argue so many ways but you can’t rewrite history.
Since you quote on me directly here, I’m replying thru this blog.
Subba
Senthil,
Right-wing people have right to have views. But they cannot push their views as truths. There is a difference. Manifestation of views into truths is what is the serious problem with right wing folks. It will be to such an extent that they
1) Bring in hatred of ALL muslims when the discussion is about “contribution of Islam to cuisine”
2) Insist that British are to be made sole responsible for castes.
3) Glorify caste system
4) Quote few kings (they are great kings) and show that there is upward progress for *all* castes during pre-british ages (isn’t it called Trophy Progress by Sukumar).
5) Show few failures of Congress/Nehru and say that it is a bad party. (not the current form). Reject grossly ALL contributions of independence struggle.
6) Hate MK Gandhi
7) Burn KFC, Staines, etc ( But on the first opportune movement sign WTO agreements, sign arms deals with US, open up second generation economic reforms and claim India Shining.)
What makes right wing is everything that is not left and center. That center is where most of the Indian public are. Bringing them to the right is the sole goal of right wing groups. What is the point Senthil..You are indoctrinated and if that gives you enough high. Praise Indian cultural racism and say that is the strength of India. And no body will disturb you.
Senthil wrote:
******
In india, whenever any one speaks something great about india, they are branded as right wing argument. its a psychological war, where when a person has been character assasinated, whatever he tells loses its value.
*****
Vijay’s response:
Senthil, Perhaps it’s true to some extent. However, I’d like to disagree with your sweeping generalization that anything great about India ends up being tagged as a right-wing argument. Most of us, if not all of us, are proud of the lives, achievements and contributions of the historical figures like Buddha, Chandragupta Maurya, Kalidasa, Aryabhata, Kabir, Ashoka, Akbar, Shivaji, Swami Vivekananda, Aurobindo Ghose, Rabindranath Tagore, Allama Muhammad Iqbal, Mahatma Gandhi, Dhyan Chand, Homi Bhaha, Sathish Dhawan, Mother Teresa, Sachin Tendulkar and many other great Indians. Who could dare to call us right wing or whatever, based on the eulogies that we invariably end up bestowing on these venerable Indians? Sometimes, I think some of us need to get rid of this, “Oh, they brand us as so-and-so”, “We’re all victimized for no fault of ours”, “They’re all ganged-up against us to conspire” and so forth mindsets and learn not to play the proverbial victim card, at the drop of a hat.
Senthil wrote:
******
Dont the right wing have the right to have their views? They are the citizens of india, and nationalists, who wants to speak positive about our culture, and nation..
******
Vijay’s response:
No one in the right sense would deny anyone, leave alone the right-wing group, the rights to express their views in the most democratic form. They could talk all the positive things about our culture, but that has to be in alignment with truth – historically proven truth – and can’t be a figment of their wild and gory imaginations. As long as they’re not manufacturing reality, I’m all for their positive outlook.
Senthil wrote:
*****
Ramchandra guha was partly a communist and a congress supporter.. More than that, he is being used a political tool..
******
Vijay’s response:
Senthil, After saying this, now you’re saying this….
*****In this case, even if dharampal sides with BJP or sangh parivar, that doesnt matter.. as the point of reference is his collection of British archivals related to india.****
Let’s have one set of standards for all and sundry, shall we? So, in your view, Ramachandra Guha being a Congress supporter makes his views less credible, whilst Dharampal’s flirting with Sangh Parivar shouldn’t take any gloss away from his findings, how nice? As I’ve written in my short introduction about Guha, he has got a soft corner towards Nehru and has got a bit of dislike towards the Parivar. But that doesn’t mean his views need to be dismissed in its entirety. I haven’t dismissed Dharampal’s views based on his fling with BJP, have I? I’ve merely asked questions about the possibility of his books being rewritten, since I haven’t read any of his books. I’m eagerly awaiting Sukumar’s inferences from Dharampal’s Data.
At the end of the day, all said and done, let’s not dismiss someone’s views based on his or her allegiance; let’s hear the views out first, and then make an informed choice out it.
Senthil wrote:
*****
Such is the vilification campaign, that any one even speaks of anything indigineous..
******
Vijay’s response:
Have you read any of Ramachandra Guha’s books before labeling this charge of “vilification campaign” against him? Have you read his influential book, “India after Gandhi”? If not, please read it first, and then let us talk about his intentions, shall we? Let me give one example to let you know where I’m exactly coming from: Though I don’t necessarily agree with Vinayak Damodar Savarkar’s general views on India and Hindutva, I’d still like to rate his book, “1857 – The First War of Independence,” highly, as it’s one of the very best books written by anyone on that subject. Similarly, Ramachandra Guha’s views need not be dismissed summarily, without even reading his works.
Sukumar,
I’ll be very eager to read your inferences based on your research on his data.
I agree with Subba. Caste system obviously existed before the British. They exploited it and so are today’s politicians.
It may seem simplistic, and I understand devil is in the implementation – but solution is to make sure that education is available amongst all strata of society (including economically down trodden) and remove nepotism (that propagates the system) . Organizations must be punished severely for doing the latter.
Ganesh
Thanks Ganesh, Vamsi, Subba, Vijay. In my view as well the caste system is as old as the Vedas and it is evil. The british leveraged it well and ruled us.
Senthil,
Yes the caste system is there since the rig vedas and it had evil designs whether intentional or not.
It is interesting that you object to the right wing opinion being branded. It is the right wing that is the progenitor of the branding strategy. Whoever doesn’t agree with the right wing are liberals, marxists, pseudosecualrists, commies etc. When you live in a glass house dont throw stones. It is we the centrists that listen to everyone’s opinion regardless of source and evaluate the true merit of the opinion.
Senthil, please read my post again. I have carefully evaluated dirks, dharampal and many others and reached the inferences i reached. In my view dharampal’s data contradicts dirks’.
Senthil,
I mentioned this before and you conveniently didnt respond. You say Gandhi’s strategy is like begging. Let us say i agree with you for the sake of argument. What were your other great leaders doing for 350 uears that we lived under British domination? The fact is simple. The british got the brahmins and kshatriyas into their control using money and power and used that to control the rest. This is why Bharathiar sang “endru thaniyum in the adimaiyin mogam” (when will this slave mentality die). Why do you think he sang that? It is because our Indian people thanks to the evil Karma theory were plodding along under the british without rebelling. There were a few mutinies and skirmishes but if someone thinks those were sufficient to shake the british, they are reading the wrong history. Senthil, i would urge you to face the truth – the caste system is evil. Let us work towards erasing it from the planet instead of trying to glorify it.
To the point Sukumar. M.K. Gandhi is one of the real brands of India. Surely there is nationalism around. But it is in small pockets. I still rate Gandhi’s South African life and Civil Rights Movement in South Africa as much as much significant achievement as Indian freedom struggle. His Quit India movement, contribution to women empowerment, Civil Disobedience movement speaks volumes about him. He is one of the greatest leaders to be born in modern ages. He is the personification of Hinduism. Took out the essence of Hindu Religion and used it in the practical life. Not plotting bombs and killing people.
Thanks Vamsi. You are right MK Gandhi is a real brand of India. He is one the world’s greatest people across the history of humanity. Only the right wing can smear him happily without regard to the truth.
Subba.. Any disease, that breaks the immunity, is not good for the body.. so as the gandhi, which breaks the resisting power of the people, which drives people to suicide is not good.. It makes people, unable to defend themselves.. I hope, you remember his lunatic statements like “Jews should offer themselves to Nazis”, and “British should offer themselves to Hitler, to practice non-violence”..
Gandhi is more of a british creation, than a leader.. In our country, almost all people had reverence for sainthood, on those days.. He used that position to establish himself, although he was deceitful many times.
Regarding your statement on caste system, i completely reject it.. There is no substantial basis for this.. We can assert from the simple fact, that we dont have any concrete recorded history about our social system.. And you are blaming a system which you dont know how it existed even 300 years before.. let alone 3000 ..
Pls dont repeat what you learnt from school syllabus
Vijay,
I was saying about how Guha, wrote his vehemant views on dharampal.. so, you mean, i should not criticise some one who attacks me?
I specifically came to know about Guha’s biased views on his article on the book “Bunch of Thoughts” released by RSS. That was the time, i was curious to know about RSS.
I went through all 12 volumes of the book, and later his review of the book.. Its a clearcut manipulation, and targetted attack to nuetralise the expectations of the book..
Meanwhile, i agree with you not to reject any one’s views, because of their idelogy.. And i expect the same.. But, here, everything is rejected if its from right wing..
Vamsi,
/** ….M.K. Gandhi is one of the real brands of India. **/
This is exactly what i meant.. He is a pakka brand builder and sidelined all other leaders.. And he is smartly used by the britishers and promoted by them, because his style of protest is easy to manage.. And just like him, the gandhi brand is still now used to fool the people of india, who have ignorant of our polity.
Also, he served in WW-1 under british, and many times before becoming congress president, offered his full support to the britishers..
Pls read this resource on gandhi..
http://india_resource.tripod.com/gandhi.html
Will this link also be rejected as “some right wing” or will the views in it, be rejected as “Some Mistakes of Gandhi”?
Another link on exposing gandhi..
http://sify.com/news/fullstory.php?id=14596866
Sukumar,
I dont agree with caste system as evil.. I had already requested that we need reason on what makes caste system as Evil..
Fortunately or Unfortunately, I am brought up from a traditional village background, and hence i have enough first hand knowledge of caste system (NOT book knowledge) and analysed myself directly on the aspects of caste system and the associated social structure. I dont go by the academic books blindly.
From my direct analysis, i find the following view of historian chenbagavalli is very true, till today.
” In early colonial historiography (19th Century) the most influential views on caste were those of the Missionary, who denounced caste as the most serious impediment to the spread of the Gospel”
This is the single most reason for why Caste is branded as evil today.. And i am sure, you will never accept this.. But, i have practical proofs on it..
The leftist and the congress occupied the media and academic space even before independance, and since they were in power for long time they maintained their dominance in both the space.. its they who first coined terms to brand the nationalists in various negative names..
I just wanted to respond in the previous post on how gandhi is NOT responsible for india’s freedom..
before going further let me list some few facts, which provides the background..
-> it was not 350 years.. The resistance sustained till the first independance war of 1857 which was essentially the peak of all resistance, which shook the entire british control.. then came bala gangadhar tilak, who first proclaimed “swaraj is my birthright”.. and then came bagat singh, chandrazekah azad etc..
-> then came the the most influential & vociferous non-gandhian leader “Netaji Subhash Chandra Bose”.. i will come to his point later..
-> Gandhi did not advocate for independance till 1930′s..
-> Gandhi’s Quit India Movement was started in 1942 and withered very soon in 1943 itself…
-> After WW-II, there was no protest from gandhi or congress for independance.
In this circumstances, what made britishers to give independance.. It was the Nethaji’s INA, which inspired an awakening in Indian Army and Navy, that finally led to the britishers awarding independance. The unrest started during trials of INA soldiers, and this lead to a mutiny in Indian Navy in 1946, in which almost navies from all cities participated..
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Royal_Indian_Navy_Mutiny
Many of the Army officers openly defied their masters.. This collapsed the tight hold of britishers over india.
The britishers sensing that the indian armed forces cannot be trusted any more, finally decided to leave away.. Also, most of the wealth of india was sucked out, and there was nothing remaining at that time.. So the fact that india would become their liability, also made them give independance..
But they had their last say.. independance was given on certain conditions.. first is that INA soldiers would not be allowed to join indian army.. and other secret agreements b/w them and the gandhi.. (a person branded as upholding truth and openness collided with britishers to betray another freedom fighter..)
Updated details available at the wiki pedia link.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_independence_movement
particularly, the following gives doubt over the official history of india..
1. Some important government archives of India from 1937 to 1947 were destroyed in india, but a copy available in britain.. (its supposedly contain sensitive information on gandhi)
2. Still now, the mystery around netaji is pruposely hidden.. All archivals related to him, was not opened for public..
Senthil. I offer no comments on junk links given by some “Arvind Lavakare ” (whose articles in rediff.com speaks volumes about his hardcore views and position). You are right to some extent about left leaning media. But you are not wise enough to see an average Indian citizen whose position is centric – neither left leaning or right leaning.
BTW what is Sindhi Times? A news paper. It wrote an article that India is looted by British. OK. Agreed. It is published before Congress is born. OK agreed. So what? Did Sindhi times/ its intellectuals ever bring the mass movement of people boycotting British schools/ British goods? I never heard of such news. ( and can you please send any official British reference of when such news paper was registered and who is the publisher, Gazette details:-) Let us dig out the truth).
If you say he gave statements like “Jews should offer themselves to Nazis”, and “British should offer themselves to Hitler, to practice non-violence” as incorrect. He also asked India to support British in their war efforts. So, according to the right wing fanatics, if he supports British he must be great right? Or is it whatever he says he is wrong? What he wrote in Harijan are his views. Even Bal Thakarey writes contradicting stuff every day. Views change. That is NOT wrong. Based on what he believed they are 100% correct. What he offered as practical solution and supporting British is political. He is correct there 100%. Again is Subash Chandrabose correct to support Germany and Japan in WW2. According to your theory he must be Evil No. 1. Right?
In your political view article, Gandhi would create Ambulance Corps, (note the name) then offer them to British as commandos? Then they prefer to use them for medical services. what a crap!!! Read it again and you will laugh at it. If not…you need to learn the skill of separating wheat from the chaff.
Creating Ambulance Corps is like fighting against enemy!!! Why? Poor Red Cross must be hating the Humanity. Since they help lot of wounded soldiers and there is a war almost everyday in this world!!!
Also, when someone says great about Gandhi, immediately dont need to bring some other names and say they all are great. Yes, you are right. Nehru, Subash, Patel and 1000 others are great. But they ALL accepted Gandhi. Some did not and they left Congress.
Before Gandhi also there are many great leaders who loved their motherland like Tilak, Gokhale etc. But one leader who worked like a bridge between the old and new generation and rallied them is Gandhi. He also made an elite organization into common mans party. It is no small step.
If you think British gave independence because they became weak in WW2, think of how many other countries were British colonies until few decades back.
As usual, you will come with a load of links. I know.. or will you give a break.
No right wing leader is capable enough to do what Gandhi did. Instead of bringing crap links and arguing, please bring some value to the blog. Almost every reader of this blog can understand words and what is the intent of the author. If you think we are all left wing supporters, again you are dead wrong. We do want truth. No personal character assassination of great leaders. It is waste of our time.
Senthil,
I am not sure if you read the article that you quote from South Asian News. Here’s the quote from it
“Although Gandhi became politically active in South Africa, and led ‘Satyagrahas’ against unjust laws, Gandhi was hardly yet an anti-imperialist radical or revolutionary. In fact, in 1914, he was still very much in awe of the British empire, and Martin Green in his biography of Gandhi describes his state of mind as follows: “When Gandhi left South Africa, he still believed in the British empire. though tentatively. “Though Empires have gone and fallen, this empire may perhaps be an exception….it is an empire not founded on material but on spiritual foundations….the British constitution. Tear away those ideals and you tear away my loyalty to the British constitution; keep those ideals and I am ever a bondsman”
If you present this in a court, you’ll hear “Objection, your honor, the witness can’t possibly know what Gandhi’s state of mind was. Moreover, the author of the article is talking about Gandhi’s state of mind from Martin Green’s perspective”. There doesn’t seem to be any fact-check done on the site you are referring to. I can write a blog that talks about Senthil’s state of mind and pass it as truth, but I am sure you’ll question that a lot.
Here’s the editorial review of Martin Green’s book on Gandhi
From Publishers Weekly
Substantial if not always stylish, this intellectual biography places Mahatma Gandhi (1869-1948) in the context of the late 19th-century “New Age,” a burgeoning, if idealistic, period of romantic thinking. Green ( Prophets of a New Age ) proceeds chronologically, detailing events in Gandhi’s life and sketching people and trends that influenced him. In England from 1888 to 1891, Gandhi encountered such early New Age icons as vegetarian Henry Salt; in South Africa in 1894, his activism was spurred by reading Tolstoy’s writings on religion. Green links Gandhi’s philosophy of satyagraha (passive resistance), formulated in South Africa in 1906, to a host of sources, including Thoreau and liberal Judaism. He describes Gandhi as neither martyr nor militant but “tough-minded realist,” and, in contrast to other biographers, describes Gandhi’s “womanliness” as having”more to do with socially constructed gender than sex.” Green sees the myth of Gandhian heroism as rooted not just in orientalism but in the authoritarian British establishment, and suggets that, even if sexual scandal vitiated that myth, Gandhi stands as a “towering horizon figure” for ideas and politics.
Please read the book “age of new revolution” if you’re interested in knowing the truth. If your intention is to smear leaders, you are welcome to read other people’s interpretation of what the book contains.
I am sure you are choosing the latter option.
Senthil
Where is your analysis paper from your village life? I would like to see that. Because so many times you mentioned that you are born and bought up in village hence you know better than others about our social system. One way or other we are all from village background, even though we bought up in city/town, our mom or dad or their parents are from village. So nothing makes you special about brought up in village. I really want to know what you are seeing that we are missing.
I think you are persuading us to lean towards right rather than interesting to finding truth about our social system. This the way whole ideology cult works, they scare others by saying like India going to be Christian nation, all hindus going to convert within next 10 years, tells all negative about great leaders,quoting some biased articles etc. One point of time, most of our youngsters starting towards right(RSS) or left(Communist) but after exposure to other culture, more reading, travel around world, experience, age maturity made them to see all aspects of life and mostly lean towards center. We are already passed on those qualities and now strictly on center and interesting to find truth, analysis more, learn more knowledge as much as possible here.
Subba
Another fantastic post sukumr…
As you said caste system is evil and British exploited the system very will to rule India. I have one doubt.
What was the status of caste system under Islam’s rule? Are they utilized the caste system or try to abolish the system.
Thanks Vamsi. You are right. Senthil seems to be content with drowning us in links created by rightwingers or right wing sympathizers.
Sreedhar, excellent research. In legalese, as you point out correctly, this is what is called “hearsay”.
Subba, thanks i am with you.
Senthil, Subba is right. I was born in a town, and have spent many of my summer vacations in my ancestral village. Being a Brahmin by birth, i have seen the other side of the caste system – rather the ugly side of it.
Let us say we agree with you that caste system is not evil for the sake of argument. How would you term the present day caste system when Dalits are being illtreated and oppressed? Or are these figments of the media imagination? What is your terminology for the obnoxious practices that Brahmins followed and many still do till date? Those are not evil?
You have no evidence to offer for your arguments. Next week, i will provide more evidence on why i think the caste system is evil using Dharampal’s data which you seem to be enamored with?
You keep saying we brand you. Actually, we are not doing that. You are the only one that keeps smearing the great leaders and intellectuals with no basis in data other than some ranting & raving right wing lunatic. I say this again, it is the right wing that revels in branding people but when the right wing is at the receiving end, they start whining. That is just convenient.
For the third time, i ask, what was the strategy of the other leaders that you so much admire for winning independence from the British? I would love to know your data. The only evidence you have shown so far is some random smearing of Gandhiji’s works. While that may show how Gandhiji’s efforts didn’t succeed (which is a crock of bullshit), it still doesn’t prove that the other leaders had a viable strategy? The problem is you can’t produce that data because there is no data to support your claim. The fact is, as i said before, we were under the thumb of the British for nearly 300 years and whatever other strategy that existed didn’t do diddly squat to shake the British. The only man who put fear into the British heart in the truest sense of the term is Gandhiji and he didn’t use violence at all. That is the power of non-violence. If you are unable to accept that, that is fine, but if you want us to believe that there were other viable independence strategies, we would need to see proof of that.
Since you don’t have the data, you don’t answer this question but instead choose to whine about how no one is listening to you. I am sure by now you have realized that this blog’s readers will look at data objectivelty no matter the source. Produce the data, if you truly care about convincing us of your position.
Kumaresan,
I have not done my research about the caste system under the Islamists. There are 2 issues we will have on that topic – the islamists never controlled a large part of the Indian territory (even the British controlled only 60% at the peak of their power), Islamists just continued with the existing monarchical system and did not attempt social engineering like the British. They did force convert lots of Hindus into Islamists and there have been Islamist raiders like Ghazni who took enormous amounts of wealth out of the country. Therefore, my guess is that they left the caste system as is. It is the British, who wanted to exercise social control and they figured out that the caste system was the best way to control India and proceeded to do that.
I will try to find references for the caste system during the Islamist period. If anyone else, knows anything, please let us know.
Senthil,
This comment of yours http://www.sastwingees.org/2008/04/20/the-real-history-of-india-part-10-the-abominable-caste-system-indian-fact-or-british-fiction/#comment-3056
was in the spam folder.
The wikipedia page you quote on Indian Independence Movement, i think quite clearly captures Gandhi’s role and how he catalyzed a fractured community into a unified whole to fight. The khadi movement, swadeshi movement – boycotting foreign goods were very important in the movement. My grandfather wore only khadi for the longest time due to Gandhiji’s influence. To say that Gandhi’s role is limited is a figment of the right wing imagination.
Netaji and others did propose a violent path, but unfortunately, their strategy involved siding with the Nazis and Japanese who were losers of WWII. that strategy while it helped fire up some parts of the Indian youth was not a viable one. It is Gandhi’s civil disobedience and satyagraha that produced results.
I also said in my 350 year comment that there were mutinies and skirmishes, but those didn’t shake the British – the most powerful empire in that period. It is quite simple, we did not have the capability to raise an indigenous army to fight the British using weapons. There were some attempts by leaders (who are to be admired of course) to use violence, but that did not fire up an across the board rise of an indigenous army. Without that, the only viable strategy was non-violence and that is what worked.
The violent struggles thanks to their limited scope did not succeed any producing any meaningful impact on the British. If you think the 1857 mutiny was successful, how come the British didn’t leave for another 100 years almost? Gandhi didn’t arrive in Indian politics yet at that time. So who is there to blame? Again, it is quite simple, the violent movement did not attract the following that was required possibly due to the Adimaiyin Mogam as Bharathiar put it.
Again the data you produced is something everyone knows – 1857 mutiny, Bose’s INA, Vanchinathan (who in a North Indian dominated media doesn’t get any mention) etc were there. But none of that unified the masses like Gandhiji’s did. In other words, the fact that these small-scale violent movements existed is not evidence that these were viable strategies. The fact of the matter is, these didn’t work as much as the leaders of these movements may have liked. It is only Gandhi’s strategy that worked. That is the truth. If you don’t like the truth, produce the data. As Deming said eloquently, “In God We trust, everyone else bring’s data. “
Vamsi,
I will accept your statement, that gandhi acted as a bridge b/w older and newer generation. Infact, in one way, he kept alive the nationalist spirit, in which most of the later freedom fighters got inspired. Even Godse, became a freedom fighter influenced by Gandhi..
But, as you said, we need to separate wheat from chaff.. its up to the individual on how to separate this..
Have we ever asked “Why gandhi was able to establish himself, and why other leaders could not?
The truth is that gandhi won the support of Britishers in his service to their military in WW-1, and later, the britishers felt, he was the least harmful and most manageable of all leaders.. Thus by projecting him, they were able to contain and eclipse other leaders..
Vamsi & Sridhar..
You have said, we should see the truth.. But, what is meant by truth..
The entire meaning of truth differs from the west and east.. In the west, the truth as defined by christianity is referred.. ie, only christ is truth, and all others are false concept.. ofcourse they have the right to believe them..
In other terms, their truth is what they believe. anything confirms to their belief is truth and that does not is false.
But in Indic terms, its not the case.. Truth is dharma. and i hope, being brahmins, you would know more than me ..
But unfortunately, you are referring to the first form of truth here.. ie, anything supporting your belief is truth, and that does not is false..
Its more of a hero – villain concept, where the hero is always right and villain is always wrong.. In our discussion, gandhi can never be wrong, and Godse can never be right..
And the so called centrist english media can never be wrong, and the right wing media can never be right..
I dont subscribe to that view..
In our culture, even the activity of Gods are debated.. Was rama right in killing vaali.. No other religion can allow such a kind of debate.. But, Hinduism has that maturity..
Also, there is no hero villain concept here.. Even Ravana is praised of his high qualities.. Even duryodana is praised of his high qualities.. Even though karna joined the opposite gang, he eclipsed even the pandavas in his noble virtues and his gratitude for his friend duryodana.. (a theme, which influenced the box office hit film “Thalabathi” in tamil)..
But, it seems we have lost that tradition long back .. (including myself)
Sukumar,
I accept that gandhi unified masses by his brillian brand building.. But that should not prevent us in analysing his failures..
As i said before, this was more of wished by the britishers, because, by projecting him, they made other leaders unpopular.. However, i did not deny his influence on the people..
But, the issue here is the distortion of the independance history by the congress persons, by projecting gandhi as the sole reason for independance.. Paritcularly, Netaji was completely eclipsed, the INA soldiers were left to their poverty.. i will come to this point later..
Also, its clearly given in the wikipedia link, that gandhi’s activism of quit india movement, withered in 1943 itself..
Quote from hief justice P.B. Chakrabarty of Calcutta High Court, who had also served as the acting Governor of West Bengal in India:
In the preface of the book Dr. Majumdar has written that he could not accept the thesis that Indian independence was brought about solely, or predominantly by the non-violent civil disobedience movement of Gandhi. When I was the acting Governor, Lord Atlee, who had given us independence by withdrawing the British rule from India, spent two days in the Governor’s palace at Calcutta during his tour of India. At that time I had a prolonged discussion with him regarding the real factors that had led the British to quit India. My direct question to him was that since Gandhi’s “Quit India” movement had tapered off quite some time ago and in 1947 no such new compelling situation had arisen that would necessitate a hasty British departure, why did they have to leave? In his reply Atlee cited several reasons, the principal among them being the erosion of loyalty to the British Crown among the Indian army and navy personnel as a result of the military activities of Netaji. Toward the end of our discussion I asked Atlee what was the extent of Netaji. Toward the end of our discussion I asked Atlee what was the extent of Gandhi’s influence upon the British decision to quit India. Hearing this question, Atlee’s lips became twisted in a sarcastic smile as he slowly chewed out the word, “m-i-n-i-m-a-l!” [46]
Sukuamr,
There are two major incidences, that nearly shook the very foundation of british rule in India.
1. The 1857 war of independance, where the indian army revolted through out india.. Because, it failed, doesnt mean, it did not have any impact.. it failed for various reasons, one is lack of co-ordination, and the other is the strong communication line, that britishers had.. But, it definitely had a everlasting effect, that india was brought under queen, from the control of east india company..
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_Rebellion_of_1857
Your position on this is completely undervaluing the importance of that event.. an act, that was cowardly carried out by the congress, the result of which many of indian citizens did not know the actual history..
2. The Royal Indian Navy Uprising of 1946.. This is another major event that was hidden in indian history.. in this uprising,. the entire navy mutined, and the army at the height of rebellion..
If the congress leaders could have utilised this opportunity, we could have really got the independance of our own, instead of getting it as a beg from them..
Unfortunately, they sided with britishers, and persuaded the mutineers to surrender..
Its wrong to say that there was no resistance for 300 years..
Role of Nethaji in Indian Independance:
————————————————
Nethaji’s vision was to organise the Prisoners of War, and then wage a war with the help of axis powers.
The INA was already formed by mohan sing deb, in 1942 with the help of japan.. later, bose with the help of germany went to japan, and organised the INA which was facing some problems, and then in 1943, he took over the leadership of INA.
His aim was by leading the indian POWs to attack the british forward post, he could induce the british indian army of nationalism (through his forward bloc inside india), and thus, there would be attacks both inside and outside. It was a fantastic strategic plan that he envisioned for indian independance. But, the britishers, quickly suppressed the forward bloc, and sensored all news related to bose inside india,.
The famous slogan “Jai hind” and “Chalo India” was still an inspiration for both the army and the indian youths..
Unfortunately, due to the circumstances of the war, he could not succeed in his plans.. But he achieved a partial success in awakening the nationalism inside the indian army..
The trials of INA soldiers in Red Fort, was one of the major event, that created disturbances among Indian army, whose officers openly violated their british seniors.
Also, the mutiny in indian navy, turned to indian nationalism, which shook the confidence of British in holding india..
This is one of the important reasons, of indian independance, for which the major credit should go to Nethaji..
But what happened..
Nethaji was completely betrayed by the congress leaders.. The major conditions of britishers was “NOT to allow INA into the army” . it was proved now, that Nethaji did not die in the plane crash, rather escaped to russia, to continue his struggle.. Its believed that Gandhi and Nehru knew of this, and helped britishers to silently deport him to siberian jail..
Some of the conspiracies of the congress:
1. The official records of historic events b/w 1945-46 was destroyed, by the post independance government.. (ie the nehru government).
2. The archivals related to Nethaji, was destroyed in 1970, and remaining information was still not revelaed.
3. the embodiments of truth, who can hide the important part of our freedom history, will be treated worser than the cowards.. there is no greater injustice than to hide the history from its own people..
This is one of the major reason, why i went against gandhi and nehru.. A leader who is coward towards his own people, cease to be a leader any more.. it also doesnt reflect the brand value (:) built on them.. A person who is projected as embodiment of truth & non-violence has involved in this greatest betrayal of fellow freedom fighters.. (gandhi betrayed Bagat singh too)..
Clearly they did not fight for the britishers.. they did politics with britishers, and remained as a weak opposition..
The youngsters of today are very well aware of this fact.. the era of gandhian coward history is gone..
The suffering of INA soldier due to government neglect..
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/articleshow/573621300.cms
Senthil,
When you don’t have data, you are back to twisting my arguments. when i said for 350 years we didn’t do anything, don’t take that literally. I did say even in my comment that 1857 etc happened but did not have much impact. Let me say this again, the 1857 mutiny, the INA, Bhagat Singh, vanchinathan etc are laudable noble initiatives. But then they didn’t have the pan Indian influence they needed to succeed. No body here is saying Gandhi did everything right. We are merely saying that his is the only strategy that worked. All other strategies while they did have impact did not have the impact needed to remove the British.
Instead of spending your time looking for right winger links to smear Gandhi, here is the data we need you to produce:
1. Prove that INA had a pan Indian influence with data (not nationalistic imagination from the right wing.) The presence of slogans generated by Bose while laudable are not a measure of Pan Indian influence. The only data that will work is – you prove that every region in the country had a massive INA battalion ready to fight the British with weapons.
2. Prove that the 1857 mutiny or any other violent struggle had Pan Indian influence with data (not nationalistic imagination from the right wing).
If you have this data, you can engage this blog’s readers in a meaningful conversation. It is unlikely that you can produce this data but we are willing to listen if you can produce it.
Senthil,
I hate denigrating our Independence Leaders like Bose and others. I believe that everyone of those initiatives had an impact. But it is Gandhi’s pan Indian mobilization and influence that sealed the British fate.
But because of your insistence that the INA had deep impact, i am posting this link –
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_National_Army#Impact
the first 2 lines for your benefit:
“The INA’s impact on the war and on British India after the war has been analysed in detail. The INA’s role in military terms is considered to be relatively insignificant, given its small numerical strength, lack of heavy weapons (it utilised captured British and Dutch arms initially), relative dependence on Japanese logistics and planning as well as its lack of independent planning.”
Sukumar,
Let me not prolong this gandhi debate, as this post is about caste system. My points in short..
-> i gave the wikipedia links, for Royal India mutiny and 1857 Uprising. Hope, its not right wing media.
-> Could you please disprove the following quote on Justice P.C Chakrabarty’s comment on R C Majumdar’s book.
Toward the end of our discussion I asked Atlee what was the extent of Gandhi’s influence upon the British decision to quit India. Hearing this question, Atlee’s lips became twisted in a sarcastic smile as he slowly chewed out the word, “m-i-n-i-m-a-l!”
If you could disprove the above point, then i would accept your point. I am stressing this, because, the statement on Gandhi came from the very person (Atlee) who gave india independance.
-> I didnt say INA was matching british militarily. But, as per the wikipedia link, INA aroused nationalism in British India’s army & Navy, which eroded the confidence of british over indian army.
Hope, you would agree to the above point.
-> The wikipedia link on 1857 & RIN uprising mentions the cities where mutinees took place. I feel, this is a valid reference.
———————————————–
Btw, i accept gandhi had all india following, but, i am against this distorted history that gandhi’s quit india movement got us independance..
Vijay,
Thanks for reminding me savarkar’s book on first war of indian independance.. It gave a continuity of events that i had read from other sources..
Senthil,
Not sure you and i are reading the same wikipedia links. Here is the snippet from the 1857 link you provided above:
“The Indian Rebellion of 1857 began as a mutiny of sepoys of British East India Company’s army on the 10th of May 1857, in the town of Meerut, and soon erupted into other mutinies and civilian rebellions largely in the upper Gangetic plain and central India, with the major hostilities confined to the region of present-day Uttar Pradesh, Uttarakhand, northern Madhya Pradesh or Saugor and Nerbudda Territories, Delhi, and Gurgaon.[2] The rebellion posed a considerable threat to British power in that region,[3] and it was contained only with the fall of Gwalior on 20 June 1858.[2] The rebellion is also known as India’s First War of Independence, the Great Rebellion, the Indian Mutiny, the Revolt of 1857, and the Sepoy Mutiny.
The rebels quickly captured large swaths of the Northwest Provinces and Oudh, including Delhi, where they installed the Mughal ruler, Bahadur Shah Zafar, as Emperor of Hindustan. The British response came rapidly as well: by September 1857, with help from fresh British reinforcements, Delhi had been retaken.[2] However, it then took the better part of 1858 for the rebellion to be completely suppressed in Oudh.[2]
Other regions of British India—Bengal province, the Bombay Presidency, and the Madras Presidency—remained largly calm.[2] In Punjab, only recently annexed by the East India Company, the Sikh princes collaborated with the British to provide both soldiers and support.[2] The large princely states, Hyderabad, Mysore, Travancore, and Kashmir, as well as the smaller ones of Rajputana, by not joining the rebellion, served, in the Governor-General Lord Canning’s words, as “breakwaters in a storm” for the British.[4]”
Please tell me how you are concluding from the above, that 1857 had panIndian influence?
I think we said already that what Atlee said is hearsay evidence. It is not admissible. It is a statement in RC Majumdar’s book about what a judge said about what Atlee told him! This can’t be called evidence.
INA aroused Nationalism in British Indian Army – this is pure speculation. Did anyone do a study on the British Indian Army’s state of mind? Please show us the data. I am sure it did have some effect, but Gandhi with his pan Indian influence and civil disobedience had a greater impact on the Indians. This is the truth.
Now that we have proved to you that INA had limited influence and you have agreed, please quit this argument about Gandhi. Gandhiji is the only reason we got independence. All other reasons are simply contributory factors. This is the truth however unpalatable it may be to you.
Sukumar,
We are reading the same link.. but our focus is opposite.. I am quoting two important ones from the same link..
“Still, the rebellion proved to be an important watershed in Indian history;[7] it led to the dissolution of the East India Company in 1858, and forced the British to reorganize the army, the financial system, and the administration in India.[8] India was thereafter governed directly from London—by the British government India Office and a cabinet level Secretary of State for India—in the new British Raj, a system of governance that lasted until 1947.[4].”
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…………….
“In summary:
1. If the criterion of a National War of Independence is “a war (or numerous conflicts) spread all over the nation cutting across regional lines”, the rebellion does not qualify.
2. If the criterion for a National War of Independence is “a war, which even if geographically confined to certain regions, is waged with the intention of driving out from the complete national area a power perceived to be foreign”, the rebellion does qualify.
”
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It depends on our perception, and on what we are looking from the same link…
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On the reasons for Independence, the descriptions of Bombay Mutiny gives the clue..
“In the after-effect of the mutiny, a Weekly intelligence summary issued on 25 March 1946 admitted that the Indian army, navy and air force units were no longer trust worthy, and, for the army, “only day to day estimates of steadiness could be made”. [10]. It came to the situation where, if wide-scale public unrest took shape, the armed forces could not be relied upon to support counter-insurgency operations as they had been during the “Quit India” movement of 1942. [11] The mutiny has been thus been deemed “Point of No Return
Also, the USA’s historic hostillity towards Imperialism certainly made it unlikely that Atlee’s government would have sought solution by force. The involvement of the Communist Party also cast a very red tinge to this ultimately mass movement that, if confronted, had the potential to have been the flashpoint for the post-war powers, as was seen in Vietnam.”
The above is also from wikipedia..
On how INA inspired the sailors, the same link quotes as follows.
“The INA trials, the stories of Netaji Subhas Chandra Bose, as well as the stories of INA’s fight during the Siege of Imphal and in Burma were seeping into the glaring public-eye at the time. These, received through the wireless sets and the media, fed discontent and ultimately inspired the sailors to strike”
…..
“Ratings left their posts and went around Bombay in lorries, holding aloft flags containing the picture of Subhash Chandra Bose.”
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Regarding the hearsay of justice P.B chakrobarty, he was later the governor of westbengal. Its up to us, to believe him or not..
Gandhi had a major role in keeping alive the spirit of Nationalism,.. however the key factor for independance was not him.. But the indain navy’s mutiny inspired by INA..
I am quitting this gandhi debate.. But, the truth will prevail.. This is one of the strongest point in my side, to prove, how Nehru had concealed the indian history.. (by suppressing & destroying netaji’s details)
Thanks for allowing me in this discussion..
From what I read, British Indian Army is a very loyal disciplined army. So much that even after 50 years of independence, we do not have
Atlee cannot say that he gave Independence because he was scared of scared. Even today Pakistan leaders will not say that they lost Bangladesh because Indira’s statesmanship. ( I wonder what would be right-wingers opinion on Indira and Congress of 1965 to 1975. It broke the sworn enemy of India into two countries. May be they will worship her or play it down that RSS is Muktibahni !!)
Gandhiji is not a sole reason for Indian independence. IMO, he would never say that to himself. He is a greater influence in aligning Indian public. He synced the chord with almost every Indian. For the sake of argument, let us say we want to assign some credit to who really brought Indian Independence struggle from a centric point of view….
Congress – 40%
Muslim League etc – 30%
Hindutva Parties – 10%
Communist parties – 10%
All revolutionaries and poets like Aurobindo( though British never cared..let us agree that revolutionaries infused youth with passion for Independence) – 10%
Even if you adjust whatever you want, pre-independent India has a significant Muslim population. Until two-nation theory is perfected by Iqbal and accepted by Jinnah, Muslim league played a significant role. (in democracy they would be in opposition forever if their vote bank is held), WILL any right-wing truth seeker or truth accepter, give 30% credit to Muslim League for their efforts. I really doubt that).
If we want to assess the influence of Gandhi, just remove him from the equation and see how different event would have been. I am not Nostradamus. But I see different history the one where every faction in Congress and Muslim League (yes our muslim brothers had to bring their unifying force from Britain – Jinnah to counter Gandhi), would have made it easy for British to manage India even after WW2. If they could do it in Afrika can they not do in India. Afrika is more tribal and as diverse as Indian subcontinent.
What you wrote about Truth is somewhat confusing. If you say there are multiple forms of Truth and higher truth or lowel level truth..
I can also say Rama was a king and Ravana was another king. Rama won a war and Valmiki created a great epic glorifying Rama. People started worshiping him. If you want to know how it is in the west…it is exactly like in India. Nobody here accepts Christ as truth 100%. West is more diverse that you like to think. The number of denominations in Christianity I see around in USA makes me wonder people will form religions, sub-religions etc in spite of unifying faiths). It is not the fact that there is one God. But how it is delivered and to be practiced is debated everyday. Here also there are hawks, religious fanatics, swamijis (they call them preachers here and they control billions of $s, own jets, TV stations etc), liberals, centrists etc.
Unlike our Indian nationalist hawks like to project, the world is more diverse than just two religions of west trying to screw Hindus and Jews.
Vamsi,
you said, britishers never cared revolutionaries.. But please refer how they banned the book “First war of Indian independance” even before it was released..
I had lot other things to quote.. but i had quit this gandhi debate and do not want to prolong it,
In related to the caste system, i came across a very inspiring and encouraging works happening in village upliftment.. A dalit person named “Elango” had changed the entire village of Kuthambakkam..
And his major supporters are Brahmins Abroad.. The brahmins in US called him, and collected around 40,000 dollars for him..
http://goodnewsindia.com/index.php/Magazine/story/elango-kuthambakkam
The village kuthambakkam is in Thiruvallur district.. This village can be one of the role model for our CSR activities..
Another article on kuthambakkam.. with photos
http://akash-ganga-rwh.com/village/TripReportKuthambakkam.html
Summoned by my wife to help with dishes..so left these incomplete in my earlier post.
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From what I read, British Indian Army is a very loyal disciplined army. So much that even after 50 years of independence, we follow many traditions, club culture etc in armed forces.
Senthil, I leave this topic aside on Gandhi as you suggested. That would be a sensible call. I also encourage you with your intellect, start reading all views and form your positions.
Thank you for sharing the article on Kuthambakkam. Amazing story of inspiration. I never heard of JC Kumarappa. His theory of economics is what Gandhi used to support. But his dreamer disciple Nehru had other thoughts.
One more dreamer N Chanrababu Naidu also did something similar. With the top down apporach, he drove a program called Janama Bhoomi. Conceptually and operationally, it was a huge success for few years. He also started something called Raithubazaar, which are run even now. From anywhere in the state, farmers can come to these bazaars and sell their produce effectively eliminating middleman syndicates. Totally brilliant. It is sad to see him lose power and becoming another short-cuts politician trying to promote electoral sops to come back to power. He sowed the seeds of which our current CM is enjoying the fruits.
Thanks Vamsi. i agree with your analysis.
Senthil,
I think you want to quit the Gandhi debate, which you happened to start, because you have no more data. Even the elaborate quote you gave again from the wikipedia says “In summary:
1. If the criterion of a National War of Independence is “a war (or numerous conflicts) spread all over the nation cutting across regional lines”, the rebellion does not qualify.”
This was not a national war at all. 4 major British Presidencies (which covered most of the country) were out of it and the Punjab was colluding with the British. Let all that not bother you. Let us just look at the results. The British didn’t leave for another 100 years. If the mutiny was effective, why would they hang around for 100 years?
2. INA had limited influence only. It comes loud and clear in every neutral publication about it. the fact that it led to a major naval mutiny which forced the British is the product of a fertile right wing imagination which likes to glorify violence. The fact that Nehru suppressed some evidence about INA is another right wing imagination with no basis in data. In any case, you are claiming that data has been suppressed, but somehow you know that the data will prove that INA was more effective than it actually was? How come you know that when the evidence has been suppressed?
In sum, you have no data to prove your case. You can quit the argument, if you accept that you have no more data and hence you are quitting the debate.
Thanks for sharing the kuthambakkam story of Elango. It is Very inspiring. However, I don’t see how it is connected to how the caste system was pre-British? Unless you have found a connection that i have missed?
Vamsi,
It was not only gandhian economy. Infact, our traditional economy. (i would again refer to Dharmapal books)..
The naidu’s project was implemented in tamil nadu as “Uzhavar sandhai”.. ie farmer’s market.. My father also sold Spinach for few days in it, and it was received well by the people..
However, the main issue here is that the farmers find it additional burden to market their products, apart from heavy work in the fields..
My mother’s sister, would start at 4 PM, come to the market, sell vegetables & other things, and leave at 10 AM.. then has to work in the field, in the evening package the produce, for the next day sale.. Its really a very hard work for her..
I agree Senthil. It is our traditional economy model. Industrial revolution kind of made the dynamics different. Countries which were free then could make great strides in industry and become industrial. Countries like India unfortunately were colonies then and it really made a big difference I believe. It made world flatter than earlier.
It needs great courage, leaderdhip and will power of the whole community to sustain such model (like in the case of Kuthambakkam) to manage it. (like Amish communities http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amish)
Again it is a whole different debate altogether and deviates heavily from the original post.
Senthil,
If you ask for my honest opinion, Savarkar’s postives begin and end with that book. Whatever he has written after that, are of dubious in nature, and in many ways, not so enlightening. Of course, he is entitled to have his views, like every other average Joe.
Sukumar,
I have enough data, but the problem here is more of our perception.. I have given mostly the wikipedia link. But it has been rejected as “rightwing” etc. I dont know when wikipedia became rightwing..
Regarding Bose’s details, there is an organisation, which is struggling to bring out the truth about his mystery.
http://www.missionnetaji.org/newsite/page/mystery_overview.html
I quoted the kuthambakkam village for two reasons.
1. Its the brahmins, who helped those dalit village.. contrary to the poipular allegation that brahmins suppressed dalits..
Brahmins are the one of the foremost community which preserves the nationalism, and the essence of Hinduism..
2. This kuthambakkam village shows, what is meant by real upliftment of the poor.. It clearly exposes the duplicity of those vested interests who do politics.. Particularly, elangao shines thousand better than those periyar, who did the greatest injustice to the brahmins..
Vijay,
Its natural that we dont like those who are outspoken.. Perhaps, savarkar did not have the talent to cheat the masses like gandhi & Nehru, not he did not collide with the british for small alms..
Vamsi,
Thanks.. its really a great courage on his part.. elango has started panchayat academy to train other like minded panchayat leaders..
In one way, India was the source of industrial revolution.. A bulk of raw materials was sourced from it..
My question on caste system:
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I hope, i will get direct answer for this question..
The structure of most of the castes has one or two aspects.. Gulam and Gothram.. In my caste, only gulam is used.
But, i heard, in brahmin and nayakkar communities, gulam and gothram are used..
Persons of same gulam are brothers and sisters..
Now, considering the argument of destroying caste system, will you be ready to marry a person, who belongs to the same gulam?
This is very trivial question.. I need direct answer..
Yes. We are Brahmins. Back in 1975, my parents both belonging to same Gothram got married. Also, the famous singer S.P Bala Subramaniam married to a person from same Gothram back in 1970s. I trimmed down my marriage rituals to bare minimum. Removed something called Kaasi Yaatra and another one called ampakalau (where usually the girls parents and the girl cries, as if the bride is sent out from her family to our family).
Usually, I observed people from other communities follow what the priest says very strictly. But being a Brahmin, I had an opportunity to ask him all steps, and trim it down. He galdly accpeted (being a 70 year old orthodox priest, he is very practical. A vedic brahmin, he told that these have no significance these days).
All you need is some initiative to question things that are not practical and use your heart. Nothing will every change if we dont initiate the change. We have to make first step.
Senthil,
I never said Wikipedia is right wing. Can you please show me?
Not to say that i believe everything the wikipedia says because there are several inaccuracies in the Wikipedia.
1. What i pointed out is that from the very same wikipedia link that you put up, that the INA was not effective.
2. Same problem with your 1857 wikipedia link also. The page clearly says how the 1857 mutiny was limited in scope geographically. In any case, as i said, since the british left 100 years later, any impact 1857 created is minimal. Please check your logic again.
3.Netaji’s death may be shrouded in secrecy, but how does that have a bearing on what impact INA had? Please check your logic.
4. I knew this is what you will say about the Elango story. Again you need a logic check here. We are talking about the caste system from the pre-independence days. The fact that today’s Brahmins are doing good things, which is laudable, does not prove that is what they did in pre-independence days.
Senthil,
I don’t understand the need for this question on kulam and gotram. Vamsi has provided the answer you wanted. But to me the question is not relevant. As i said above, what today’s Brahmins do cannot be extrapolated back to pre-independence days. You need a logic check again.
Vamsi,
Fine.. Do you feel, the gothrams and gulams are evil?
My understanding of gothram is descendants of the people, who learned from same guru.. and gulams are people who are descendants of common ancestry, and having common god..
In my community, there is only a concept of gulams. Persons belonging to the same gulam are brothers and sisters.. Its not even thinkable of marrying a girl from the same kula, who would equate to the relation of sister..
There is a general tendency, and an artrificial situation created as to “Leaving away all customs” to be very fashionable.. But, I havent got any convincing answer of why should we leave that? Does all customs are evil?
Another angle to these social setup and related customs is that its one of our ways for commune living.. Its a social capital..
Few months back, when i went to my gula temple, i was surprised to see a family, who migrated to singapore two generations back, tracing back to the temple, and donating around 1 lakh to our temple..
Cultures and customs are life line of a community.. Forcing them to forego it is an injustice to them..
Sukumar,
1. I did not say, INA was an effective match to britishers. Their aim was to create revolt inside British army, who would join them later inland and capture power. Although they failed, their plan effectively worked out later, during Bombay Mutiny. However you are not agreeing to this.
2. 1857 mutiny was a major challenge to britishers. The most important outcome of the uprising is to end the company rule, and bring india in to queens’ rule, a major and most important decision. To say, it did not have effect is again wrong.
3. The mystery of Netaji’s death, signifies the fact how the later congress government, including Nehru handled this issue. It was a cowardice on their part. I dont know what is in that, but, from the congress government’s refuse to hand over the document, its very evident, there is very serious betrayal on their part.
That’s why i told, a leader ceases to be honoured, when they hide the history of his own country.
4. Elango’s story proved caste system is not as rigid as projected. Yesterday’s brahmins were also doing good, and Today’s brahmins are also doing much more good. But, to target that one community, is the most unjust thing in our history.
Regarding caste system i have already quoted , that its the christian missionaries, which started the villification of this system. Till now, they are the ones who are spreading hatred against Not just caste system, but the entire hinduism.
If caste system is termed by you as evil, what would call christianity, for destroying numerous civilization, and committing brutal genocide during Goa Inquisition.
Will you be able to term the entire christianity as Evil? If so, i am very well ready to accept caste system as evil. Justice should be common to all and should not be selective against hinduism.
“Now, considering the argument of destroying caste system, will you be ready to marry a person, who belongs to the same gulam?
This is very trivial question.. I need direct answer..”
For your direct question, I gave a direct answer. Now you raised another two questions
q1) Fine.. Do you feel, the gothrams and gulams are evil?
No. They are not evil. Follow if you can. Dont follow if you cant. Dont crib about others not following. Dont be a moral police of others. We are not Orthodox Catholics…
q2) There is a general tendency, and an artrificial situation created as to “Leaving away all customs” to be very fashionable.. But, I havent got any convincing answer of why should we leave that? Does all customs are evil?
Most, without any scientific reasoning are. We should archive the customs and bring them out if we find any practical reason or good in it. Hindusim survived mostly because of its effective adaptation to various times. If anybody says they followed 100% of all customs as their 5 generations back ancestors followed, I really think they are lying. They would have changed some form or factored in socio-economic influences.
Evil is a strong word. Idiots still argue Sati is good, Kanya sulkam/ Dowry is good, KKK is needed (some ex US presidents openly endorsed it), slavery is fine, racial segregation served its purpose, people should follow what their karma is. Can you believe that Sati is followed (stray incidents) in some places in Rajasthan. What ****ing custom supports that? I am sure there is a pseudo scientific reasoning behind it. Do you support it? Or Do you condemn it?
Check this http://www.bobbiecarlylesculpture.com/SelfMadeMan.php
It applies to any person, society, country, civilization. Nature of course will bring in many changes. But most of them are self inflicting. We are what we are.
I post this as a tribute to great leaders like Kandukoori Veeresalingam Panthulu, Bharatiyaar, Raja Ram Mohan Roy, Gurajada Appa Rao.
NDA is in power with BJP at its helm for 5 years. PMO has enormous powers and resources at it’s disposal. Why did they not do anything if S.C Bose’s death is a controversy?
Do you say that Bose is not respected and did not get his place in the hearts of Indian populace? I doubt that. He is recognized and respected. His name with come when anybody thinks of freedom struggle during 1990s. If he was directly successful, he would have become president ala US first Prez George Washington.
What is your point? If you say Congress is bad. Fine with me. Nobody here says post-independence Congress did lots of mistakes. They also have many +ve things that should be attributed to them. IITs, IIMs, RECs, large PSUs, central institutes, 5 year plans (remember there was no big private industry and entrepreneurship during first few decades), and also enormous hate for capitalism because of popular opinion during that time, defence (thanks to USSR) etc. We aligned with losers of Cold War. That was strategic mistake. But we had to choose one and we cannot predict future. (remember BJMM some Mukthi Morcha destroyed KFC. Then BJP wholeheartedly opened up economy second time for 2nd wave reforms).
Give credit where you should. Criticize where you should. Dont say that Congress is the only responsible party of all problems India faces today.
Senthil,
This is response to your comment
http://www.sastwingees.org/2008/04/20/the-real-history-of-india-part-10-the-abominable-caste-system-indian-fact-or-british-fiction/#comment-3114
Overall, i think you are clutching at straws because you have no more data and using flawed logic and repeating the same points in a circular fashion. The main argument, just to remind you, is to compare Gandhi’s influence/impact on Independence Struggle against other Independence struggles. So the argument is not whether these other Independence struggles had impact – of course, they all did. The question is did they produce the magnitude of impact that Gandhi did. With that context, let me answer your questions:
1. INA,we have already shown from the very same Wiki link you produced that it had 40,000 people at its peak and it had limited impact. Now let us evaluate your claim that it created the Navy Mutiny which gave us independence. First, Please go back and read the history from neutral sources. Here is the turn of events –
There was a major initiative led by the British to convince Congressand to get India’s cooperation in the WWII that started in 1942 and in exchange India’s freedom was being guaranteed at the end of the war. This is also the backdrop of the Crips Mission which failed because Gandhi refused to let India be a party to the war, but Nehru and Patel wanted to take the deal. In any case, irrespective of anything, India was to gain Dominion status (one step short of full independence) at the end of WWII. This is the context. Now if you look at the date of the Navy Mutiny – it happened in Feb 1946 and the mutineers were requested by Patel (your favorite leader, by contrast Nehru did not support this move for surrender) to surrender because it was impeding with the transfer of power from the British. This is how the navy mutiny ended. To say that the Navy Mutiny occurring in 1946 resulted in India’s independence when the independence/near-independence was a forgone conclusion by 1942 is nothing but a figment of the right wing imagination. Given this background, the fact that the INA inspired the Navy Mutiny is irrelevant because the Navy Mutiny merely was an irritant in the large scheme of things.
2. 1857 mutiny- did i say that it did not have impact? You twisted my words to suit your needs. To remind you again, the impact comparison is against Gandhi’s impact. By that token, the mere fact that the British stayed for another 100 years is an ample testimony to the magnitude of 1857 mutiny’s impact. Yes it did have impact but not sufficient to dislodge the British.
3. We have already shown that INA had limited impact (compared to Gandhi). While the circumstances behind Netaji’s death is something we should all know. the mere fact that something is being hidden has no bearing on the impact INA created when Netaji was alive. This is flawed logic. In any case, if this was so important to the right wing, as Vamsi pointed out correctly, why didn’t the BJP govt when it was in power do anything on this? It just shows that this is an empty controversy to just foment trouble and rake it up whenever it is convenient.
4. Elango’s Brahmins are doing good. Agreed. How does that prove Brahmins did good in the yester years? Clearly a flawed logic. If you don’t understand, why this is flawed logic, please sign up for a course on logic.
5. Caste system is evil. That does not make Hinduism evil. Again another flawed logic conclusion. Did i ever say Hinduism is evil? That is an inference you have drawn. I am merely pointing out evil practices in Hinduism. Christianity had its fair share of evil – inquisitions, crusades, forced conversions etc. But that doesn’t make Christianity evil unless you use your flawed logic.
your statement is a wrong parallel “If you Sukumar call Christianity as evil, i will accept caste system as evil” – this is an apples to oranges comparison – flawed logic. For instance, you can say “Sukumar, if you call Christianity as evil, I will accept Hindusim as evil”. That would be a fair comparison. Caste system is just a practice of Hinduism and not the religion itself. So you can say similar to Caste System in Hinduism, there are evil practices in Christianity like the inquisitions. That would be a fair comparison.
Let me say this one more time. If you don’t understand why these are flawed comparisons and flawed logic, please sign up for a course in logic.
Another thing, you seem to revel in writing about the evils in other religions anyway, why should i do the same? Maybe when BJP comes to power next time, they can pass a law – thou shall not write anything negative about Hinduism or India – that would forever end all these controversies and it will make India a really free country and great country because no one is allowed to speak any negatives. What say?
Very informative post Sukumar.
I got a chance to catch up on all your posts today after a long gop. It was a great read. Given me a lot to think about.
Thanks for your kind words Archana. Welcome back to sastwingees.
Thanks for your comment Sukumar. I was struggling to put it the right way but your did it eloquently. While we get to reply direct answers, I see Senthil, parking our direct replies and start a new branch argument. Just waste of time.
Any reference to Classic Congress/ Gandhi is evil for most right wingers. While leaving the 80% good work they did they magnify 20% mistakes and highlight them. Why are these leaders not there in the picture? Why are they not doing mass movements rather than distributing phamplets? There will be no answer.
Congress by no means was intended to be a political party post independence. Absolute power corrupts and it happened. But it happened after a great contribution which these folks will not say.
Thanks Vamsi. Yes Congress should not have become a political party which was very much Gandhi’s wish but Nehru/Patel and others decided to do otherwise. Similarly, Periyar never wanted DK to become a political party, but then Anna thought otherwise and created the DMK and captured power.
Unfortunately, people don’t understand that hindsight is 20/20 – looking back in history we can find faults no matter who the human being is. That unfair approach is being used on Gandhi to vilify him without giving him the credit that is due. I would be happy if the data being provided is atleast the truth which is also not the case – the truth is being twisted to suit the right wing needs to paint Gandhi as a bad person.
I saw this article on CNN today and I was praying it shouldn’t be in India before I clicked on it. Unfortunately, it is – Girl, 6, thrown on fire for being ‘lowest class’
http://www.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/asiapcf/04/30/india.caste/index.html
For every Elango supporting person, we seem to have 100 of these ‘pushing a girl into fire’ ones as well.
Sukumar,
I saw this article on CNN and I was praying that it shouldn’t be about India before clicking on it “Girl 6 thrown on fire for being lowest class”
http://www.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/asiapcf/04/30/india.caste/index.html?imw=Y
Unfortunately, it was in India. For every Elango supporting person, we have 100 more of these idiots that ruin the system.
It is very sad to see this news item. just 2 weeks ago, there was a village in the news because they had put up a electrified fience separating the dalit areas from the caste hindu areas. Based on the news report, the govt intervened and removed the electrified fence. We have a long way to go.
Sukumar,
That is a deliberate mis-information on the part of the newspaper..
Let me quote some other sources of newspaper..
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/Cities/UP_Youth_throws_Dalit_girl_in_fire/articleshow/2998245.cms
The superindent of police reported as below.
………..
……….
“We are thinking of taking more serious action against the accused under the Gangsters’ Act. We want to send across a message that nobody should do such a thing in future,” he said, but denied that the road was meant for only upper caste people.
“It is wrong…It is a general road and everybody was moving on it…There were so many women and children going through that road. The road was never obstructed by people,” he said.
The above news was again confirmed by rediff..
http://www.rediff.com/news/2008/apr/30dalit.htm
In addition to the news in the previous content, rediff reported the following..
…………………..
………………….
The arrested youth, however, told the police that he had not pushed the girl into the hot ashes and that it was an ‘accident’.
Giving details about the incident, Chaturvedi said: “Basically, it is an act of an individual. There is no previous history or any background of enmity.”
Now, the comparison of the news reported by cnn, TOI and rediff is a good benchmark, on how even normal caste related instances are blowed out of proportion..
CNN clearly had deliberately manipulated the news to bash out on Hinduism, which again is not true.
For example, the title itself is highly mis-leading.. the girl is affected only because of the clash on land rights.. but, the dalit tag and upper caste and lower caste tag is deliberately introduced to sensationalise..
secondly, CNN quoted as brahmins came from mouth, kshatriyas came from arms, vysyas from thighs and shudras came from feet..
This interpretation is taken from english translation of our sanskrit text, which is wrong.
When read in the original sanskrit text, the meaning should be interpreted as follows..
Brahmins formed the mouth of the society. (for their recitation of slokas)
kshatriyas formed the arms of the society. (for their strength to protect)
Vysyas formed the thigh of the soceity. (due to their travel to accumulate wealth)
Shudras formed the feet of the society. (due to their hard labour provided)..
The entire meaning got changed just from that one phrase “came from” ..
Unfortunately, we tend to believe that erroneous version of english translation..
And CNN is never going to verify or correct its mistake, and the mis-information will ever remain there after.. and the bad opinions about our society and country..
Sukumar,
This is in reply to your following comment.
http://www.sastwingees.org/2008/04/20/the-real-history-of-india-part-10-the-abominable-caste-system-indian-fact-or-british-fiction/#comment-3070
/** Senthil, Subba is right. I was born in a town, and have spent many of my summer vacations in my ancestral village. Being a Brahmin by birth, i have seen the other side of the caste system – rather the ugly side of it
**/
This means, you agree there is also a positive side of caste system.. But, i have never seen you speaking about the positive side.. Or, do you feel, there is nothing positive in caste system?
/** Let us say we agree with you that caste system is not evil for the sake of argument. How would you term the present day caste system when Dalits are being illtreated and oppressed? Or are these figments of the media imagination?
**/
Instead of me answering, i would be glad to take you to any of the dalit community and let them tell whether they are oppressed ar not..
/** What is your terminology for the obnoxious practices that Brahmins followed and many still do till date? Those are not evil? **/
I would be able to comment, only if you could list out the practices that you term it as evil.. probably, we can have a separate post on this.
Vamsi,
This is reply to your following comment:
http://www.sastwingees.org/2008/04/20/the-real-history-of-india-part-10-the-abominable-caste-system-indian-fact-or-british-fiction/#comment-3115
/** q1) Fine.. Do you feel, the gothrams and gulams are evil?
No. They are not evil.
**/
Gulams and gothrams constitute caste system. If they are not evil, then how come caste system become evil?
/** Follow if you can. Dont follow if you cant. Dont crib about others not following.
**/
I am not asking others to follow caste system.. Where did i crib? I am against your practice of banishing and abusing caste system.
/** Dont be a moral police of others. We are not Orthodox Catholics… **/
The truth is that its the indian elites like you had taken the moral authority in your hand and started prescribing good and bad for the people..
So, my request to you is to stop bashing caste system and branding it as evil…
——————————————
/** Idiots still argue Sati is good, Kanya sulkam/ Dowry is good **/
Why do you always want to categorize everything in to either or condition?
Dowry is a delicate thing, which also served as a movable asset for the girl.. it has played both positive and negative roles, and we should be smart enough to understand it..
infact, kanya sulkam is one of the indication, that women also shared the part of her parents property..
Just ask any of your female colleagues.. whether their parents will give dowry or not..
You cant term a custom as evil, because it is abused..
Democracy cannot become evil, even though it is abused widely..
Vamsi.. I hope, you would read this comment without emotion.. Although i am expecting a harsh reaction from you, and may be, targetting me, branding me.. etc etc.., I also hope, you would treat this in terms of argumental point.. my point here is that we cant apply our current morals and justify past incidents.. we need to look at the past as it is..
—————————————————————————
/**
Can you believe that Sati is followed (stray incidents) in some places in Rajasthan. What ****ing custom supports that? I am sure there is a pseudo scientific reasoning behind it. Do you support it? Or Do you condemn it?
**/
I dont support sati. But, i also dont condemn it. Sati is a social virtue in the past. Sati means, the women, will embrace death voluntarily offering her to fire, after her husband’s death. It was not forced upon, and done only at the consent of the women concerned. The women undergoing sati were reverred and worshipped..
Infact, if the women can to stay alive if she decides so.
There is an account of a direct witness of sati during 16th century by an european traveller. It was really enlightening and interesting to read..
page#8 in the following link..
http://www.samanvaya.com/dharampal/frames/downloads/vol1.pdf
I also agree, it has been misused sometimes.
But we need not be ashamed of it in general, or feel low of it.. Its an age old custom, unimaginable in present times.
I hope, you would have heard of the custom “Sattara”, which is still followed by jains.. Its a voluntary embracing of death, through controlled and regulated fasting, which is still followed in gujarat.
Although it cannot be compared with sati, the purpose of both is same.. to attain the higher world by departing from the current one..
/** While leaving the 80% good work they did they magnify 20% mistakes and highlight them **/
Vamsi.. it would have been fair and just, if you see every other leader in the same context..
Savarkar participated in revolutionary activities, and suffered severe imprisonment for his fierce activities.. But, do you have the heart to acknowledge his contribution.. never.. for you, gandhi is always a hero, and savarkar is always a villain.. Just another trait of western christianised society that we acquired..
Even godse did lot of good things, participated in gandhi’s freedom struggle, and committed only one mistake..
Let me quote gandhi’s idiotic blunder, which costed thousands of lives.
1. During partition, a lot of refugees (mostly hindus) arrived at delhi, and they stayed in various mosques. Without caring about their well being, gandhi demanded restoring of the mosques to the muslims, and even repairing them. Due to this, the refugees were dragged out and left in the severe chilling winter, where many people succumbed to death.
2. After partition, when pakistan was preparing to invade india, gandhi started another fast, demanding india to pay 52 crores to pakistan. Even after patel explained that the amount would only be used to buy weapons, this idiot forced them pay the amount.
There is a nice word for the persons, who is supporting or helping the enemy which is invading us.. i dont want to mention it..
And such a great blunder were mentioned as few mistake.. ofcourse, the lives of those refugees doesnt mean anything to us.. because, they are poor people..
Senthil.
/**
Gulams and gothrams constitute caste system. If they are not evil, then how come caste system become evil?
**/
Gulams and Gothrams are not caste system. They are part of caste system. As a practice, caste system is evil. There could be few good things. But most of it we see in practice is bad. It is as much same as racism.
What makes you think I am an Indian Elite. Do you really know my allegiance? I am right in the center. I respect both sides and take independent view. As a practice, caste based society is bad. It is not practical at all in 21st century.
You are lucky to see +ve side of every social evil which most of the modern reformers, politicians and public acknowledged.
/**
Vamsi.. it would have been fair and just, if you see every other leader in the same context..
**/
Now why should we see everyone in the same context. They are not in the same league. Savarkar is the epitome of Hindu radicalism and preached anarchy. Does he care for Muslims? When we talk about leaders why do you bring a murderer. For doing few good things? This is where right wing exposes their color so shamelessly.
I think Gandhi’s fast for paying 52 Crores is not a smartest thing. Since you are super informed of how Pakistan spent that 52 crores, can you please identify how much they spent on arms that led to direct strengthening of their army? And also how that caused any disadvantage to India during 1947-1948 war?
Gandhi asking all refugees to vacate mosques is the right thing. It is to bring down violence. Government should arrange for proper care of refugees. For me, life of refugees is valuable irrespective of the religion. For you life of a Hindu refugee seems to be more valuable.
You are again beating around the bush.
Take this paradig,
If I write 2000 lines of code, I make 10 mistakes.
If I write 20K lines of code (of one of the most innovative software that helps millions of users,) I may get more bugs in my code. It doesnt mean that I should be made a lesser important contributor. Or fair to be compared with someone who wrote a 100 lines of code (like Savarkar) or with someone who wrote 2 lines of code with a show stopper bug that halted the project and is a disgruntled developer who hates programming (like Godse).
Senthil,
Thanks for pointing out the discrepancies in CNN’s report. It does look like they are trying to sensationalize.
Your translation of the purusha sooktam is incorrect.
Can you please quote the source of your purusha sooktam translation? For your information Purusha Sooktam in RV – Book 10 Hymn 90 is the creation hymn. This talks about how the world was created by God. In that context Verse 12, which covers the castes, clearly talks about Brahmins being created out of the mouth, Kshatriyas (actually Rajanya the original RV term) from the hands, Vaisyas from the thighs and the Sudras from the feet. Here is the sanskirt original.
http://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/rvsan/rv10090.htm
You can use a Sanksrit English Dictionary and figure out the meaning yourself.
Senthil,
This is the response to your comment
http://www.sastwingees.org/2008/04/20/the-real-history-of-india-part-10-the-abominable-caste-system-indian-fact-or-british-fiction/#comment-3182
Since you seem to keep saying caste system is great etc, i said i have seen the other side of it. Unfortunately, i don’t find anything good in the caste system. It is pure evil.
If you say Dalits are happy, i need to see evidence of it. Talking to 2 of your Dalit friends who may or may not be affected by the caste system is not sufficient evidence. If that is alll the evidence you have, please reread my posts on the belief system.
If you don’t know what evil practices Brahmins had, please read some more on the Internet. If you don’t even have knowledge of what evil was being done, i don’t know how you can even argue your case. Please read some more about India’s history from neutral sources (not right wing sites) and then come back.
Senthil,
Now that you have lost the debate about Gandhi’s impact on the independence struggle, you seem to have opened a new thread.
Can you please quote your source for this statement of yours:
“Let me quote gandhi’s idiotic blunder, which costed thousands of lives.
1. During partition, a lot of refugees (mostly hindus) arrived at delhi, and they stayed in various mosques. Without caring about their well being, gandhi demanded restoring of the mosques to the muslims, and even repairing them. Due to this, the refugees were dragged out and left in the severe chilling winter, where many people succumbed to death.
2. After partition, when pakistan was preparing to invade india, gandhi started another fast, demanding india to pay 52 crores to pakistan. Even after patel explained that the amount would only be used to buy weapons, this idiot forced them pay the amount.”
I hope you have something other than right wing sites for this information. I doubt it, but i am willing to listen.
Vamsi,
I loved your software analogy for Gandhi vs. Sawarkar vs. Godse.
Senthil, if Vamsi’s analogy is not clear, you need to sign up for a course in logic.
Senthil,
This is regarding your comment
http://www.sastwingees.org/2008/04/20/the-real-history-of-india-part-10-the-abominable-caste-system-indian-fact-or-british-fiction/#comment-3179
http://www.sastwingees.org/2008/04/20/the-real-history-of-india-part-10-the-abominable-caste-system-indian-fact-or-british-fiction/#comment-3181
It’s sad that you get outraged about whether brahman forms the mouth and sudras form the feet and not get outraged enough about a 6 year old girl being pushed into fire for what you call “on how even normal caste related instances are blown out of proportion”
I am going to use Matthew Mcconaughey’s words from “Time to Kill” to paint you the picture – Imagine that 6 year old girl is yours and she’s walking down the street and she gets pushed into fire. Now imagine, that the youth who’s pushing her is . Now, imagine that you are a brahmin.
How would you have reacted to this or worse, how would your community have reacted to this? Since westerners and people from any other religion seem to roast your nut equally, you can put any one of them in the “fit your worst person here” scenario.
Only you would be able to diminish something this grave to “clash on land rights”.
My comment is missing an inline that I added. Here’s another try at it.
Senthil,
This is regarding your comment
http://www.sastwingees.org/2008/04/20/the-real-history-of-india-part-10-the-abominable-caste-system-indian-fact-or-british-fiction/#comment-3179
http://www.sastwingees.org/2008/04/20/the-real-history-of-india-part-10-the-abominable-caste-system-indian-fact-or-british-fiction/#comment-3181
It’s sad that you get outraged about whether brahman forms the mouth and sudras form the feet and not get outraged enough about a 6 year old girl being pushed into fire for what you call “on how even normal caste related instances are blown out of proportion”
I am going to use Matthew Mcconaughey’s words from “Time to Kill” to paint you the picture – Imagine that 6 year old girl is yours and she’s walking down the street and she gets pushed into fire. Now imagine, that the youth who’s pushing her is “Fit your worst person here” . Now, imagine that you are a brahmin.
How would you have reacted to this or worse, how would your community have reacted to this? Since westerners and people from any other religion seem to roast your nut equally, you can put any one of them in the “fit your worst person here” scenario.
Only you would be able to diminish something this grave to “clash on land rights”.
Touchy Sridhar. I agree with you.
Thanks Vamsi.
What is disappointing is – when reading the article, Senthil is looking at how each magazine/publication is sensationalizing the news rather than the core of the news which all sources seem to agree.
Sridhar,
I got what you are conveying. there is no doubt, that it was an terrific incident. Whether done intentionally or not, the accused should undergo the punishment for his blunder.
But, i was more enraged, how the Vested media plays with such inhuman incident. The way CNN IBN reported amounts to worst crime than the the accused itself. Shouldnt we eqaully outraged at such vultures?
I mentioned “Clash on Land rights”, because i had seen similar incidents in our area. (although no untowards incidents happened like this little girl falling in to the fire). Normally people used to cross through the fields to reach the main road, and some times when this way is prominent, it will become a public path used widely. Some times, the land owner, exerts his right and block the path due to some inconveniences.
In the incident we are discussing, I dont know the full details. But, i guess, that it may be like the one i described above, which led to this unfortunate one.
——————————————————————————————–
Not this incident. Most of the dalit incidents are not related to caste in any way. It would be clash of two groups over small issues not related to castes. Since our social life is commune, the respective community people gather around supporting their person.
But, when reported, the news goes all through editor, and comes as Caste clash, suppression, oppression, and other emotional issues.
Its is this 100 years of divisive propogation by missionaries and marxists, which increased the problem leading to enmity and hatred between the castes..
And we are continuing what they had so far done.
instead of understanding the problem we often resort to self dejection, self humiliation, self- defeating arguments, which serves no purpose.
On the other hand, if we could understand the problem and seek for solutions, we could have achieved a lot.
But, with highly biased views like “Caste system as evil”, we can never think straight and independant.
An australian does not get ashamed for their brutal past killing most of aborigines. A spaniard will not ashame themselves for destroying the great INCA civilization. An american or british person will not ashame themselves for uprooting red indians, and for inhuman and barbaric slave trade.
But its only the Indians, and particularly the elite indians, who can abuse their own religion, society, country, for even a smallest drawbacks or mistakes. This is what i call the gandhian disease. A psyche of collective suicide, and collective dejection.
Sridhar,
For your question, my answer would be like below.
‘If i am a brahmin, and the girl were to be my daughter, not even a single newspaper would have reported it. because i am a brahmin.
If the loss of 40,000 lives of kashmiri pandits itself were ignored for two decades, how could just this single petty brahmin’s suffering could be recognized.”
If you agree or not.. there is a certain pattern, and a certain pre-defined meaning attached to some most important key words.
Let me list out some of the key words and what they mean to our elites and media.
Brahmin – owner for all wrongs of india’s past. Any one can mock them.. they wont fight back.. They are not eligible for any concession, kindness, or justice.
Right wing – Anything they say is a crap.. should be outrightly rejected. No need to specify reason.
Caste – Most evil for no reason.
Hindus – always Accountable for secularism.. they are responsible, even if others attack them.. they should call themselves as hindus.
Minority – They are NOT accountable for anything. They should be given everything.. special privileges, government aids etc. A poor gets recognition, only if he/she is a minority. only they are eligible for upliftment.
Dalit – Always the victims, even if the issue is even handed. its a flexible term, to add any community to it as wished.
Secularists – any one who pounds at Hindus and Hinduism, are eligible for it.
Gandhi – He can never do wrong. Even if he committed serious blunder, he is not accountable.
Godse – synonym for satan.. he can never be right.. doesnot even have the rights of a serial killer to defend his case.. any one referring this name, becomes a villain or satan..
Senthil,
I am sorry, but I don’t subscribe to your ideas / preachings. I don’t understand what the little girl incident has to do with missionaries or marxists, but, don’t take that as an excuse to lecture us further on your hatred towards diversity. Its quite clear to me as it is.
Since you don’t know the full details behind the “girl landing in fire”, and neither do I, I think we should stop guessing and look at the news as it is described. It wouldn’t have appeared as a news item if it were benign, would it?
Collective suicide, collective dejection – Aren’t you assuming that you know everyone’s state of mind as they read this blog and how they feel. Isn’t it too presumptuous on your part to think that you know the pulse of this blogging community let alone a country of over 1 Billion. Why should we all be self-dejected or loathing in self-pity?
You still haven’t answered my question – If this girl were a Brahmin girl and the Young man in question is a Dalit, would you have reacted in the same way or would you be marching down the street calling for blood?
Senthil,
I was too quick on the trigger and didn’t see your comment
http://www.sastwingees.org/2008/04/20/the-real-history-of-india-part-10-the-abominable-caste-system-indian-fact-or-british-fiction/#comment-3217
My question to you was not “How would the media have reacted if the tables were turned”, but “How would YOU have reacted?”
I think I have your answer peppered throughout your radical response.
Senthil,
You started off the post with a great statements. Suddenly you started bashing Marxists and Missionaries. May I know the reason. News will change color. Truthful reporting is a continuous pursuit. People do add story. When I deal with media for some immigration related issues, I always see reporters asking for something special not routine and not common. They have to sell the story.
Apart from YouTube, Blogs etc, always the information will be edited for selling. That is how it is IMHO.
Apart from you nobody is agreeing to the above stereotypical views. Why do you have so antipathy? Indian society can never progress if we divide.
Let me list out some of the key words and what they mean to our rightwingees. I think you may agree right.
Brahmin – supreme authority of all right and divine issues. Can never be wrong. Even if he does any atrocities it is because his religion gave that privilege.
Right wing – Supreme moral police. Always aligns with other nationalists, Zionists and self-centered audience. Fabricates history and tries to push the county 300 years backwards. Introduce great sciences like vastu, astrology in schools. Cares more about old temples and mosques than respecting peoples real needs. But are doing this because other colonists did in dark ages and are not repenting now.
Caste – Ethiopian system until evil British missionaries came and made it rigid. Otherwise would have made this industrial and information revolution effected world more meaningful with it’s mobile structure.
Hindus – They dont know their religion and how to interpret it. Miraculously survived 3 millenniums. But now great Hindu leaders came and revitalizing and redefining this religion.
Minority – Assholes. Since they ruled Bharat for so many years, should be kicked out of the counry. Lynched if possible. But bloody constitution is there. So, let us make them live under fear. If possible take away any of their religious freedom and make them become liberal forcibly.
Dalit – They were enjoying being abused. (kind of sadomasochists) Now they realized their vote power and started voting smart. Also trying to do some blasphemous things like trying to become priests. (how dare!!).
Secularists – Evil. They dont know how to respect religion. Like Newtonian ether they are dispersed across the whole country. If they had not added that word Secular in our constitution, we would have annihilated them.
Gandhi – Root cause of all problems. Never worked hard enough.Always fought with Ahimsa that stupid word Hinduism always espoused. Should have made all people to take swords and kill British. We would have won our freedom with blood in hands and ruled our country the way we wanted. (never care ‘we’ here means RSS, Hindu Mahasabha, and other rightwingees who are at the max 2/3 million of this billion people).
Godse – Should create a separate department in every major university on this guy and study the reasons why he did what he did. Once he said he followed Gandhi, he must have strong reasons for becoming his murderer. So, let us understand this guy and study all morals that can be drawn. Meanwhile, we will also see if we can have statutes every where and declare his birthday as national holiday. If possible, we can also have his life story for school children. After all he is a member of Hindu Mahasabha. And that org has Hindu in it’s name.
So if we all agree will you be happy? Try to come out of your self-defense and see what is what. If you have facts, state them. If you have feelings, keep for yourselves. I too can feel that I own England. But I dont. That is the truth.
Sridhar, our posts crossed. I too had the same Q. What are Marx and Missionaries doing in this post. Last time I checked, Marx and Missionaries are in the two ends of the spectrum.
Senthil bringing them together is a courageous act. If not for anything this could be the reason why communists and Christians loathe right wingees 
.
One simple question,
*Common man doesnt subscribe for this ideology.
*Muslims, anyway dont
*Dalits wont
*All upper caste folks (according to you are elite) dont believe in right wing ideology.
*Leftists wont
*Christians wont
*Sikhs wont as they have more powerful groups
*Atheists never
You took away 85% of population and left with a minority. Why should anybody care to give any mileage to rightwingers? Media or otherwise. If you keep pursuing this meaning less comments and beating around the bush, you will get an opportunity to have last post and it will be a deep sigh from most of the respondents of this post.
Vamsi,
Yes, our comments crossed paths. I like your right-wing manuscript about the world around us
Sridhar and Vamsi, great bunch to Senthil’s usual remarks.
I think that he is living somewhere in Himalayas with Lord Siva, far away from practical life with rigid social views. He is even justifying sati, dowry. He just forgot that these all are illegal as per Indian constitution. He and his rightwing trying to take India to backward.
I completely missed this discussion. I agree with Subba. Vamsi/Sreedhar, you have given a very good response to Senthil.
Senthil, i have said this many times before, and i have now written 2 whole posts on belief systems and why sweeping generalizations are the most flawed. I think you seriously need some coaching in logic.
Senthil,
I am reacting to this comment
http://www.sastwingees.org/2008/04/20/the-real-history-of-india-part-10-the-abominable-caste-system-indian-fact-or-british-fiction/#comment-3216
How do you know Australians are not ashamed? The prime minister of australia recently issued a public apology to the aborigines. I am sure you missed that news item maybe because the right wing sites you follow did not cover that. How do you know Americans are not sorry about slavery and the oppression of the natives? Do you have any data to support this?
Let me say this as aggressively as possible – If there is any culture on the planet that does not feel shamed for what oppressive practices their forefathers did, they are stupid and idiotic. Intelligent cultures on the other hand, try to understand what went wrong and correct them.
It looks like you would rather India be stupid and idiotic, and go back further by another 500 years compared to the rest of the world. You know what, you can keep that attitude, no issues. The readers of this blog who i hold in the highest esteem will not kowtow to that. We are here to make our small contribution to society to make lives better in the way we think. There is nothing to be ashamed about what we are doing except to you and a small minority as Vamsi pointed out accurately.