The Real History of India Part 10 – The Abominable Caste System – Indian Fact or British Fiction?

Prolog:

Last week, we covered one of Islam’s key contributions to India. There is plenty of material out there to undertstand the bad things done by the Islamists, which is why i wrote about some good things they did. Any discussion on India’s history is not complete without considering the caste system. In this post, i want to cover the caste system using 3 different scholarly viewpoints. Thanks to Aditya and one other contributor who wishes to be anonymous, i came across the works of Nicholas Dirks. Thanks to Senthil for introducing me to Dharampal, the brilliant Gandhian Scholar who decided to look directly into the sources of British wisdom about India – the papers published by British officers on various aspects of India. Thanks to Priya Raju, I came across A.N. Sattanathan’s A Sudra’s Story – Sattanathan was the first Backward Classes Commission Chairman of Tamilnadu, who rose up from a disadvantaged background.

What was the caste system like Pre-British?

It is essential for us to understand whether the caste system existed in India before the British and if so, in what form did it exist? Most of the knowledge about India’s caste system came from British historians like James Mills/William Jones. Or from European Historians like Max Mueller and others who were influenced by the British historians themselves as well as made their own contributions to the discussion and influenced British opinion. It is these opinions that have mattered when it comes to gaining an understanding of India’s caste system. From my readings, it appears there is a lot of distortions in the way the caste system has been understood.

Reading the works of the 3 people i mention above, has given me some clarity on the caste system.

Nicholas Dirks

Dirks’ strategy was to focus on a region of Pudukottai, formerly a Princely State that was ruled by kings from the Kallar martial caste (now part of the Mukkulathor community). His choice is brilliant because as he explains in this paper, British tampering is likely to have been minimal. In that paper, he shows how the pre-British caste system functioned as a socio-political-religious-economic structure.

Colin Mackenzie was the Surveyor General of India, another remarkable man, who collected a lot of material on India’s history as his side-project. It is the Mackenzie collection that formed the basis of later British works about Indian history. Dirks shows in another paper how the whole Colin Mackenzie collection used flawed techniques to collect information on India’s society. Dirks also made the startling observation that there was a ridiculously small number of references to caste in the Mackenzie collection.

Based on these and other observations and extensive field work in South India, Nicholas Dirks published what is seen as a landmark publication on the caste system – Castes of Mind, in which he proves that the caste system as seen in India today is completely a British creation (of course, he doesn’t say the caste system didn’t exist before this). Here is an excellent review of this great book, by Champakalakshmi, a noted Indian historian.

Dharampal

Dharampal, on the other hand, decided to rely upon the various reports published by British collectors and officers about the state of India’s education system, technology etc. Given that these reports were produced by the officers in charge of the territories they were reporting on, Dharampal’s data seems quite reliable. Since the caste system atleast in the modern context is closely tied to the education system, i decided to read The Beautiful Tree – containing Dharampal’s description of the pre-British education system.

This book contains a lot of material including reproductions of the reports of the British officers. i found it extremely useful to understand what the British thought about India. In this book, Dharampal, proves that the the Indian education system was extensive, there was a school in every village which taught the Hindu curriculum and there were also higher institutions somewhat like modern day colleges where more advanced subjects were taught etc. He also proves that there was no real discrimination based on caste in the education system.

Sattanathan

It is when i read Sattanathan that i realized that there is a big mistake that many Indologists make by equating the caste system as practiced in Tamilnadu with other states. The key difference from other states lies in the fact that Brahmins formed just 4% of Tamilnadu’s population and that percentage still holds (i think it is now 3%, citation needed). In other states it is between 15-35% (citation needed).

Let us look at some statistics that Sattanathan reports on Page 185:

It is on record that between 1894 and 1904, in the provincial civil services, out of 16 officers 15 were Brahmans, among 21 Assistant Engineers, 17 were Brahmans, out of 140 Deputy Collectors 77 were Brahmans, and out of 128 district munsiffs, 98 were Brahmans. This was inevitable, as, according to E.F.Irschick, who had made a deep study of this subject, during these years, between 67 percent and 71 percent of the graduates of the Madras University came from a single community: Brahman.

further on page 155 he states:

Towards the end of the 19th century, 80 to 90 percent of all jobs available to Indians were occupied by Brahmans, and they were dominating other professions also. It is needless to quote statistics of the number of Government servants, lawyers etc. of this period, as these are often quoted in other reports and publications.

My inferences

I have read a lot of material on the subject and what i have quoted is the choicest parts of the material i have read. i was able to draw these key inferences when i put all the three pictures together:

1. From Dirks’ writings, it does appear that the British made the caste system into what is today and hence the blame must fall on the head of the British. But if you look at Dharampal’s research, we have to conclude that the caste system did have the foundational aspects of the abominable system we see even today. Though, I agree with Dirks and Dharampal, that because of the British, the caste system became more ossified, i am not able to agree that the evil aspects of the caste system was a British creation.

2. Dharampal, on the other hand, has clearly shown that there was not much discrimination based on the caste in the pre-British education system. But the big problem in Dharampal’s work is this – what did people do after they passed out of the education system? His own research shows that the students went back into their own caste’s professions many a times dropping out of the education system completely.

3. Now, when you look at Sattanathan’s data, the picture gets completed. It is what they did after the education that matters and it appears that is where net effects of the discrimination are seen. The British Macaulay system accentuated this further by first focusing on the Brahmins, handing them an almost monopolistic dominance of the jobs.

Epilog:

It is interesting to note that given the dominance of the Brahmin community, Tamilnadu was faced with the unique situation of having to resort to reservations for the majority community (non-brahmins) to level the playing field. I think this is unprecedented in the history of affirmative action anywhere in the world. When i wrote in support of affirmative action a while ago i was not aware of the extent of the caste system in Tamilnadu. Brahmins used to live in segregated areas – agraharams and also had segregated eateries (Brahmanargal sappidum idam or Brahmins only eatery). It is in this sort of a context that we must look at Periyar. There are people who attack Periyar for his atheistic policies and/or his marriage to a young girl. Everyone has flaws and I am sure Periyar did as well. Without Periyar, this unnatural dominance of a rank minority would have continued forever. Periyar’s contribution to the social reformation of India, especially Tamilnadu is unparalleled, making him one of the greatest sons of India.

Next week, i want to cover some aspects of the Indian education system, as seen by Dharampal because it has some valuable clues into the process of Aryanization.


Comments

  1. Quote
    senthil (subscribed) said May 6, 2008, 12:34 pm:

    Sridhar,

    I got what you are conveying. there is no doubt, that it was an terrific incident. Whether done intentionally or not, the accused should undergo the punishment for his blunder.

    But, i was more enraged, how the Vested media plays with such inhuman incident. The way CNN IBN reported amounts to worst crime than the the accused itself. Shouldnt we eqaully outraged at such vultures?

    I mentioned “Clash on Land rights”, because i had seen similar incidents in our area. (although no untowards incidents happened like this little girl falling in to the fire). Normally people used to cross through the fields to reach the main road, and some times when this way is prominent, it will become a public path used widely. Some times, the land owner, exerts his right and block the path due to some inconveniences.

    In the incident we are discussing, I dont know the full details. But, i guess, that it may be like the one i described above, which led to this unfortunate one.
    ——————————————————————————————–

    Not this incident. Most of the dalit incidents are not related to caste in any way. It would be clash of two groups over small issues not related to castes. Since our social life is commune, the respective community people gather around supporting their person.
    But, when reported, the news goes all through editor, and comes as Caste clash, suppression, oppression, and other emotional issues.

    Its is this 100 years of divisive propogation by missionaries and marxists, which increased the problem leading to enmity and hatred between the castes..
    And we are continuing what they had so far done.

    instead of understanding the problem we often resort to self dejection, self humiliation, self- defeating arguments, which serves no purpose.
    On the other hand, if we could understand the problem and seek for solutions, we could have achieved a lot.

    But, with highly biased views like “Caste system as evil”, we can never think straight and independant.

    An australian does not get ashamed for their brutal past killing most of aborigines. A spaniard will not ashame themselves for destroying the great INCA civilization. An american or british person will not ashame themselves for uprooting red indians, and for inhuman and barbaric slave trade.
    But its only the Indians, and particularly the elite indians, who can abuse their own religion, society, country, for even a smallest drawbacks or mistakes. This is what i call the gandhian disease. A psyche of collective suicide, and collective dejection.

  2. Quote
    senthil (subscribed) said May 6, 2008, 12:55 pm:

    Sridhar,

    For your question, my answer would be like below.

    ‘If i am a brahmin, and the girl were to be my daughter, not even a single newspaper would have reported it. because i am a brahmin.

    If the loss of 40,000 lives of kashmiri pandits itself were ignored for two decades, how could just this single petty brahmin’s suffering could be recognized.”

    If you agree or not.. there is a certain pattern, and a certain pre-defined meaning attached to some most important key words.
    Let me list out some of the key words and what they mean to our elites and media.

    Brahmin – owner for all wrongs of india’s past. Any one can mock them.. they wont fight back.. They are not eligible for any concession, kindness, or justice.

    Right wing – Anything they say is a crap.. should be outrightly rejected. No need to specify reason.

    Caste – Most evil for no reason.

    Hindus – always Accountable for secularism.. they are responsible, even if others attack them.. they should call themselves as hindus.

    Minority – They are NOT accountable for anything. They should be given everything.. special privileges, government aids etc. A poor gets recognition, only if he/she is a minority. only they are eligible for upliftment.

    Dalit – Always the victims, even if the issue is even handed. its a flexible term, to add any community to it as wished.

    Secularists – any one who pounds at Hindus and Hinduism, are eligible for it.

    Gandhi – He can never do wrong. Even if he committed serious blunder, he is not accountable.

    Godse – synonym for satan.. he can never be right.. doesnot even have the rights of a serial killer to defend his case.. any one referring this name, becomes a villain or satan..

  3. Quote
    Sridhar N.K said May 6, 2008, 1:38 pm:

    Senthil,

    I am sorry, but I don’t subscribe to your ideas / preachings. I don’t understand what the little girl incident has to do with missionaries or marxists, but, don’t take that as an excuse to lecture us further on your hatred towards diversity. Its quite clear to me as it is.

    Since you don’t know the full details behind the “girl landing in fire”, and neither do I, I think we should stop guessing and look at the news as it is described. It wouldn’t have appeared as a news item if it were benign, would it?

    Collective suicide, collective dejection – Aren’t you assuming that you know everyone’s state of mind as they read this blog and how they feel. Isn’t it too presumptuous on your part to think that you know the pulse of this blogging community let alone a country of over 1 Billion. Why should we all be self-dejected or loathing in self-pity?

    You still haven’t answered my question – If this girl were a Brahmin girl and the Young man in question is a Dalit, would you have reacted in the same way or would you be marching down the street calling for blood?

  4. Quote
    Sridhar N.K said May 6, 2008, 1:45 pm:

    Senthil,

    I was too quick on the trigger and didn’t see your comment

    http://www.sastwingees.org/2008/04/20/the-real-history-of-india-part-10-the-abominable-caste-system-indian-fact-or-british-fiction/#comment-3217

    My question to you was not “How would the media have reacted if the tables were turned”, but “How would YOU have reacted?”

    I think I have your answer peppered throughout your radical response.

  5. Quote
    Vamsi (subscribed) said May 6, 2008, 1:55 pm:

    Senthil,

    You started off the post with a great statements. Suddenly you started bashing Marxists and Missionaries. May I know the reason. News will change color. Truthful reporting is a continuous pursuit. People do add story. When I deal with media for some immigration related issues, I always see reporters asking for something special not routine and not common. They have to sell the story.
    Apart from YouTube, Blogs etc, always the information will be edited for selling. That is how it is IMHO.

    Apart from you nobody is agreeing to the above stereotypical views. Why do you have so antipathy? Indian society can never progress if we divide.

    Let me list out some of the key words and what they mean to our rightwingees. I think you may agree right.

    Brahmin – supreme authority of all right and divine issues. Can never be wrong. Even if he does any atrocities it is because his religion gave that privilege.

    Right wing – Supreme moral police. Always aligns with other nationalists, Zionists and self-centered audience. Fabricates history and tries to push the county 300 years backwards. Introduce great sciences like vastu, astrology in schools. Cares more about old temples and mosques than respecting peoples real needs. But are doing this because other colonists did in dark ages and are not repenting now.

    Caste – Ethiopian system until evil British missionaries came and made it rigid. Otherwise would have made this industrial and information revolution effected world more meaningful with it’s mobile structure.

    Hindus – They dont know their religion and how to interpret it. Miraculously survived 3 millenniums. But now great Hindu leaders came and revitalizing and redefining this religion.

    Minority – Assholes. Since they ruled Bharat for so many years, should be kicked out of the counry. Lynched if possible. But bloody constitution is there. So, let us make them live under fear. If possible take away any of their religious freedom and make them become liberal forcibly.

    Dalit – They were enjoying being abused. (kind of sadomasochists) Now they realized their vote power and started voting smart. Also trying to do some blasphemous things like trying to become priests. (how dare!!).

    Secularists – Evil. They dont know how to respect religion. Like Newtonian ether they are dispersed across the whole country. If they had not added that word Secular in our constitution, we would have annihilated them.

    Gandhi – Root cause of all problems. Never worked hard enough.Always fought with Ahimsa that stupid word Hinduism always espoused. Should have made all people to take swords and kill British. We would have won our freedom with blood in hands and ruled our country the way we wanted. (never care ‘we’ here means RSS, Hindu Mahasabha, and other rightwingees who are at the max 2/3 million of this billion people).

    Godse – Should create a separate department in every major university on this guy and study the reasons why he did what he did. Once he said he followed Gandhi, he must have strong reasons for becoming his murderer. So, let us understand this guy and study all morals that can be drawn. Meanwhile, we will also see if we can have statutes every where and declare his birthday as national holiday. If possible, we can also have his life story for school children. After all he is a member of Hindu Mahasabha. And that org has Hindu in it’s name.

    So if we all agree will you be happy? Try to come out of your self-defense and see what is what. If you have facts, state them. If you have feelings, keep for yourselves. I too can feel that I own England. But I dont. That is the truth.

  6. Quote
    Vamsi (subscribed) said May 6, 2008, 2:15 pm:

    Sridhar, our posts crossed. I too had the same Q. What are Marx and Missionaries doing in this post. Last time I checked, Marx and Missionaries are in the two ends of the spectrum. 🙂 Senthil bringing them together is a courageous act. If not for anything this could be the reason why communists and Christians loathe right wingees ;-).

    One simple question,
    *Common man doesnt subscribe for this ideology.
    *Muslims, anyway dont
    *Dalits wont
    *All upper caste folks (according to you are elite) dont believe in right wing ideology.
    *Leftists wont
    *Christians wont
    *Sikhs wont as they have more powerful groups
    *Atheists never

    You took away 85% of population and left with a minority. Why should anybody care to give any mileage to rightwingers? Media or otherwise. If you keep pursuing this meaning less comments and beating around the bush, you will get an opportunity to have last post and it will be a deep sigh from most of the respondents of this post.

  7. Quote
    Sridhar N.K said May 6, 2008, 2:27 pm:

    Vamsi,

    Yes, our comments crossed paths. I like your right-wing manuscript about the world around us 🙂

  8. Quote
    Subba Muthurangan said May 6, 2008, 4:55 pm:

    Sridhar and Vamsi, great bunch to Senthil’s usual remarks.

    I think that he is living somewhere in Himalayas with Lord Siva, far away from practical life with rigid social views. He is even justifying sati, dowry. He just forgot that these all are illegal as per Indian constitution. He and his rightwing trying to take India to backward.

  9. Quote
    Sukumar (subscribed) said May 6, 2008, 10:19 pm:

    I completely missed this discussion. I agree with Subba. Vamsi/Sreedhar, you have given a very good response to Senthil.

    Senthil, i have said this many times before, and i have now written 2 whole posts on belief systems and why sweeping generalizations are the most flawed. I think you seriously need some coaching in logic.

  10. Quote
    Sukumar (subscribed) said May 6, 2008, 10:27 pm:

    Senthil,
    I am reacting to this comment
    http://www.sastwingees.org/2008/04/20/the-real-history-of-india-part-10-the-abominable-caste-system-indian-fact-or-british-fiction/#comment-3216

    How do you know Australians are not ashamed? The prime minister of australia recently issued a public apology to the aborigines. I am sure you missed that news item maybe because the right wing sites you follow did not cover that. How do you know Americans are not sorry about slavery and the oppression of the natives? Do you have any data to support this?

    Let me say this as aggressively as possible – If there is any culture on the planet that does not feel shamed for what oppressive practices their forefathers did, they are stupid and idiotic. Intelligent cultures on the other hand, try to understand what went wrong and correct them.

    It looks like you would rather India be stupid and idiotic, and go back further by another 500 years compared to the rest of the world. You know what, you can keep that attitude, no issues. The readers of this blog who i hold in the highest esteem will not kowtow to that. We are here to make our small contribution to society to make lives better in the way we think. There is nothing to be ashamed about what we are doing except to you and a small minority as Vamsi pointed out accurately.

  11. Quote
    senthil (subscribed) said January 2, 2011, 4:18 pm:

    @vamsi & @sridhar,

    We were debating about missionaries controlling different aspects of politics and religion in india. Could you pls let me know your opinion on the following
    http://www.dnaindia.com/bangalore/report_christian-missionary-behind-nithyananda-sex-scandal-ranjitha_1488741

    Ranjitha confesses that she was threatened by a man from christian missionary.. She says the whole episode of Nithyananda scandal is orchestrated by missionaries.

    Next, you might have recently heard news about TRS leader chandrasekhar rao publicly announcing that Telengana is for Christ.. and in TN, jayalalitha succumbs to collective christian votebank..

    Dont you all feel, these are signs of a christian invasion through various tools, like demographics thru conversion, attack on native religion thru propoganda by controlling media, destroying important religious figures either physically (Swamy Laxmananda saraswathy in orissa) or by character assasination (Premananda, recently Nithyananda), and by controlling the highest seat of power through their proxy (the catholic Sonia Gandhi, the catholic A.K. Antony as defence minister.. etc)

    Are you all going to still believe blindly in this propoganda of secularism, instead of understanding the larger designs?

    I can only say, that all of your freedom is safegaurded only in a hindu majority india, and NOT in minority dominated areas like kashmir or Northeast.

  12. Quote
    senthil (subscribed) said May 13, 2011, 5:25 pm:

    I am sharing here with an account by retired major in indian army who oversaw the partition.. he has described in detail, how indian army was in the state of mutiny, and which is the main reason british left india..

    http://prabhjotsworld.blogspot.com/2009/10/india-independence-partition-article-by.html

    The gandhi propoganda may not work in this internet age..

  13. Quote
    Vamsi (subscribed) said May 16, 2011, 9:32 am:

    Senthil
    I dont think he said that the fear of mutiny was the main reason British left India. He said that communalism has spread to the armies as well, British way of managing the army, according to him, is not better than that of Bose’s style of managing the INA, and British has an element of mistrust about the Indian Army and there is a fear of mutiny.

    I am wondering, if I were British PM or say Secy of State for India, ruling a large land mass, undergoing lots of chaos – Congress and Muslim League fighting for Independence since say 1920s, after a very very costly and painful war, a changed political climate in Britain as well, I would simply ask the Governor General of India to prepare all scenarios we should be prepared for. And of course, some of them will be highly confidential that will contain the matters of the nature Lt Gen(Retd) Sinha found.

    How in the hell that undermines Gandhi’s efforts, Congress and ML Struggle, Labor Party’s principle of decolonization well before WW2?

    Of if you consider all Lt Gen(Retd) Sinha’s opinions on – Jinnah, Patel and Nehru as well? Or is it that you dont believe only post-independence Nehru? Or you agree that Gandhi’s will is more powerful than 50,000 strong Punjab Boundary Force? Which again can be concluded that Gandhi could achieve what an army could not!!

    See I dont think any particular person is singularly responsible for Indian independence. From a representative movement to become a force to reckon with, Gandhi’s leadership cannot be ignored.

    I think variety of factors – Gandhi, Congress, ML, Jinnah, Clement Atlee, Cost of WW2, burden of ruling such a large colony, civil unrest etc etc could have lead to the breaking of threshold and achieving independence. Gandhi’s role was during the right time, he did not let the movement go violent and that achieved something amazing of the sorts.

    If you dont believe it – no problem. But some of the greatest results were achieved by people who followed his path – MLK Jr to Nelson Mandela. Or just remember what happened last month – Anna Hazaare… He did not take gun or ask for Indian Army General to launch a coup. He merely sat at Jantar Mantar and the entire country moved. It works.. that is magic of Satyagraha.

  14. Quote
    senthil (subscribed) said May 19, 2011, 12:29 pm:

    Vamsi,

    Thanks for your detailed comment.. the author Gen. Sinha , in his article, had very clearly mentioned that it is the mutiny in indian army and navy, that shook the foundations of british empire in india.. I am quoting relevant paragraphs below..


    The INA trials generated a patriotic surge all over the country and was a big shot in the arm for our freedom struggle. This was followed by the Naval Mutiny in Mumbai and Karachi, Army mutiny in Jabalpur and Air Force mutiny in Karachi. This violently shook the foundations of the British Empire in India.




    The British feared an uprising on the lines of what had happened in 1857. Many British civilians were scattered in different parts of the country. Plan Gondola catered for their initial evacuation to temporary camps in the provinces, at provincial capitals and some selected convenient locations.

    ….
    ….

    The paper written by the Director Military Intelligence had a novel security classification – Top Secret, Not For Indian Eyes. My predecessor a British officer in a hurry to go back home to the UK on demobilization, had handed over the key of the almirah containing classified documents to me without checking the documents. This paper was written in the wake of the INA trials.

    It stated that the Indian officers of the Army could be divided into three categories – those commissioned before 1933 from Sandhurst, the pre-war officers commissioned between 1933 and 1939, and the wartime emergency commissioned officers. The Sandhurst officers were considered more reliable. They were now middle aged with family commitments and did not nurture much grievance as they had been treated well. They were very few, their total number being about thirty. The pre-war, 1933 to 1939 officers had a grievance because their emoluments were not at par with their British counterparts. This disparity was removed during the war but its memory and of some other discriminations still rankled with them. The wartime officers numbering about 12,000 against a total of 500 of the two previous categories, were considered most unreliable.

    You seem to be missing the important links in the history.. the 1857 war of independance, almost thrown away the british east india company from india, and it took them a year to reconquer.. It is after this, they started planting division among hindus and muslims at a socio-politico level.. the INC was formed to create a controlled platform for people to vent their anger, and thus weaning the common people from revolutionaries.. Once they formed INC, it is britishers who supported Muslim League’s demand, to keep hindus and muslims separated..

    The communalisation was further strengthened by Gandhi himself, when he started the Khilafat Movement, which jinnah himself opposed at that time. Muslim nationalism has not kicked off by then..
    The gandhi’s khilafat movement led to Moplah massacre, for which gandhi defended & justified the maruading mopla muslims as god fearing..

    you call this rascal as epitome of ahimsa and satyagraha.. Please read annie besant’s vivid description of moplah massacre..

    Gandhi’s ahimsa and sathyagraha is a perverted concept, just like his sexuality is perverted, as recently exposed in NyTimes..

    Please read more on him at http://psenthilraja.wordpress.com/gandhi-exposed/

  15. Quote
    senthil (subscribed) said May 19, 2011, 12:40 pm:

    Vamsi,

    (My earlier comment is under moderation)

    On anna hazare, please look in to how many participated in his fast? 500? 1000? 10,000? i bet NOT more than that.. it is a media creation creating an illusion as though the whole nation has rose against corruption..

    The truth is that Baba Ramdev’s fast at Delhi Ramlila maidan was attended by more than 1 lakh people, which was blackened by the media.. congress was expecting further escalation of ramdev’s movement.. So they created (through backdoor), a duplicate protest, in the name of anna hazare, and then pretended as though they have given to his demands..

    Its same as the tactic used by britishers, by projecting Gandhi as a leader to fool the people and wean them away from revolutionaries..

    Secondly, this anna hazare episode is a classic example of how gullible are the educated people living in urban areas, easily hoodwinked by media ..

  16. Quote
    senthil (subscribed) said May 19, 2011, 12:45 pm:

    Vamsi,

    The so called independance that we got is actually a transfer of power agreement b/w Britishers and the INC. This transfer of power agreement runs in to several volumes and thousands of pages. I could not locate it any where, and it seems it was a classified secret (even after 60 years of independance)..

    Please let me know whether you are aware of such agreement, and whether you have access to this anywhere else..

    If NOT, can you please let me know your opinion on why this is kept as a secret?

    and why is the government archives on Netaji Subash Chandra bose, kept as secret?

  17. Quote
    Vamsi (subscribed) said May 19, 2011, 4:37 pm:

    On anna hazare, please look in to how many participated in his fast? 500? 1000? 10,000? i bet NOT more than that.. it is a media creation creating an illusion as though the whole nation has rose against corruption..

    Does it matter how many participated in the fast. It is how many across the width and breadth of the country felt that they are being represented by someone and that the central govt moved. Again this is not the central point here. Do you agree to “everything” that your source Lt Gen(Retd) Sinha says. Or only your interpretation that British left India fearing mutiny by armed forces?

  18. Quote
    senthil (subscribed) said May 19, 2011, 6:00 pm:

    Vamsi

    Does it matter how many participated in the fast. It is how many across the width and breadth of the country felt that they are being represented by someone and that the central govt moved

    Being from a software industry, i wish you could approach this from a pragmatic angle.. Ramdev organised a protest against corruption in which more than 1 lakh people participated.. and for anna bazare, not more than 500 participated in his protest..

    More over, baba ramdev raise this awareness in all his yoga campaigns, and in all his sessions, a large number of people participate.. it is estimated that by travelling to length and breadth of India, he has reached to more than 2.5 crore people directly..

    Why is that you dont feel represented by ramdev, whereas you felt so for anna hazare?

    Do you agree to “everything” that your source Lt Gen(Retd) Sinha says. Or only your interpretation that British left India fearing mutiny by armed forces?

    Who else should we agree to? Gen. Sinha has worked during partition, and he says he has seen secret british documents. Is there any reason we should NOT agree to him?

    I have reproduced appropriate sections of that article in my earlier comment which is under moderation..

  19. Quote
    senthil (subscribed) said May 19, 2011, 6:02 pm:

    Vamsi,

    I would like to know your views on the “Transfer of Power” agreement, being kept secret till now.

  20. Quote
    Vamsi (subscribed) said May 19, 2011, 6:50 pm:

    Being from a software industry, i wish you could approach this from a pragmatic angle.

    My approach for anything has nothing to do with software industry.

    Why is that you dont feel represented by ramdev, whereas you felt so for anna hazare?

    That is Baba Ramdev’s problem. Not mine.

    I would like to know your views on the “Transfer of Power” agreement, being kept secret till now.

    Where is your source that such document exists? Or should such document be there to create an independent India and Pakistan? Will a declaration of the independence in the British Parliament not enough?

  21. Quote
    senthil (subscribed) said May 19, 2011, 11:44 pm:

    Vamsi,

    That is Baba Ramdev’s problem. Not mine.

    Its definitely your problem sir.. The wisdom of learned men lies in seeing through and beyond propoganda, and NOT in saying, that it doesnt touch my heart.. What is happening is NOT a love story to touch the heart..

    The truth is that it is media which decides which one to cover and which one to NOT, and strikingly, this media selectiveness is never questioned by any one here.. Should we allow ourselves to dance to the tunes of media?

  22. Quote
    Vamsi (subscribed) said May 20, 2011, 12:18 am:

    Senthil

    I am not really sure why you came to the conclusion that me not accepting Baba Ram Dev is same as me playing to the tunes of media. Also of Baba Ram Dev doesnt impress me as much as Anna Hazaare does, that is Baba Ram Dev’s problem. It is always the case.

    And finally, why are you making it Baba Ram Dev vs Anna Hazaare thing. Both are following Gandhian approach over which you had initial reservations. Both are not radicals or naxals. Personally I think anybody taking the social issues is a great thing. And traditionally spiritual leaders are very diplomatic folks drawing followers from all parties and groups. But this person is using his influence to do something +ve and has a stand on things which is great .

    Again, why is it either/or?

    You like the romanticism of revolution, but do not support Naxals – why? And how they are different than Bose? May be they are better in some respects.
    You dont like Anna Hazaare’s protest, but have no problem with Baba Ram Dev’s

    I am stopping to argue because it is in vain. It is like a chain mail where we wander from one issue to another, weaving conspiracy theories and challenging each other. It is perhaps better if we keep our opinions to ourselves.,

  23. Quote
    senthil (subscribed) said May 20, 2011, 10:16 am:

    Vamsi,

    I think you dont get the core point in our discussion..

    /**

    I am not really sure why you came to the conclusion that me not accepting Baba Ram Dev is same as me playing to the tunes of media.

    **/

    Its plain simple.. if you had met both anna and ramdev personally and say anna had touched your heart, its a direct experience.. but that doesnt happen here..
    What you and me know about both of them are only through Media (Newspaper and TV).. so touching our heart depends on how the media company projects the news or article.. which means, our opinion is decided by those corporate media who decides what and how should an article appear..

    Do you accept this reality?

    /** Again, why is it either/or?

    You dont like Anna Hazaare’s protest, but have no problem with Baba Ram Dev’s
    **/

    Its not about anna vs hazare.. the question is how our opinion about both of them are shaped by a third party.. which means, controlling this third party, any one can manipulate public opinion..

    I dont say anna hazare is bad or ramdev is good… i agree both are genuine.. the issue is baba ramdev is independant in his protest, the crowd he gathered is through his own yoga program across country… whereas on the other hand, anna hazare is being used by vested interests for a political motive..

    Here i am only asking for a rational analysis using scientific temper 🙂

    /**

    You like the romanticism of revolution, but do not support Naxals – why? And how they are different than Bose? May be they are better in some respects.

    **/

    If we are to support Naxals, then we are the first one to be shot by them.. I think, this needs a different thread to debate..

  24. Quote
    senthil (subscribed) said June 3, 2011, 8:02 pm:

    Vamsi,

    One of my earlier comment is still in moderation.. i am reposting it without the links..

    ——————

    Thanks for your detailed comment.. the author Gen. Sinha , in his article, had very clearly mentioned that it is the mutiny in indian army and navy, that shook the foundations of british empire in india.. I am quoting relevant paragraphs below..

    The INA trials generated a patriotic surge all over the country and was a big shot in the arm for our freedom struggle. This was followed by the Naval Mutiny in Mumbai and Karachi, Army mutiny in Jabalpur and Air Force mutiny in Karachi. This violently shook the foundations of the British Empire in India.


    The British feared an uprising on the lines of what had happened in 1857. Many British civilians were scattered in different parts of the country. Plan Gondola catered for their initial evacuation to temporary camps in the provinces, at provincial capitals and some selected convenient locations.

    ….
    ….

    The paper written by the Director Military Intelligence had a novel security classification – Top Secret, Not For Indian Eyes. My predecessor a British officer in a hurry to go back home to the UK on demobilization, had handed over the key of the almirah containing classified documents to me without checking the documents. This paper was written in the wake of the INA trials.

    It stated that the Indian officers of the Army could be divided into three categories – those commissioned before 1933 from Sandhurst, the pre-war officers commissioned between 1933 and 1939, and the wartime emergency commissioned officers. The Sandhurst officers were considered more reliable. They were now middle aged with family commitments and did not nurture much grievance as they had been treated well. They were very few, their total number being about thirty. The pre-war, 1933 to 1939 officers had a grievance because their emoluments were not at par with their British counterparts. This disparity was removed during the war but its memory and of some other discriminations still rankled with them. The wartime officers numbering about 12,000 against a total of 500 of the two previous categories, were considered most unreliable.

    You seem to be missing the important links in the history.. the 1857 war of independance, almost thrown away the british east india company from india, and it took them a year to reconquer.. It is after this, they started planting division among hindus and muslims at a socio-politico level.. the INC was formed to create a controlled platform for people to vent their anger, and thus weaning the common people from revolutionaries.. Once they formed INC, it is britishers who supported Muslim League’s demand, to keep hindus and muslims separated..

    The communalisation was further strengthened by Gandhi himself, when he started the Khilafat Movement, which jinnah himself opposed at that time. Muslim nationalism has not kicked off by then..
    The gandhi’s khilafat movement led to Moplah massacre, for which gandhi defended & justified the maruading mopla muslims as god fearing..

    you call this rascal as epitome of ahimsa and satyagraha.. Please read annie besant’s vivid description of moplah massacre..

    Gandhi’s ahimsa and sathyagraha is a perverted concept, just like his sexuality is perverted, as recently exposed in NyTimes..

  25. Quote
    senthil (subscribed) said June 3, 2011, 8:16 pm:

    Vamsi,

    On the anna hazare protest vs baba ramdev’s protest, i would like to quote the following news, that deals with fundamentals of organising a protest..

    http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india/Rs-18-crore-already-pumped-into-Baba-Ramdevs-stir-Report/articleshow/8712053.cms

    This gives us an idea on the ground work that is needed to organise nationwide mass protest.. and we can easily guess from anna hazare’s protest that it is a media hype, to project soft alternate face to counter baba ramdev.. as expected, anna hazare failed and based on his recent interview, it seems he was fooled by persons surrounding him..

    Now the government is panicked on baba ramdev’s fast.. bcoz, of his mass following, and more than 1 lakh people participate with him on his fast.. Also as a yoga guru, he can sustain his fast for any number of months (NOT just days), and there are techniques in yoga for that.. i have personally seen a yoga master here, living just with water for three months..

  26. Quote
    senthil (subscribed) said June 7, 2011, 11:00 pm:

    Vamsi,

    The recent episodes, had very well proved, what the government will do with some one who cannot be bullied.. As i said earlier, anna has been manipulated earlier, and now he himself is saying govt cheated him.. Now, he joining baba ramdev’s protest, congress takes a different attitude.. No more media hypes around him now a days.. his utility value is over..

    Forming opinions based on getting impressed by media is NOT a scientific temper.. It is looking beyond these media hypes..

  27. Quote
    senthil (subscribed) said June 10, 2011, 10:55 am:

    An article in telegraph, comparing anna hazare and baba’s protests.. the author says they both appeal to two distict classes.. it seems quite true..

    http://www.telegraphindia.com/1110610/jsp/opinion/story_14094754.jsp

  28. Quote
    senthil (subscribed) said April 15, 2012, 6:15 pm:

    Contrary to the myths that caste system divided india, i had written with a historical documentary reference, on how the hindu society was integrated, at multiple dimensions, and multiple planes..

    http://psenthilraja.wordpress.com/2012/04/07/how-our-hindu-society-was-integrated-a-historical-reference

    For temporarily, pls forget the english term caste… in turn, Use the words, Jathi, kulam and gothram, while discussing our society.. Vocabulary represent a particular society, and indian society has to be understood in indic vocabulary..

    After the extensive discussion in this post long back, i had gathered so much of information about our societal setup, and i had almost decoded the very basis of our jathi setup.. Let me present those things when suitable opportunity arises..

  29. Quote
    senthil (subscribed) said April 15, 2012, 6:20 pm:

    Another interesting thing we lost by ignoring the caste system is the arts and skills associated with numerous professions that existed in india..

    The following second look article describes how indian ship building, once the biggest in the world, was systematically destroyed by britishers.. The caste that did this job also perished..

    http://2ndlook.wordpress.com/2012/04/14/death-of-indian-shipbuilding/#wpl-likebox

    Another instance, i can quote is the extinction of the caste which practiced “Plastic Surgery”.. The british doctors posted in East india Company, tried to copy that unsuccessfully for around 80 years.. only later, they were able to replicate the process in london, which became the foundation for modern day plastic surgery.. in the mean time, they destroyed the source back in india.. today we dont have traces of that caste..

    Any one want proof for this ??

  30. Quote
    senthil (subscribed) said May 1, 2012, 10:59 am:

    For those who still believe, that British actually did good to india.. the following link, dispelling all those myths, details how brutal were the british on their colonial subjects.. the supression of kenyan revolt, even as recent as 1950’s is a best example of their barbaricity.. the artificially manufactured famine of bengal is another brutal assault on our native people..

    http://www.thehindu.com/opinion/op-ed/article3367735.ece?css=print

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