The Many Ills of India Inc
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I had this desperate urge to write a short story this week. I even brokered a deal with you, my dear reader – that shafts of fiction will radiate from my (not so puissant) pen this time. If only this were a grammar school, I could have blamed it all on my pet: I wrote a story, but the dog ate it. But, this is not school & I don’t have a dog. So, I’m laying it all on the paper boy. Yes, I was so prostrated with grief that I couldn’t bring myself to write a story.
What monkey-business did the paper boy indulge in, you ask. Well, he launched his projectile in a trajectory that ended with a dull “plop” on my nose. He timed it to the exact second of my opening the door, Your Honor. It set my already askew spectacles askewer & out slithered the “Job Opportunities” section. When I quickly skimmed thru that, it so outraged me that I had to read it fully in my toilet. The listings were that crappy.
I’m considered more bellicose than the norm, but this is uncalled for. My ire is always on tap. It doesn’t wait for a cue from the Media: “Ooh, there’s so much media coverage & frenzy about this issue. Now, let me get totally pissed about it for like, 3 days!” I get all het up, because India is the “Land of Probable Causes”.
Before you could say “Equal Employment Opportunity”, I could have shown you 5 Job Listings that specified the Age Limit of the applicant. “Are you a mid-level Engineer? Is your age a Prime Number between 25 and 35?”. “Looking for a Plant Manager below 40 years!” Jesus Christ. What’s this – a Job Listing or a Dating Site? Many people put up with this balderdash & supply their Date of Birth in their resume in India.
If you think its perfectly legitimate for all/most employers to screen people based on their age – say after me: “Age Discrimination is Evil & Stupid”. Filtering by age has nothing to do with performance. It has everything to do with “Ye Olde Fashioned Mentality”, where your boss is always older than you. Well, times have changed. And unless you are Rip Van Winkle, you know that these days performance matters more than length of tenure.
Before you could say “Women’s Emancipation”, I could have shown you the Job Listing from Finolex Pipes (“The Hindu” Jan 9th 2008 “Opportunities” – Page 7). “Ideal Candidate for a Finance Director! He will be a Chartered Accountant! He will have 20 years of experience! He, He, He!” Remind me never to buy their blasted pipes – They are probably as clogged & constipated as them. I felt indescribably depressed. Faintly, I heard my neighbor screaming at her child to get ready for school. Clearly, I could hear the child setup an inhuman squeal of protest.
Though the Listing didn’t expressly prohibit women from applying, my neck prickled with its subliminal message. Women don’t really become accountants, right? Even if they do, they won’t have 20 years of experience – Ha, Ha! And in the off-chance that there is such a mythical creature – We really can’t hire her as a Director, right? Her place is in the kitchen – Right? Wrong on all counts, you antediluvian dingbat. Women walk on space, run their countries and act as able stewards of their companies. They are as good and as bad as men.
Yes, discrimination against women in the work-place has come down. But like an ugly stain of red wine on white lace, its difficult to remove. If you are the kind that argues that “He” is a general purpose term & can be used in the place of “She” – Congratulations, you’ve been brain-washed to become Gender Insensitive. Civilized people use the neutral “S/He” – Anything less is highly disrespectful to women. Only Neanderthals & Male Chauvinists think women are a subset of men. You see, we are not the floating rib of Adam. If you are a woman & you think I’m over-reacting: God help us. Where’s Gloria Steinem when you need her?
Implied or otherwise, discrimination is dumb. Why would you meaninglessly restrict your pool of eligible candidates? It can land you & your company in a legal tangle in the developed countries. Unfortunately, human rights boarded a plane to India, but the flight was canceled due to inclement weather.
I wish enough Indians would take their cudgels to this, this blot, discrimination. But that’s when pigs fly. When all hell freezes over. Till then, we’ll be spewing brim-stone at the Australian Cricket Team. They, like, insulted our boys Down Under – Didn’t they?
Priya, I share your outrage and anguish. Some old age companies have to be re-brainwashed. Did you encounter anything like this in IT Industry. I know few instances where women have to prove extra hard that they have it in them where as men in those groups are taken for granted that they will get the job done. If we throw in the extra free responsibilities we presume that woman can take up in home like dishes, cleaning and other kitcheny stuff, which they ‘love’ to do….it must be hell tough… Meanwhile we men have to keep up with the cricket scores (and NFL too we Americana junta)…, West Asia peace, world economy and all other ‘important’ affairs.
And the super hero who saved the NRIs izzat on New Year Eve told press that they should not have come on the road on such days….yes…they should come on a dull Jan 3rd evening for a breezy walk….where they will probably be raped even….so much for the super hero’s noble act….(I appreciate his courage…I could not digest his principles on when woman should be out.)
Interesting post Priya. You have expressed your anguish well as Vamsi has observed.
I wrote about discrimination in Corporate India 1.5 years ago
http://www.sastwingees.org/2006/05/10/discrimination-rampant-in-the-corporate-world-in-india/
I guess things haven’t changed much since then.
Vamsi – Thanks for your comment.
Yes, sad to say – I’ve heard senior people in the IT industry say – “Let’s hire a man. Women won’t see eye to eye with us”. That’s their way of hiding behind their prejudices. I heard this in 2007.
Blaming the victim for rape & molestation is still the done thing in India. Even in the IT industry, some men in their 20s still say, “If women dressed modestly, men would behave themselves”. Disgustingly enough, some women agree. That’s how badly brain-washed they are. And in their opinion, men are beasts with no impulse control.
Sukumar – Thanks for your comment & the link. A well written post. My blood boils as I read it.
Priya,
I hear you loud and clear.
As Sukumar has mentioned, it is sad to see that not much has changed in the last few years. I would have expected more from Corporate India especially with globalization and more awareness regarding how business ought to be conducted in the 21st century.
Looks like something’s never change and even when it does, it happens at snails pace.
When I was looking at potential candidates for our office in India, I was surprised to see the Birth Date in the resume (or CV as it is called in India
. I understood why, but could never justify it in my own mind.
Do you see any difference between multi-national companies and home-grown ones? How about by industry sector? Is the media even aware of this kind of discrimination and has there been any publicity given to this obvious injustice? Like you have mentioned any company would be eliminating a large talent pool by following this practice.
This will certainly play a big part in our decision to move to India.
Perhaps we should create a website and post such ads to start black-listing such companies!!
I have also heard that IT companies are hesitant to hire candidates with 3-7 years of experience because such candidates are on the constant lookout for greener “moolah” pastures. The fresh-out-of-college candidates are in it for the experience and the ones with greater than 7 years are looking for stability and hence would stay with a company for at least a few years as opposed to a few months. Do you give any credence to this theory?
Regards,
Ganesh
Ganesh – Thanks for your comment.
I was horrified to see “Marital Status” in the CV when I went for In-Campus hiring. A photo of the candidate is also provided!
Certainly, MNCs behave in a more civilized manner. A girl I know – she’s legally separated from her busband – applied for a job. A home-grown company rejected her – get a load of this – ONLY because of she was separated. They even had the nerve to tell her this. Whereas, Cognizant interviewed her & rolled out her offer letter – without a single question about her Marital Status.
The Media now has plenty of awareness about gender discrimination. But, there isn’t much awareness about age discrimination & other kinds.
Recently, the Indian Judiciary severely beat up the Electricity Board for firing an employee who became blind – he lost his vision because of an accident on the job. The judges – I’m happy to say – told the EB that they were misguided & had to reinstate the now-differently-abled employee immediately.
I think IT companies would give an arm & a leg to hire people with 3 to 7 years of exp. That’s where the biggest perceived gap is. Discrimination begins for people with > 15 years of experience.
Nice post Priya….
It took some time for me to understand you verbiage
,
I guess somehow Indians have got used to Dummy Experiences that it has become a part of their Lifestyle….How on earth can we expect and Engineer with 20years experience under 40….It is so dumb and ridiculous to see such ads…
I came across another which asks for CA with alleast 15 years exp between 37 and 40…….
Karthik – Thanks for your comment.
Yes, some ads are plainly beyond the realms of possibility
Some people I know did their CA along with their B.Com – So, by the time they were 21 or 22, they were CAs. So, I think there could be CAs with 15 years of experience in the 37 – 40 band.
I’m against specifyinging any & all age or gender limits, since that’s discriminatory. If someone wants a CA with 15 years of experience, they should just say that. Whether they are 37 or 47 need not & should not influence hiring.
Priya,
You have only addressed the tip of the iceberg. what happens after you get a job? You think women are treated equally. Even in software industry, I think they have very few women friendly policies. That is why it is so hard for people to rise up the corporate ladder. I have known PLs who don’t want women in development projects because they cannot work late and it is an overhead to ensure their safety.
What most companies understand by equality is, “we expect you to be a man”. Only when that changes we can truly claim that any country or industry does not discriminate.
Archana – Thanks for your comment.
I did not intend to write a post that covers all aspects of gender discrimination. That would become a 500 page book, instead of a 2 page post. How women fare in the work-place once they are hired – that’s a different, though related topic.
I didn’t want to restrict myself to gender discimination, either. At least, it shows some signs of abating. There’s some remorse in people’s minds about gender discrimination & at least the MNCs are making the right noises. Ageism is rampant & people don’t even realize why that’s evil.
Now, why do companies expect women to be a man? That’s a good question. Indians tend to micro-manage a person’s approach, instead of focussing on the results. How does it matter how many hours a person works? What matters is what s/he accomplishes.
The bigger question though is – What IS accomplishment? Fixing 10 more bugs in system testing? Or, promoting a better understanding in the team so that 5 of those bugs are avoided while developing the application? The harmony & understanding that women promote – most managers are blind to that as well.
We all have to struggle thru this & fight this system, so that the next generation can have it a little easier.
Priya /Archana
I totally with you guys..I am sure the PL’s are wrong if they dont want ladies to work late..this does not show the lady’s incompetency but only clealrs shows the PL’s failure in PM as he is not able to extract the alloted work within stipulated hours (say 8hrs /day)…
But on the contrary i dont agree on security part Archana..I mean it is still not safe for girls to stay late..I dont think India is safe enough for women after 10 pm…..as we keep hearing horror stories day in and out….so if its a genuine cause of worry i feel the boss it right then….
But bias double edged sword again…I know of girls in old company who go promoted just because they were girls (double promotion in some cases)..and some girls were not promoted (inspite of excellant performances) as they were girls….so I feel it depends on ur boss type too…
Karthik – Thanks.
Yes, the company should take reasonable measures to protect its employees – female or male. But, if managers are reluctant to take women in their projects – because they think women need more protection – then, they are simply using it as an excuse for their male chauvinism. Women fly fighter planes. How brave a woman or man is depends on the individual.
What will they say next? Refuse to take someone with migraines because the project is stressful – and they can’t afford the holidays that the person MIGHT take? This is the essence of discrimination: pre-judging a person based on some outdated mental model. Without giving the person a chance.
About women getting promoted because they are a little pretty – Who said only men drool over pretty faces? Haven’t you seen handsome men getting preferential treatment? Women are as bad as men when it comes to mooning over good looks. I remember this guy in the University. Whatever inanity he uttered, the young female lecturer fluttered her eyelashes & he aced his internals. But this discussion is more in line with the “Beauty Premium” post of Sukumar
Thought provoking post priya!
But sometimes discrimination is all about choices isnt it ? Yeah they might be wrong at that but then filtering at level one makes task easier, ofcourse not at the rate of filtering potential candidates. You have probably sparked a thought and i guess i must start atleast think about whats going on, I m so so ignorant of everything in life in general {read:selfish} unless it happens to me. It seems like hypocrisy is something i only hate when i m at the receiving end. [There i go again talking useless crap in this comments section]
Anyways Male chauvinism is something that has not died with all the talk about women’s lib and its something that is rooted from birth and will take more than just time to fade away , Sometime I see myself also involved in being chauvinistic and then i go reminding myself like “dude ! what are you thinking?”, you know its good versus evil thing hehe
Looking at this post again looks like you are really frustrated with this shit, I really don’t know how it feels like to be a woman so i have sort of no idea
Jassi – Thanks for your comment.
Men who want to be egalitarian are seldom chauvinistic. From what you say, I don’t think you’ll ever be a chauvinist. You are just extra careful – and that’s commendable.
Discrimination affects everyone involved. As you rightly said, it makes the *task* easier for the person that does the actual hiring. Instead of using meaningful criteria to filter the candidates, the hiring manager can behave like a lower division clerk, filter by age or gender – thereby reducing the # of candidates to be interviewed.
The company wants the hiring manager to select the best candidates for the job – but that won’t be accomplished by such filtering.
Ah, I’m not easily subjugated. Attempts at suppression make me very aggressive & single-minded, so people generally leave me alone. My grief is at what the less aggressive people have to go thru.
A girl I know took a break of 5 years to take care of her kids. Now, she’s finding it extremely difficult to even get an interview. She’s very talented & hard-working – but no one wants to hire her because of “fitment” issues. Now, that’s the ugly under-belly of discrimination.
I would go with archana’s comment.. If women has to be treated equally, they have to become man..
In my project, we had women colleagues.. and we were so friendly, that we would ask the women colleagues to leave earlier, in most of the times.. its not about discriminiation.. its one form of goodwill and care, that a male colleague shows towards women.. I dont generalise this, to all.. there are cases as you had described… But again, that cannot be a generalisation too.. every nation has a culture, and there are ups and downs based on that.. there is no such thing called idealistic world..
My opinion on this is, that good will and care towards one another is what required in this society.. And this discrimination is partly, depend on how a women takes it..
Btw, i am fed up of this discrimination phobia.. Please show me, any one country, which does not have any discrimination at all?
Why there is no women president, for all these 400 years of america’s history.. While in asia, particularly southasia, there were a dozen women presidents, prime minister and chief ministers. Does it mean america is more discriminatory than india?
Why the ratio of male:female CEO’s in fortune 500 companies of america, highly tilting towards men? Only few women, get the exposure in such high positions? (I would request you to do a post on this)
Why most of the corporates are owned by Men in US & UK?
Why actresses are paid less than the actors in the Hollywood? (ofcourse, in bollywood too)
Why only women are employed for caberae dances and for strip dances in america?
Why women are not allowed to be pastors or to become Pope?
Why women are not allowed to be commanders in US army?
There is a tendency, where one feels it fashionable to list out ills of India.. There are positives too… But, in most times we always speak about ills than positives.. probably, its more of a habit than our intention..
In Indian companies, both MNC’s and local, women receives familial support in their work environment. (Ofcourse, there are exceptions.) My present neighbour worked in a Medical Transcription company, and she told, that in the 9 years of her experience, her team was more or less like a family… This type of moral support is a positive feature of India Inc.
I would like to highlight one distinct aspect of India. In India, family is the basic independent unit, and not an individual. Whereas, its not the case in America.
I am an individual, but more part of my family. I compromise on many personal wishes for the sake of my family. And so is the case with my parents. They could not live without their children.
Most of indian parents, will lose interest in life, the moment, they lose their family. And this is where, we tend to neglect or ignore, our unique aspect.
And that’s why, our corporates has been designing new methods to retain couples by offering them flexible projects. And i feel, (although i am not sure), its not the case in US.
In India, most (it may be 99%) of the women prefer family interests more than their career. Unless there is any fissure in family relations, in a normal happy family, the women always come forward to adjust to her husband’s career. (best example is infosys chief’s life).
I found this article by Indra Nooyi few months before. This has a different view from your posts.
Indra Nooyi’s story
So, i feel, as long as we look through the prism of western benchmarks, we will find only ills in us, and good in them.
Senthil – Who is complaining about the concern shown by male colleagues towards women? Please read my post properly. When teams refuse to recruit women because “they may not see eye to eye with them” – where’s the “concern” there? Do not twist what is said, just because you find it unpalatable.
India is a free country. I have every right to point out the flaws. Too many people are glossing over the flaws because there’s a false notion that it is “unpatriotic” to do so. Too many people are insecure about “Western” influences. I have no such inhibitions.
You should get your facts straight. There are male exotic (cabaret, you want to call it) dancers in most Western countries. That includes strippers. Women can fight in the front-lines in many Western countries. Not all Hollywood women actors get paid less than the men – again, you should do some research. Julia Roberts, Angelina Jolie or Reese Witherspoon get paid hand over fist, more than most male actors.
Why would you convert every critique on India, to a comparison between India & the US? You should try living in the Western countries to get a feel for how much more egalitarian those societies are. In the Western countries, discrimination on gender, marital status or age is relatively very, very less – almost non-existent. Discrimination on race is still there, though considerably less than what one might encounter in India.
So, in your mind, discrimination in India is OK because there’s discrimination everywhere? That’s too funny. Let’s see what you say about discrimination if & when you land in the Bible belt of the US. As a non-White, non-Christian – You’ll be at the receiving end, if you get close to a redneck. Its very easy to be “tired of the discrimination phobia” when you are part of the top-dog majority – Male, Hindu in India.
Yes, South Asia has a few more Presidents. How wonderful. The fact that every single woman who rose to the top like this was highly politically connected seems to escape your attention. So, according to you, all’s well in India regarding the treatment of women! That’s ridiculous to say the least.
99% of women prefer family interests?? Where in the blazes did you get this number? You are not a woman, you haven’t consulted any survey & you haven’t spoken to a huge sample. You are not qualified to make such sweeping statements. Your remarks on how women come forward to adjust to their husband’s career is anachronistic, unreal & more like wishful thinking. I request you to do a *proper survey* & do a post on this.
Wonderfully written, Priya. I fully concur with your views.
Priya,
I think, you have mis-stated on actor’s and actresses salaries. As per the data available in the net, the highest paid actor tom cruise earns $31 million a year, while the highest paid actress “Jennifer Aniston” earns only $18.5 million.
http://www.wisegeek.com/who-are-the-worlds-highest-paid-actors.htm
http://moneycentral.msn.com/content/invest/forbes/P147872.asp
I hope, the above data speaks the rest.. I am really surprised, how you have stated that the actresses earn more than actors. If there is any data on your side, please provide that. And again, you owe an explanation, on this utter gender discrimination in Hollywood, where the actress get only half of what actors get.
Secondly, i did not say, you are wrong. What you have said is happening in India. There are bosses, who use their authority to seduce their female PA’s by all means, which i have heard directly from some persons. But at the same time, there are lot of companies, which really care for their female employees.
But, we cannot generalise everything for the whole nation.. That’s what i would like to highlight.. There are both plus and minus.. but how we deal with minus is debatable. I feel, we should not highlight minuses by eclipsing plus. That would create only depression and negativistic tendency.
I really dont know about male dancers.. I will accept my fault here..
The following link displays crime statistics in US from 1960.
http://www.disastercenter.com/crime/uscrime.htm
I will only take the crime against women from the above statistics.
The forcible rape reported in the last few years were listed below.
2001 – 90,863
2002 – 95,235
2003 – 93,883
2004 – 95,089
2005 – 94,347
2006 – 92,455
The peak of the rape crimes happened in 1993, where 106,010 Forcible rapes were reported.
Probably, the following fbi website will be additional references..
http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/05cius/offenses/violent_crime/forcible_rape.html
Let me provide you the statistics on India as well..
http://nrcw.nic.in/statistics%20tables/Incidence%20of%20Crimes%20Against%20Women.htm
As per the above statistics, the total rape cases reported are given below.
2000 – 16496
2001 – 16075
2002 – 16373
Let me show you how the newspaper reported this..
The Hindu:
http://www.hinduonnet.com/mag/2002/09/01/stories/2002090100020400.htm
The mode they reported gives a picture, as though all women in india were affected.. This is not a healthy reporting, on their part.. and arent we influenced by their reporting?
TimesofIndia:
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/articleshow/1044133.cms
And the following link on nytimes reporting on Newyork crime against women.. they did not overreact.. they have reported in a positive way, that these crimes occur inspite of NY’s stronger laws to protect women..
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/06/18/opinion/nyregionopinions/18WEossorio.html
And just a google, will show you lot of sites stating crimes statistics in india, while only few have that statistics on US… Why is this, while the crime ratio to population is infact more in US than India..
Would like to know your views on the above statistics..
I hope, plain rejection of all these, will not happen..
Why is that we find the statistics on US as unimportant, while any statistics on India generates so much of negativistic tendency in the educated Indians, resulting in trashing india whereever possible..
/** Discrimination on race is still there, though considerably less than what one might encounter in India. **/
Although this very statement is debatable, does it mean, we can praise US and ridicule india by this comparison.
Is it that because, US has less racial abuse than india, they are good guys and we are bad guys?
For that i dont accuse them either.. Infact, in US, they have provided the highest order of individual freedom and freedom of expression.
But the fact, that they have all these racial abuses, inspite of their stringent laws, is a sign, that we are faring better than them, with corrupt politicians, and beurocrats, without effective laws.. this is because of our inherent social strength where, thousands of castes co-existed together for thousands of years, thus imbibing the sense of inclusiveness and tolerance.. But this fact was never accepted by the elite indians, who go by the newspaper statistics.
/** The fact that every single woman who rose to the top like this was highly politically connected seems to escape your attention. ***/
I feel, except for few like Indira gandhi, sheik hasina, bhutto and the gandhi family, all others rose from the ground.. jayalalitha, mamta banergee, mayawati, uma bharathi… to megawathi of indonesia, and the first PM of srilanka, all came by their own efforts..
Ok.. we can also view this like this.. atleast politically connected women were able to come up, and general public accepted them in india and other south east asia.. and it reflects how women are encouraged in that political family..
there were lot of politically connected women in US.. why are they not able to come up.. It took 400 years for the US society to accept condolina rice, and Hillary Clinton..
Why we are not accepting this inherent strength of our indic society (including whole southasia).. Infact, in india, the women exerted extreme power, like the party males falling in their feet.. (earlier jayalalitha did this, and now mayawatii )
/*** So, according to you, all’s well in India regarding the treatment of women! ***/
There is no ideal society in this world. What i would say is women are far well off in india, than in most other nations.. they may not enjoy total freedom as in US, but they are not tortured or suppressed here. There are exceptions.. and considering such huge populations, the number of such exceptions may be high.. But that should not be generalisation..
So in this regard i would raise another question.. “Do you feel, most of the women are suppressed and suffering in india?”
I havent got answers for the following questions:
Why most of the corporates are owned by Men in US & UK?
Why women are not allowed to be pastors or to become Pope?
Why women are not allowed to be commanders in US army?
Why the ratio of male:female CEO’s in fortune 500 companies of america, highly tilting towards men?
Also, your comment on Indra Nooyi’s article. (Considering, she rose to one of the most powerful position, and being the most successful women )
Indra Nooyi’s story
I would like to know your views on her following statement….
“You can walk away from the fact that you’re a corporate executive, but you can’t walk away from the fact that you are a mom. In terms of being a mother and a corporate executive, the role of mom comes first.”
Senthil – Wonder what basis you have to debate that US has more discrimination than India. You have neither lived nor worked there for any extended period. You are clutching at straws without any basis. Racial problems these days in the US is nothing, if you consider the horrible way in which Dalits are treated in Indian villages.
I agree that things in India are improving – that includes more tolerance. But you can’t meaninglessly heap blame on the developed nations, just so you can feel better about India. That’s ridiculous & knee-jerk to say the least. And you can’t pretend that India has always been hunky-dory. Don’t white-wash the past! Unless we are truthful about what we did, we can’t & won’t improve.
People in the US talk openly about problems. They don’t make it a habit of sweeping problems under the carpet & claiming from the rooftops that they are inclusive. Their honesty doesn’t make them worse than us. There is no heroism in being dishonest about what we are. No one will believe us.
Have you heard about “Equal Employment Opportunities Commission” in the US? Looks like you haven’t! Unlike India, laws are actually implemented in the developed countries. That’s mainly because people monitor the system themselves & sue the offending organization.
How exactly is India faring better than the US in racial tolerance? Again, you have zero data & no personal experience. Just in New York City, people from 173 countries live. And these are people from different ethnic groups. In India, Kannadigas are marginally different – 0.05%? – from the Tamilians. They are at each other’s throats. Assam, Mizoram – they all want to secede. Christians are burnt alive in Orissa. After the massacre of Muslims in Gujarat, the Hindus want us to forget the violence of 2002. Are we even talking about the same country? Things may be improving, but we still have miles to go.
Do you have any data other than wishful thinking to support this “Utopian India”? Most of us go by respected newspapers & data, you seem to go by day-dreams & un-authenticated reports. Your epistemology begs retooling.
What you are is in complete denial.
Meenaks – Thanks for your comment.
Senthil – Regarding Female Actor’s salaries: You have again twisted what I said. Try arguing your point of view without twisting, if you truly believe what you say has merit. Feel free to twist what I say, if you realize your argument has no leg to stand on.
Let me repeat what I said for your benefit: There are many female actors who get paid a lot more than most male actors. Julia Roberts gets paid a lot more than most seasoned male actors, for e.g. Try answering this question: How many female-oriented films are shot in India? Where the woman is the central character? There are many such movies made in the developed nations. This is slowly happening in India, but still not enough.
Aren’t you sweet & innocent to believe the Indian statistics on rape? You see, we “elite” read the newspapers AND listen to various commentaries on that data to form our opinion. We don’t “use” the data to suit our needs. Every single Victim’s Rights groups have questioned the data on rape in India – because so much crime goes unreported because of stigma. But I forget: You are the guy that’s “tired of discrimination phobia”. So, you probably don’t read what these rights groups have to say. Or, you don’t care.
I’m glad you agree that women in the US & developed countries fare better than Indian women. We agree on something finally. Yes, Indian women are better off when compared to other women in many developing nations. If you read my post again, you can see that I say that things are improving in India – especially in the MNCs. But, we still are not where we should be. There’s more work to be done.
In the developed nations, the “glass ceiling” which prevents women from progressing is at the HIGHEST levels. This means, CXO levels, Presidents etc. Before Rice, we had Madeline Albright – don’t forget that. Scandinavian nations fare better than most – they have a 60% representation of women in their parliament. In countries like India, this “glass ceiling” is present at the Senior Manager/Director level in the MNCs. And much lower in the other companies! You are the one fond of statistics – so, tell me: 1 Jayalalitha compensates for 10 million (just pick a huge number) women who stagnate? You do the math.
Because of this glass ceiling in the developed nations, you’ll find fewer women as CEOs, Commanders etc. This answers your question. But in India, women still have to fight for the right to pilot aircrafts in the army! Or, to fight in the front-lines. We are talking about entry-level to project leader level positions where discrimination starts. You tell me which is worse. Which affects more women? What is more pernicious?
Regarding the pope – that’s a laughable question. Roman Catholicism is a world religion. How is that a Western problem? So, you have some data to show that Indian Roman Catholics want a woman to be a pope? What’s “western” about a world religion? What’s even more ridiculous about your question is this: Can a woman head the Shankara Matt at Kanchipuram, Shringeri or Puri? Hell, no! At least, women are getting ordained as priests in the Western countries. That very question HASN’T EVEN BEEN ASKED about the Shankara Matt so far. Your “Holier than the West” idea has a serious problem you see.
On Nooyi – Stop cherry-picking. That’s 1 woman’s opinion – where does your 99% come from? That’s my question. Plus, Nooyi is the head honcho! She has clearly indicated what her priority is – not by her words, but by her action. You said 99% of women would rather follow their husbands around. That’s what this male chauvinistic society forces them to do. That’s not the same as them wanting to do that. Many of them don’t even know they have a choice.
I have answered all your questions. Now, answer my questions with reliable data. If you can.
Senthil – And, you haven’t said anything about ageism! Rampant ageism in India & companies openly say that they won’t hire anyone over 40! Try saying that in the developed nations & you’ll be sued.
I have a feeling that you restrict your comments to gender, simply because that’s where things are improving in India. I’ve already mentioned that things are getting better for women in the post – plus, I’ve mentioned that in some comments also.
You haven’t said anything about the raw deal gays get in India! They have to be in the closet. They are severely discriminated. Not to mention all the insensitive jokes about the trans-gendered people. Do you know that these people can get legally married in some developed nations? And that they are permitted to adopt children in a few countries? And do you know that trans-gendered people in India have mostly 2 career choices – beggars or prostitutes?
I can say many positive things about India if my post was about ancient architecture, food, arts & crafts, philosophy etc etc – but my post is about a blot, discrimination. I’m not being harsh on India. What’s happening – the ground level reality – is harsh. There’s nothing wrong in trying to improve. No shame in that. Only pride in accepting problems.
Senthil….
All female leaders have some level of influence on the mentos…They have not come up on basis of merit.Except Mamta Banerjee all the others have had poweful “mentors” .
I am sure you have heard the story of Uma Bharathi and Govindacharya ..its no fiction they were living together..same is the case with Mayawathi and Kanshi Ram ..( they were both spouces equivalent)…. and Megawati was the daughter of Sukarno(first president of Indonesia..and everyone does know the story of JJ…so I cannot but agree with Priya that gender bias exisits in South Asia…
Senthil & Priya,
Interesting discussion. Senthil, PK Karthik is right. some of the facts you quote about women in power are wrong – Megawati is Sukarno’s daughter, Sirimavo bandaranaike is from the famous bandaranaike family. Jayalalitha and Maywati are proteges of powerful political people (MGR and Kanshi Ram). I would argue that given that politics in India is largely non-merit based, it is going to be close to impossible for a non-politically-connected woman to come to power entirely through merit. Whereas in western countries it is within the realm of possibility.
Overall, i want to say this one thing – identifying and discussing issues and problems in our country is very important for us all to learn from our past mistakes and become better. I would argue that this is more patriotic, than spending reams of ink and paper on how glorious everything was in the Vedic age or more patriotic than deluding ourselves into believing that everything in India is hunky dory and proceeding to do all the wrong things.
Karthik & Sukumar – Thanks for your comments. There are many fallacies in Senthil’s comments that I missed the one about Megawati, Sirimavo, Mayawati etc
Senthil – What’s with this non-stop request of “always state the positives first, then say a few negatives if you must”? Is it so hard to digest the negatives, that it should be given as a sugar-coated pill?
Most people will have a problem with the negatives high-lighted – only when a stray incident is exaggerated & generalized. What I’m stating is a general, all-round, deep-rooted malaise. All the moaning about “don’t high-light the negatives” for this issue simply means – people don’t want to face the bitter truth.
What you on the other hand have done is, cherry-picked 1 or 2 incidents & generalized that. Now, that’s where the fault is. That’s the essence of the “Confirmation Bias” that you seem to suffer from.
karthick.. I do not deny gender bias.. but, generalising everything is not fair, to my opinion. And that’s why, i have stated with clear cut statistics.
US is most developed nation, numero 1, with first class facilities, high level of life style. And yet, there have been 90,000 rape cases reported, in that highly educated society. Why this fact is ignored repeatedly in this discussion, and this really amuses me.
I am not saying India was the land of paradise. I had stated twice in my comments that what priya had stated in this article do exists in india. There is no doubt in that.
But, why are we hesitating to accept that 90 thousand rapes occured in US, and why dont we see that as a social problem faced by US and why dont we have a comparitive study so that why so much crimes happen in that educated society, in a population one third of us, while in India, we have comparatively less such crimes, from a population that was not as educated as the US citizens.
I think, this discussion would be endless, unless we understand the approach that we take on dealing with issues.
Sukumar,
You have a valid point on women politicians. I accept the views of karthick too. But, what do we mean by merit here?
The US political structure, and Indian Political structure is entirely different. I am not talking about patriotism. Just a plain analysis of how a politician will behave, in a typical political environment.
JJ had excellent administration skills, a proficient english knowledge, but so far lacked maturity. (i dont know if she still has that). Suppose, if she had been in US political structure for all these years, she would have been responded as per to that environment. Her skills are best matched to that political structure.
However, in Tamilnadu, she has to live in an era of dravidian culture, and so she has to go through all those uneasy circumstances.
Ok. all that she did while in power was a different thing. I just wanted to mention that while she as an ordinary actor, was able to compete with male counterparts, capture the party, and the laksh of party members accept her as leader, and win the election.
Suppose, if the whole society was biased to women and let us say if all males believe in “I wont work under women”, or “I wont vote to elect a woman”, will she ever able to rule Tamil nadu.
Similarly the case for other women politicians.. Regardless of whether they are connected to political class or not, is it not the acceptance of public, the main factor for them to rise in a democratic process.
I feel, its an inherent strength of our society right from the past, where there were Jhansi Rani’s and Velu Nachiars under whom, the male fighters fought. There were no male chauvinism..
If we analyse psychologically, each male is conditioned in his family, where he receives all support from his mother & sisters. That sensitive bonding, enables him to accept a female leader too.
(Again, i am not talking of patriotism. But, a fair understanding of our society..)
Senthil – You have side-stepped my point on how every human rights organization in the world is screaming from the roof-tops about how rape in India is grossly under-reported. For you see, India blames the victims for the rape & there’s so much stigma – so, I had clearly mentioned that most rapes never get reported.
Developed nations simply define rape very differently – husbands can’t force their wives to have sex with them, for one. Strippers & prostitutes there can’t be forced to have sex. Such complaints are mostly pooh-poohed by the police in India. See some of the root-causes for the under-reporting?
You are avoiding unpalatable data, since it interferes with your belief system.
Why should there be a comparitive study with the US? What would it accomplish? I already asked you that question, on why you have this complex – where everything is a contest with the US. There are so many more developed nations in the world. India has been blamed for something, so you need to feel better by bashing the US?
If you truly want such a study, there are several reputed organizations that publish their findings on the web, reporting human development & rights on several parameters.
Senthil – What Karthik & Sukumar say is this. JJ didn’t really compete with the males. She had special access to her mentor. They’ve mentioned this clearly.
Yes, India isn’t as bad as Taliban. Women, if & when they rise to the top, are permitted (at times grudgingly, at times willingly) to stay there. But, that’s not enough – and all of us, you included, seem to agree. What’s unfair in demanding more from the country?
Priya,
I think, you havent provided any references or statistics countering my point.
Let me answer to some important points. (i am not countering you.. rather countering the arguments raised by you)
/** There are many female actors who get paid a lot more than most male actors **/
This comparison itself is unfair. Why a top-level actress get the same salary as Top-level actors. Is it discrimination or not. Let’s be fair.
(Btw, i wont see it as discrimination.. However, the benchmark you laid, for discrimination applies to this condition as well)
/** How many female-oriented films are shot in India? **/
) hero.. and another film where our “Jothika” is the heroine, and no hero.. and the recent “Mozhi” film again starred by “Jo” 
Yup.. the same question on Hollywood films too.. Any statistics you have?
(atleast in india, the motherhood role is given equal or more importance in the star films.. in almost all films, Rajni & MGR would uphold motherhood more than them…)
In tamil, there are few films which are entirely focussed around women. “Punnakai Poovae”, deals with two heroines, and a (dummy!!
Ok Ok.. in the classical tamil films, we have sundarambaal, and other prominent heroines. sundarambal commanded equal salaries with the male actors on those days..
/*** Aren’t you sweet & innocent to believe the Indian statistics on rape? ***/
Let that statistics be challenged. Let’s assume there are ten times more crime than stated. But, i would like your views on the crimes against women, in that highly educated, most developed, matured nation. Why so much crime happen, inspite of all freedom, first class education, lot of wealth, and the supposed women empowerment.
As you are a woman, defending that nation, you should explain this, not just for countering my point.. But it would be a learning experience so that we could know, what lacked in US citizens inspite of first class education.
Senthil – Answer my questions first. You are conveniently side-stepping all of them, including the one on your “US Complex”. Probably you have no data or basis, so you are hiding under more questions posed to me.
You have to reach out to KB Sundarambal for women-oriented roles? How sad. Almost every single recent Hollywood movie – even the action flicks – have strong women characters or women-oriented movies. Why don’t you watch a bunch of Hollywood movies & understand the statistics? Its that easy. A “study” is not needed, as you’ll see clearly – unless you want to ask more questions, because answering my questions becomes embarassingly difficult.
The answer to your question on salaries for actors hinges on the above point. BTW – Mother Sentiment roles are caricatures, not characters.
/*** Racial problems these days in the US is nothing, if you consider the horrible way in which Dalits are treated in Indian villages. ***/
First of all, i dont deny this dalit abuse. It happens and is highly condemnable. But, how far are we right in expressing hatredness on our society.. (infact, we dont know whom to hate.. should it be brahmins.. or vyshyas or kshatriyas or patels or……).. while we analyse almost all problems faced in US, why dont we do the same with our dalit problem? Have we ever put any intellectual analysis of our problems? Never.. just plain & instant expression of hatred.. Will that going to solve this dalit issue? If the same newspaper has put intellectual article on finding out the reason for these issues, they would have done some justice to dalits.
On the other hand, i could easily explain the basic reason for western racism… and the havoc they caused to this world. and many americans realised this and changing themselves.
And i accept, that i never ever landed in to a plane. But, have you ever visited a typical dalit house? Or have you ever worked with dalits? Or what amount of time, have you spent with dalits, understanding the problem. Without ever having such experience, i dont know how could you represent the ground situation.
I would challenge, most of the articles by media are more or less a fabrication. In most of the cases, it would be a rivalry between communities, but the media blows out this as dalit issue.
Because, i have lived in the ground situation, and hence i know the truth. And very recently, i verified one such reporting of “The Hindu” first hand. The credibility and authenticity of major medias is questionable.. (so banking on their article is not acceptable to me)
Btw, i would like to pose another question.. The catholic organisation is spread world wide, and almost all of africa is christian nations. How many black ministers do they have? Or will they accept any brown or black skinned people as next pope..
(here shankara mutt is irrelevant.. they represent only brahmin sect.. and not acceptable to other communities)
Senthil – Believe me, I have in-depth experience with the depressed classes – dalits included. My parents even stayed for a few days with tribal people & shared their experiences with us. I haven’t worked with them on the fields, but I’ve helped them with their studies, fill application forms, start bank accounts, write letters – and yes, handle discrimination. Some of my friends were dalits & depressed classes – and I’ve eaten, played & studied with them.
Yes, I’m a brahmin. But – I’ve seen the joy & pain of the oppressed classes. Mostly, their pain. I changed my last name from “Iyer” to “Raju” (my father’s name) because what I saw deeply saddened me. That’s when I started reading about Periyar. I remember, some brahmins wouldn’t eat at our house – because poor dalits were trooping in & out of our kitchen.
But all that’s neither here nor there. Casteism is racism, what else? Affirmative action (reservation) seems to working somewhat in their favor, which is good. If you disagree with reservation – that’s a separate post altogether.
Christian & Catholic are not the same. There are many denominations in Christianity. Many of them have ordained women as priests. Regardless of what you think of the “Shankara Matt”, that’s the single most cohesive Hindu Matt that has presence everywhere in India. It has been around since Adi Shankara & he was a major influence in the Religious Reformation of Hinduism. Without him, Hinduism may be a distant memory. So, if you want to compare the Vatican with something here, you have Shankara Matt or the Ahobila Matt’s Jeeyar.
If you start comparing random women sanyasis in India to the Catholic church – that’s not a valid comparison. You need to compare organized religion with another organized religion.
Senthil – There are many Black, Indian & Latino arch bishops in the Catholic church. And in all other churches, important positions are occupied by non-whites.
Asking if a non-white pope would be accepted – is the same as asking if a non-brahmin would be permitted to become the Acharya or Jeeyar of the Shankara or Ahobila Matts. You have to compare apples with apples. See, a Latino very nearly became the pope this time. A non-brahmin heading 1 of these matts – forget it, being considered for even a leaf-node position in 1 of these matts – when will that happen?
Worse still, can a non-brahmin become a Classical Carnatic musician easily? For every Yesudas & Vijay Shiva, there are 1000 Mani Iyers, Ramanujam Iyengars, Sanjeevi Raos & Shankaran Namboodiris. (All South Indian Brahmin surnames, for people that don’t know). Its a veritable citadel that non-Brahmins can’t scale easily. Its truly heart-breaking.
Let me say this before my South Indian Brahmin brethren pounce on me for being a “blood traitor”. Discrimination isn’t relegated to the Brahmins – As an Iyer, I just decided to cite examples that I’m very familiar with, that’s all. Hope that clears the air.
/** And you can’t pretend that India has always been hunky-dory. Don’t white-wash the past! **/
There is nothing to be white washed. But, only the truth to be brought out. Infact, Indian history did not anything that is even closest like slave trade, or red indian massacre, or destruction of inca civilization, or jewish persecution, or “Goa” inquisition, or the british legacy of brutal exploitation & jallianwala bagh.
And i dont know what would you say for the history of americans, built on the corpses of Red-Indians. Till now, the native red-indians were marginalised and discriminated.
Infact, india has always been hinky-dory, which was thrown in to poverty by britishers. Prior to Britishers india was abundant in all wealth inspite of numerous wars and muslim invasion.
The vijayanagar empire was the richest empire during 12th century, visited by travellers from portugal and dutch. (http://www.gutenberg.org/dirs/etext02/fevch10.txt)
The chengalpet region cultivated Food grains of 12 tons per hectare, exceeding the world average today.
(http://dharampal.blogspot.com/2007/05/indian-agricultural-collapse-courtesy.html)
India had 1 lakh schools in Madras province, and also an equal number of schools in Bengal province, before british arrival, while the corresponding education level was only of thousands in the whole of england and that too restricted to nobels. The christian missionaries learned many concepts here and successfully reporoduced there in Britain. These details are available in British archivals, and compiled by Dharampal.
(www.dharampal.net)
India’s Benaras Observatory was the largest one of those times, and was listed in Britanica Encyclopedia till 1832.
So, there is every reason for me to believe, that India had been the horry-dorry.
(And i am sure, you would either ignore, or ridicule this..)
Priya.. Its really a great feeling to read about your parents helping dalit families. And from a brahmin family, its one of unthinkable, which your parent had boldly did.
And i came across lot of brahmins in the past few years, who had the same passion as your father. In Tiruvanmiyur, one of the brahmin priest told, that he would go to slum area in Saidapet (I hope, you could imagine the condition there), to do kumbabishekam in a temple there.
From this, what i feel is that we are having completely different personal experiences on this subject.
For example, i volunteered an organisation here in coimbatore, during weekends for few weeks. Without any infrastructure, these full time volunteers would go through remotest part of nilgiri villages, and provide medicines to those people. They trained some local people who completed 10th std on how to treat people, and provide medicines free of cost. This is regularly happening now every month. Apart from that, they would organise medical camps for all tribal communities in both Nilgiris and kothagiri.
I accompanied them on two occasions. One for giving medicines, and interacted with those local tribal people, (badugas, kothars and irulars).
The ground situation there is completely different from what we perceive. They are sheduled tribes, but not persecuted by any one. Infact they were living there without any hindrance from plain people, for thousands of years. Except for Badigas, who fled there due to persecution by Tippu sultan, kothars and irulars were native people of that area.
In another instance, i had an opportunity to visit Doda chief, for organising medical camp in “Thalai Kundha” near ooty. They also have been living peacefully, and not discriminated. I am telling this from their own account.
Similarly, during my child hood, we were doing agriculture, although my father was professing civil engineering. and our village had diverse communities, like Potmen, washermen, paraiyar, pallars, sakkiliars (i am mentioning purely for names, and no offence meant), naavidhars, aasaaris, and a teacher family belonging to pillai jaati. There are few other jaatis like blacksmith (kollar), poosaris (non-brahmn priest).
This was the social setup till 90′s. Whenever there is rain, we would call the labourers from SC communities, and start cultivating rice & maize. I used to work with those people, in the fields, and so my father and mother whenever there is harvest. And the wage would be the share of the produce obtained from harvest.
Although not wealthy, everyone had their food, and no one suffered from hunger.
Then came the PCR act. and those officers belonging to SC community. and along with politicians. The situation entirely changed after that, although still, our village is relatively peaceful. Those officers, used PCR act for the wrong reason, and the rivalry started.
This issue has been more severe in southern districts of tamil nadu. But in most cases, the cause of the problem is not analysed. ( i did a bit of research in to that and will do a post on my findings).
And the interesting fact is that much of the BC’s and OBC’s were once the rulers. My jaati has been listed as BC today, but belonged to a community which was administering villages earlier in western tamilnadu. My father had told “the brahmins in the village, will fix an appropriate date based on astrology, calculating rainy seasons, and the villagers will start sowing seeds.
Similarly, in Kumbakonam and Thanjavur areas, the brahmins were living a simple life, professing their priestly activities. They were not allowed to earn, nor to own property. Since they sacrificed everything, they were held at higher positions and since they were knowledged on shastraas, they were appointed as ministers and scholars by the king.
Our tradition social structure was like this. The warriors were top of the society, who rule. Then comes scholars and learned men. THen comes the local chiefs and farmers. In that order, the merchants and traders had been at the bottom most, in order of preference.
Prior to britishers, in every village, there is no concept called real estate. The whole village belongs to a temple. And it was like a socialistic concept, where everyone is taken care of.
I really dont know, why brahmins were targetted for social order, while the real practictioners were present day BC’s and OBC’s. Infact, the concept of untouchability was universal among all communities.
In my village, one SC community would not even drink a water from another SC community. Everyone practised it for some reason (which i am analysing), and the communities which progressed tend to dominate others.
There were more to understand from our history. If you get time, please read the findings of dharampal. (www.dharampal.net).
Regarding this women empowerment, i will describe, the status of women in my community, and also in some other communities, in my blog or later.
Senthil,
What do i mean by merit – quite simple. A grassroots political worker in a political party in India, coming up through the ranks and becoming a leader. That is by merit. While it is correct that USA has a different political structure, it is possible for a woman to come up the ranks of either party and acquire powerful posts. Yes, the US President’s post is still off limits, but there have been innumerable State Governors (equivalent of our Chief Ministers) who are women. As i said before, for this type of thing in India is close to impossible. I think you misunderstood my point as JJ herself being not having capabilities. She definitely has leadership qualities and as you say maybe she lacks the maturity and makes a lot of mistakes. Hope you understood my point about merit.
Your most recent comment is very interesting. Here is the problem i have with your line of thinking – it appears that you are arguing if there are no problems then everything should have been fine. This is why the caste system is insidious, it has deluded people in believing that the state they were born in is all they can aspire to. It took a Mahatma Gandhi and a Periyar to awaken our people from their stupor. As Priya says, most women in India still don’t know what their rights are and maybe meekly following what they have been told to do. So the fact that women are not protesting cannot lead to the conclusion that women are happy.
Again, please don’t bring up some isolated instances like Rani Jhansi and conclude that India didn’t have or doesn’t have chauvinism. Nothing is farther from the truth.
Senthil..
There is no question on the effiecency of JJ or MAyatwati as mentioned by Sukumar…they must be good hence people vote for them.
But the question is how did they come up the ladder that is question…are society whether we like it or not is biased and it is not community specfic…i guess it as to do with anthropolgy…
Coming to second point about caste….forget a non brahmin becoming a head of ahobila mutt or Shankara mutt..will people accept a brahmin lady as a head…non brahmin lady is really out of question…?
Ithink so some level of bias does exist in all of us
Senthil,
I agree with a lot of what Sukumar and Priya have written. Let me try and state in my own words.
Two wrongs do not make a right – Yes – there is discrimination, glass-ceiling, “good ol boys” network in USA that prevents the rise of women in various fields. And yes, there is race based discrimination – some out right and some subtle in the US. What has this got to do with what is happening in India?
India should not be satisfied with status-quo or things (reforms in this case) moving at a snails place, justifying in our minds the evil that exists in another country.
It is OK to point finger’s at other people’s mess, but let us first work at being less messier than them!!. I hope you agree.
Ganesh
Senthil – Thanks. I look forward to your post on the status of women.
Karthik, Ganesh & Sukumar – Thanks for your comments.
My feelings exactly. We should first accept the situation, warts & all. Then, and only then, can we move towards a better tomorrow.
Sukumar & Karthick,
I agree to your points. They are valid.
But, my query is How do we expect them to have been, when the political culture in india is that much nasty? What’s the scope of a normal women in that circumstances?
Should we consider these points before concluding on this issue? Or should we simply blame ignoring everything else?
Secondly, as sukumar agreed, the political culture in US is entirely different from Indian Politics. This is an important point. Any one can rise based on their merit, only if there is right environment.
In such case, whom should we blame for having such bad political culture?
To quote an analogy, there are lot of skilled persons in our company. But, only if right environment exists they can come through merit. How would they behave, if the environment in our company is typical of a government concern. (in such case, whom can we blame?)
Please excuse me, if my questions are silly.
Karthick & Priya,
Regarding shankara mutt, it is already abused, and covered in your accusations..
.. my question is that when the same situation happens in two organisations, why target only one.
I just asked that pope question, only to highlight this point.
Its very easy to say, “We should see ourself first, before we point fingers at others”.
My intention is not to point fingers at others. But, when you compare US and india on Women’s statistics, as priya had done, certainly i have a reason in showcasing the other side also. In this case, arent you indirectly defending US and western nations, and in turn project them as role model?
As i said earlier, let us not take all those questions as counter questions.. Rather, i would like to place those question to understand, “Why so much of crimes take place and so much racial abuse, inspite of first class education, and a matured society as projected by everyone?”
Am i reasonable enough to place such question?
Sukumar & Priya,
I dont say, everything is fine in india. I am stating for the third time in our discussion so far, that what priya had said in this post is entirely true.
My contend is that this cannot be generalised as a whole, and project as if this situation persists everywhere. Particularly in India, since the culture changes with every 50KM, there are numerous practices, social order, that there will be always ups and downs through out the country. By raising this basic rights question, ignoring all these aspects, i feel, we are deviating from the ultimate purpose..
For what are we striving to uphold women’s rights? And who had defined all these women’s rights, and for what set of people are these defined? What are the social and cultural implications?
For example, i heard, that in spain, a woman can roam naked in public places. (I may be wrong).
And also, any one have sex at any place in their society. Even in the road side. That’s the basic right given to all their citizens. (i heard it through my friend, who went there for an onsite. Please excuse me, if i am wrong here)
So, what if the same spanish woman, asserts her right in other european nations, like Italy, or in Vatican. Or, lets say in New York.
Ofcourse, there are always some basic universal rights, which should upholded for all women. But, the purpose of all these are for the welfare and happiness of the women. And this is largely tied to one’s culture and community.
I feel, the baseline of our thinking is entirely varied. (probably at 180 degree.. and may be because of the environment we are brought up.)
I am really feeling to be odd man out here, and i dont know, if i am causing you all any inconvenience frustration, with my questions.
And generally speaking, if we believe, in certain values, we are free to follow ourselves. But, what i found in Priya’s post is that she has fixed certain sets of values which she believed, and in turn, applied herself for the whole nation, and then blamed them for not coming up to her values.
Isnt it an intellectual superiority? In what way are we authorised to prescribe values for the society?
For example, my sister got married two months before, and now she chose being a housewife today. But, in priya’s point of view, my sister is not aware of her rights. ie, priya is prescribing some values in which she believe, and in turn impose it on my sister. And the next level, she accuses and blames her.
Lets say, priya is right to some extent. My sister could have sacrificed some of her aspirations for the welfare of her family. But, dont she have the right to do so? What’s wrong in her, preferring family welfare over her individual rights?
Long back, i read an article in a tamil newspaper supplement (dinamani).. one author quoted, that sudha murthy was so ridiculed by most of the feminist, for taking the decision to look after the family…
Cant people take decisions on their own, even if it means sacrificing their personal preferences.
In UK, there are lot of newspapers, which criticise indian women, for preferring family welfare than their individual rights..
Suppose, after my marriage, if my wife, decides to look after family, its our rights to take such decision.. The concerned persons has to decide on that, and not the media or some third persons..
I just have a small request.. Dont categorise me, as though i am whitewashing everything. There are lot of crimes, that has to be fought outrightly.. eveteasing, violence on women, discrimination as priya had stated in this post, etc ..
There is no doubt in that.. but, treating everything as discriminatory, or assuming that if a women does not confirm to our values, then she is suffering, is entirely wrong.
We have to see not on individual rights, but on the welfare of women.. If the individual rights brings so much trouble to a women, then she can better leave it ..
Senthil – You never give up, do you? You get an “A” grade for effort.
Sadly, you don’t seem to read any of our responses properly. Either that, or you are – as I’ve mentioned before – twisting what I said. And that’s becoming tiresome. You are asking the same questions again & again. Your strategy seems to be – tire the opponent out when there’s a paucity of points on your side.
Particularly about the pope. The same is NOT happening in both the organizations. There is WAY TOO MUCH DISCRIMINATION in India. You can face it or duck under the table. You seem to be ducking under the table!
You can ask any number of questions about the developed nations. But – the western nations seem to be doing a better job than us when it comes to discrimination. For some strange reason, you have a tough time digesting that & appreciating them for that. While at the same time, you want us to turn the other way when there are problems in India. Work thru these double standards of yours.
You are ok with India being imperfect, but US should be? That’s like embracing a “D” student, while questioning an “A” student for not getting an “A+”.
Why is discrimination such a hard concept for you to understand? Repeat after me: The opposite of discrimination is “equality”. Take the case of a woman who wants to go around naked. If the country permits a man to go around naked, women can expect the same right. You should learn how to stop judging the morals of people.
What happiness is, is not defined by the community. Its defined by the individual. Some people are conservative & hence go with what the social norms are. Others use their own ethical compass. That’s what you are failing to understand. Completely.
You are the one saying – without data – that 99% of women want to follow their husbands around. I disagree until you show me proof. If your sister knows all her options & chooses to be a home-maker, that’s fine. Problem is – and I’m repeating myself & Sukumar again – most women don’t know they can choose.
You are the one prescribing a certain dose for people! And I’m quoting you here: “We have to see not on individual rights, but on the welfare of women.. If the individual rights brings so much trouble to a women, then she can better leave it “. That you accuse me of dictating terms to everyone would be laughable, if it were not so aggravating. Look at yourself & what you are saying. Don’t cotradict yourself so much.
You are scared of individual rights. Who are you to decide what “welfare” for women is? That’s a definition that each person has to make for himself/herself. Its that simple. All I want is for people to take informed decisions.
Senthil – And 1 more thing. Quoting you here: “We have to see not on individual rights, but on the welfare of women.. If the individual rights brings so much trouble to a women, then she can better leave it “. You think you need to decide what women should & shouldn’t better leave. That’s the essence of males wanting to dominate.
What about men? Let’s take away their rights also. At least then, it would be a totalitarian setup, but at least all human beings will be equal.
Senthil,
This discussion has been so heated I was reluctant to get in. But I just want to add one point. Tell me what is the difference between fasting and starving. When you have a choice of eating and you choose not to, then you can call it fasting. It is considered a very good discipline. However when you don’t have food to eat you cannot pass it of as fasting, right. The right term you use in this case is starving. The key difference here is ‘choice’. People criticizing Sudha Murthy is complete rubbish. She was an educated and empowered women who made an informed choice. So does your sister have every right to choose. Whereas if you don’t give women that choice, you don’t educate them, you don’t give them the same opportunities for success, you don’t empower them and then say it is their choice, how fair is that.
You can only claim that women are choosing family over career if you give them equal opportunities and they still do it. Do you think majority of women in India have that freedom of choice?
Archana – Bravo! Brilliant. Well Said. I couldn’t have put it better than this. That’s the crux of the whole issue.
Senthil,
I am responding to your comment http://www.sastwingees.org/2008/01/09/the-many-ills-of-india-inc/#comment-1460
Yes, the political situation is nasty but it is not equally nasty to men and women. It doesn’t let non-politically-connected women to rise up, so it is discriminatory.
Who is to blame for this situation? Very simple, it is all of us Indian people. All i am looking for is for us all to accept that there are problems, and feel responsible for the situation we are in, and take steps to correct the situation. Instead, whenever someone points out a problem about India, we do one of the following:
1. Oh the media is biased, they only show negative things about India.
2. Oh Indian women are weaker, they need our protection, these western-educated people don’t understand our glorious Indian culture that has been around for 1,973 million years (quoted from this website which claims to be the protector of vedic culture http://www.thevedicfoundation.org/the_true_history_and_the_religion_of_india/index.html). The fact that human beings have been around only for the past 100-150,000 years is lost on them!
3. Yeah there are problems. So what? Discrimination, rape, violence everything exists in the West also. So why are you all pointing your fingers at India alone. Why don’t you spend your time attacking the USA and other western nations?
In your comments, i see these 3 basic responses repeating themselves.
As an Indian, i am comfortable to state that India has problems, and that I am also responsible for these problems probably indirectly as an Indian and I also think I can help take some corrective actions, in however small a manner it may be.
The question is are you?
You ask somewhere above, who defines these rights etc.? I found it necessary to point to you the Universal Declaration of Human Rights that the entire United Nations (which includes India) have agreed upon.
It is at this page http://www.un.org/Overview/rights.html
Please read this carefully and figure out for yourself, whether all Indians of all castes, all genders, all sexual orientations, all ages have these rights?
So this human rights issue is not a biased-media’s creation but a universal truth.
Sukumar – Beautifully articulated response.
What amazes me is this. Senthil is choking so much on gender discrimination. Imagine what his reaction would be to Ageism & Sexual Orientation sensitivity. He has adroitly avoided answering my questions on that so far.
I feel sad that I didn’t check your post earlier. Wow! so many sparks flying and I didn’t put my 2 cents in
All kidding aside, here are my thoughts!
I have many weak points and one of the key one is poor introspection. The way I read this, Senthil is suggesting that my brothers and sisters unite and be the king in his nation.
Priya’s original post wasn’t comparing India to any other nation. It was asking for introspection and was asking for change from serious discrimination and lack of understanding of what discrimination is.
Senthil’s response seem to suggest “we would ask the women colleagues to leave earlier, in most of the times.. its not about discrimination.. its one form of goodwill and care, that a male colleague shows towards women” – really senthil! Wow! Have you given that same care and goodwill to other male colleagues? How would we feel if women want to provide that care and goodwill to men and ask us to go home early and protect ourselves? BTW, when we get home, we better get that food ready and fresh for the whole family, huh!
As society, discrimination is prevalent everywhere. Does that mean we should stop working on improving the situation? Heck No! It’s easy to say, I won’t improve because it’s flawed everywhere and there’s no point talking about it. If that were the case, we would still be showing some of that “goodwill and care” to slaves and they would be really happy being a slave.
First step in introspection (as a nation) – don’t assume everything you are doing is right! That would be self serving. First step in changing things – don’t look to see if other’s are changing or how worse/screwed up others are. If we do, there will be no change.
It’s easy for men to say that women’s place is at home and they like it there. Look! they are really happy!
I am sometimes reminded by my wife when I offer an opinion on something feminine – “No uterus, no opinion”. I think we should follow that approach when it comes to making decisions on/for women.
Priya’s post stopped me in my tracks and made me really think about what are the things that I am doing today that are discriminating and what can I do to change it. From that perspective, hats off to her. Senthil’s response made me realize how uphill a task we have at hand.
Thanks Priya.
Sreedhar – Thanks for your comment.
I agree with you completely. Any social setup where the “role” of a person is fixed, where people don’t have the freedom to decide what they should become, a setup where changes can’t be made – that’s nothing but a stagnant pool of water. No point in squawking that its actually a pool of attar of roses, bottle & try to sell it in Paris – then blame the US for poor sales.
Truth sets us free. Then, we can all try to solve the problem.
Archana’s reply is most convincing to me. I agree to the core.
Sukumar.. your reply made me realise the faults in my argument.. Thanks for your patient explanation..
Sridhar.. no women has asked me to go earlier
.. although hilarious & a gentle mock at me, i enjoyed your comment.. btw, i wont make yours an uphill task.. (although a bit late, i am quick to understand you 
)
Priya.. sorry for bothering you.. ( for tiring you
) .. (Ageism & gender preference…… its plain that it exists all over .. no ambiguity on that ) ..
PS:
If any one is surprised on my sudden change, the credit goes to archana, sukumar & sridhar.. (just plain analysis of the issue without mixing emotions… )
A a cynical and humorous rant. Someone who probably shares the same agony that I do when people fail to see the widespread discrimination. Priya, totally agree! Something that is commonly ignored is the role of the family in encouraging a more pluralistic view towards gender equality. There are many practices at home where seeds of such discrimination and incorrect view points are engendered. Not much importance is given to them and yet, they go a long way in forming a boys views vis-a-vis himself amidst girls, as well as that of a girl. Grassroot causes are almost always ignored.
Why does a 40 year old think he is superior to any woman he comes across merely by virtue of his being a man? Because his mom probably didn’t whack him enough
Sriram – Thanks for your comment.
Excellent point on the role of the family. This is how arcane views are impressed firmly in the minds of the next generation. I remember a boy once telling me – “You are just a girl. Why do you want to be an Engineer?”. Happily for me, his mom whupped his ass for saying that.
My post is a rant, perhaps – but its not cynical. A cynic is someone who’s needlessly & habitually negative. I’m not a cynic. I’m someone who’s exposing the negatives that are already there. I’m ready to highlight positives wherever they are.
Wow.. Great discussion.
It is sort of enlightenment to me. I have been biased. I believe that lot of women have taken discrimination for granted. They have to be explained what their rights are. Lot of men’s mindset has to change. Thanks Priya for bringing it up. Archana drove the point home superbly. Thanks Sukumar for pointing me to the Universal Declaration of human rights.
Great blog.. The discussion that ensues after every post is superb. Knowledge is indeed scrupmtious..
Ananth – Thanks for your comment.
Yes, you are right. Some of the worst things women have to endure are from other women. That’s what is so sad.
I also thought Archana’s distinction between fasting & starvation was superb. She has clearly given this a lot of thought.
Priya..
I am not sure, how archana’s interpretation fits in to discrimination concept..
(Before proceeding, i want to make it clear, i am just expressing my interpretation.. neither defending nor opposing any ideas.)
Fasting is voluntary — no problem and no ambiguity..
Starving??? When i starve out of poverty, am i discriminated?
Discrimination is when some person or group of persons forces one in to starvation preferring others..
Most of Indian Women suffered – There is no doubt.. Most women suffered..
Most of Indian women discriminated — ????
Who discriminates? (the answer society is too generalied.. may be helpful for our satisfaction, but wont help in finding a solution)
Let me look in to some data..
Till 1980′s, most of marriages in India are arranged. Most women are married before 18 years.
And most of the marriages happen b/w relatives. ie, most women married to their own relatives or to some known person within the same village or from some nearby villages.
I dont have any statistics on this. But, i just came to the above conclusion through based on following inference.
By 1980′s 80% of India was rural.. Only Primary education was available to the common people. Not much engg colleges, or other degree colleges. (No. of Engg college bursted when i finished my schooling.. For my previous batch, not much college was available.. ie, if passed out of my schooling, 1 year before, i would not have got my seat)
So, most probably, that the traditional village situation preserved and hence the above situation could be correct.
By traditional village situation means, the girl married to a boy, takes over the family duties of the boy’s family.
In Tamilnadu, the societal setup was like this.. the daughter is to acquire movable properties, and the son immovable property. When the marriage was fixed, since the girl goes to another family, the parents provided the girl with golds & ornaments and certain amount of money, to compensate for giving away her right to her brothers.
In my family, my mother was given some 30 pounds of gold, and certain amount of cash for marriage. Same for my mother’s sister. Few years back, they voluntarily gave away their right to their only brother.
This was the arrangement in most of the cases.
There is one more thing. The son of a family has to look after his sister through out the life. So every year, he has to shell away certain amount of his wealth to his sisters equally.
And till now, my father visits his sister’s family, during every pongal, and gives some money. (on those days, it was paddy, with some money)
(It may resemble “Kilakku seemai” film.. but its the situation in rural sides)
I dont know how its in other communities.. particularly in brahminical sets.. ( I heard, that in brahminical families, the girl’s family has to bear most of the burden.. few months back, a brahmin neighbour got married… he said, the girls family will arrange everything and he has to just go for “Thaali kattu”..)..
priya could shed some light on this..
So, when current opportunities are not available, and people just followed tradition, i feel, it may not be right to conclude that all were discriminated..
Probably, women at cities may have faced such atrocities, or discrimination, or all sufferings.. but cities constituted minuscule population of india few decades back..
I am concluding anything here.. but just sharing what i interpreted..
Let’s consider the past few years.. More number of colleges, schools are opened. Law and order improved… There was social stability. there was education, and awareness happening..
and as a result, many of the women took up higher studies, went to jobs, acquired various positions.. It all happened because of the aware of their parents, and because, their parents also supported and encouraged them..
Till today, whether boy or girl, they have to depend on their parents till they finish college education and that too get a job.. In such case, the entire credit should go to previous generation fathers and mothers. Only because of their support, most of the women are able to improve.
Instead of viewing it as hero villain concept, we should view it as a development with everyone’s participation..
Just to give a comparative study from my own relative circle.. My mother’s sister had 3 daughters.. And today, all three completed Engineering.
Can we see it as “They achieved this against all odds” ? Certainly no.. they could achieve only with support of their parents, and to some extent from the society.. Infact, their parents were in heavy debt, when they finished schooling, and opted for engineering.. Since all those who lend money were relatives, they did not make it an issue as it destabilise their family.. My father is one in those who lend considerable money a decade back.
And all this happened because, there were overall improvement, like more engineering colleges, awareness, and particularly more opportunities that are available..
Suppose, let us assume, there were not much colleges around.. These three daughters would have been married to some family after finishing schooling.. This is what happened with my mother & her sister..
So, what would we call a society, which embraces changes, and adjusts itself when getting awareness.
What would we call the society, which came forward to send their womenfolks to colleges, and allowed them to work, when there were conducible environment?
Is it not a strength of our society, which has progressed when given an opportunity.
Most of the women in our company came from the society, which we are criticising much.. and they all came, out of the support of the society, and NOT due to some illusionary down the earth saviour, whom we are think had released all these women from the clutches.
That’s why i am insisting on correct attitude towards our society..
If we say, our society was ignorant, its cent percent true..
If we say, our society was backward, i could accept it to some extent..
But, its really depressing, if we fit everything of ours in to discriminitory concept..
Instead of cursing ourselves, let’s appreciate our strength..
There is lot of hope.. A society, which has progressed so much, withing few years of opening up the opporunities, will definitely progress in future.. No society is 100% perfect.. so imperfection is not our curse.. rather its natural phenomenon..
we are imperfect, and we have lot of drawbacks.. But, equally important is, that we have progressed so much.. and equally important is out of our own self, and not from some third party..
Very relevant post Priya! A couple of years back my dad wanted to shift jobs but he was rejected at some interviews owing to his age. Infact my dad is twice as productive as me or my brother(who are in our 20′s) and he was 45+ when he applied for those positions. This was just a personal incident. There could be so many more cases of age discrimination like this.
Discrimination against women is a totally different story about which as you pointed out we can write pages. Any kind of discrimination based on gender, age, marital status or religion/race is definitely BAD.
Good food for thought.
I don’t know if this link is totally related to the post but here was a talk by writer Isabelle Allende
http://www.ted.com/index.php/talks/view/id/204 where she talks of feminism, passion and women. I love the concluding lines of her speech where she says even the most poorest of men has someone to abuse and that is a “woman”
Saraswathi – Thanks for your comment.
What happened to your dad is just too bad. He won’t just be more productive – he’ll also be more knowledgeable, more effective (not just efficient). Such ageism is considerably less in the developed nations.
Thanks for sending me Allende’s link. What we need in India are strong leaders to front the feminism movement. Sure, there were women leaders soon after independence, but we need some more now to unite all women.